Yeah, but the weight is going downwards which may not be good.
Possibly, but this may result in some problems.
Possibly, but this may result in some problems.
MSF-L Girago Dragooon SA165EWD (Attack Mode)
Sad this didn't make people look into the idea we might just have been using SA165 in the wrong mode because I think that might be the case. The normal mode doesn't have particularly spectacular LAD, ZGA mode on the other hand, well, the results are here. I think it's a matter where people's expectations fuel what they test and stuff like this gets missed, but maybe I've only tried too limited a set of parts myself so I'd be interested in thoughts.
FWIW Wyvang does seem to work fine on this, but I only have Revizer, Killerken and Orojya to compare to.
FWIW Wyvang does seem to work fine on this, but I only have Revizer, Killerken and Orojya to compare to.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
Eeeeehhh... I wouldn't use Wyvang if I had other options available to me. The recoil scares me, LOL.
Revizer and Killerken are really good on this, and Genbull can work well too, but Girago is definitely top-notch from my experience.
Revizer and Killerken are really good on this, and Genbull can work well too, but Girago is definitely top-notch from my experience.
![[Image: 68vfxj.jpg]](https://oi57.tinypic.com/68vfxj.jpg)
Honestly dunno if Wyvang is much more recoil prone than Killerken on Dragooon, but I haven't tried it against defense that much. Really dislike Revizer's poor balance on Dragooon (and killerken is okay but there is one segment a little heavier than the rest from what I can tell).
Any thoughts on the SA165 thing I mentioned?
Any thoughts on the SA165 thing I mentioned?
Yup. I was in the other room doing a few rounds of testing to confirm what I was going to say.
TBH, Attack Mode is pretty much flat-out-better with EWD in terms of precession/LAD. However, with Dragooon SA165RDF customs, due to RDF's height which does not line up perfectly in Attack Mode, it's really kinda impossible to tell which mode is actually better in terms of Precession/LAD (Normal mode is plainly better defensively, though, which is why I originally went with that when I first tested it).
SA165's normal mode does have the advantage of higher Stamina on Dragooon customs, though, which allows it to OS same-spin opponents better, which can be extremely beneficial in a Dragooon-heavy environment.
Again, you also come to the point where you have to decide if Attack mode's superior performance against opposite-spin is enough to render Normal mode "uncompetitive." There are some benefits to using Normal mode over Attack mode in certain situations, but you have to weigh the consequences and decide if they're too much to consider it a competitive option.
Another thing I think people overlook a lot, is that "competitive" doesn't necessarily mean "absolute, top-notch, flat-out best." Competitive means that it's something you can take to a tournament and do well with against skilled players and good customs (of course, there is a point where you need to draw the line when X is obviously better than Y to the point where you wouldn't consider using X, but still). SA165's Normal mode is certainly a viable tournament choice. IMO leaving it on there would be fine.
TBH, Attack Mode is pretty much flat-out-better with EWD in terms of precession/LAD. However, with Dragooon SA165RDF customs, due to RDF's height which does not line up perfectly in Attack Mode, it's really kinda impossible to tell which mode is actually better in terms of Precession/LAD (Normal mode is plainly better defensively, though, which is why I originally went with that when I first tested it).
SA165's normal mode does have the advantage of higher Stamina on Dragooon customs, though, which allows it to OS same-spin opponents better, which can be extremely beneficial in a Dragooon-heavy environment.
Again, you also come to the point where you have to decide if Attack mode's superior performance against opposite-spin is enough to render Normal mode "uncompetitive." There are some benefits to using Normal mode over Attack mode in certain situations, but you have to weigh the consequences and decide if they're too much to consider it a competitive option.
Another thing I think people overlook a lot, is that "competitive" doesn't necessarily mean "absolute, top-notch, flat-out best." Competitive means that it's something you can take to a tournament and do well with against skilled players and good customs (of course, there is a point where you need to draw the line when X is obviously better than Y to the point where you wouldn't consider using X, but still). SA165's Normal mode is certainly a viable tournament choice. IMO leaving it on there would be fine.
Didn't ZGA Mode generally get better defensive results too though? I've always found it slightly better (I guess it's kinda a lowering the centre of gravity thing maybe? Not sure). I can see it depending on height matchups etc, but I was getting that even when I could get under it when playing around with the idea of throwing it into Limited (before I ran into MF-H Libra SA165RF (ZGA Mode) and quickly abandoned that idea).
Normal mode's superior stamina is only going to come into play for Dragooon at least against left spin opponents, so it seems kinda redundant to me.
Yeah, I agree, I guess for the list, then, we should just remove mentions of mode entirely from Stamina (maybe even the Duo stamina customs, seeing as it seems to be better to go with it in ZGA mode against Dragooon). That said, I think it's something people should be aware of, so perhaps a Zero G Attack Mode>Normal Mode addition would be useful. Kei seemed surprised by it working for this combo, from memory, so we should probably run the idea past him and see if he has actual objections, too, but it would definitely have my support - good find.
Normal mode's superior stamina is only going to come into play for Dragooon at least against left spin opponents, so it seems kinda redundant to me.
Yeah, I agree, I guess for the list, then, we should just remove mentions of mode entirely from Stamina (maybe even the Duo stamina customs, seeing as it seems to be better to go with it in ZGA mode against Dragooon). That said, I think it's something people should be aware of, so perhaps a Zero G Attack Mode>Normal Mode addition would be useful. Kei seemed surprised by it working for this combo, from memory, so we should probably run the idea past him and see if he has actual objections, too, but it would definitely have my support - good find.
Well, that's what I'm saying. Higher Stamina against left-spin opponents.
Our meta here in NC is absurdly Dragooon heavy, so using SA165 in its normal mode has quite a large benefit here, since at least half the matches are Dragooon Dragooon anyway.
He did? Okie dokie then. I'm kinda waiting for someone to spur discussion in the advanced forum on the tier list, LOL. I have a draft worked up that everyone agrees on for now, and seeing as we've had some major developments in testing since the last update I think now would be a good time to get a new list up.
Our meta here in NC is absurdly Dragooon heavy, so using SA165 in its normal mode has quite a large benefit here, since at least half the matches are Dragooon Dragooon anyway.
He did? Okie dokie then. I'm kinda waiting for someone to spur discussion in the advanced forum on the tier list, LOL. I have a draft worked up that everyone agrees on for now, and seeing as we've had some major developments in testing since the last update I think now would be a good time to get a new list up.
Ah, fair enough.
I've mentioned a few things in the public list thread that still need discussing, and I think we need more input on some of the face updates for that (not really the place to discuss it here). I'll bring it up there once I think we've got a good enough consensus on the list in the public thread.
I've mentioned a few things in the public list thread that still need discussing, and I think we need more input on some of the face updates for that (not really the place to discuss it here). I'll bring it up there once I think we've got a good enough consensus on the list in the public thread.