@BeyBouncer You wanna not be a complete douche about it? Do you honestly believe the effect of W145 is really a thing? I mean seriously, how much upward/downward force do you think a piece of plastic is going to make? I've tried it and it works great so ...

He wasn't exactly being super polite, but that wasn't really necessary. In the wise words of someone, "You get more bees with honey,".

On the topic of Pheonix, I still don't really think it should get a spot. Even if it changed the recoil, it still doesn't exactly show a superb win-rate within both of the 50 trials.

@[Honey]...

I was doing some tests with LW160 on a left spin stamina combo; Ronin Killerken/Genbu LW160 WD and (my stadium is a counterfeit) Killerken did good, but I think a MSF and EWD would help. I think this is nice for Limited as a spin equalizer and possible left spinning stamina type. Could somebody test this possibly?

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૮(•ᴥ•)ა

Not a huge change? Phoenic's win rate increased by almost 50% - that's pretty huge. Libra's rate of KO got cut in half, too, so it obviously decreased Phoenic's recoil significantly as well.

I acknowledged that, though, that's the thing.

I still don't know why people can't understand that simple thing... W145 goes on RIGHT spin, LW160 goes on LEFT. If you put LW160 on Right or W145 on Left, the effect will be totally different.

The use of LW160 and W145 isn't limited to Beyblades that spin in the same direction that their blades/wings face; if used in the spin direction opposite to the direction that the wings face, or that the part's name states, yes, the part's proficiency will be hindered slightly, but the "down force" effect it produces will still exist to some degree. (See http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LW160-di...pid1167403 (I still need confirmation from other member's tests...))

Tracks with wing designs have always played a much larger role in battles between two same-spin Stamina Beyblades with mostly circular and uninterrupted circumferences, most of which have been Right-Spin (e.g. Earth, Duo, etc.) until recently. Since no particularly circular and smooth Left-Spin Wheels existed in the Metal Fight series preceding the invention of Synchrome, Left-Spin use of wing-gimmicked Tracks was less efficient for "Spin-Stealing" because it doesn't capitalize on late game precession or offer any [slightly] Defensive qualities (e.g. ED145, TR145).

In the past (and to an extent now), Left-Spin vs Left-Spin Stamina mirror matches were extremely impractical, since all that there was to work with were Meteo L-Drago II, L-Drago Destroy and L-Destroy Guardian. Mirror match Stamina battles between two of the same of any of those Wheels would most likely be too short to gather any consistent or meaningful data from due to not being as perfectly circular as previously released Right-Spin Metal Wheels, resulting in early KOs between either of the two, or quick out-spins as the result of side rubber-on-rubber contact.

Before I conducted the LW160-160 mirror Stamina matchup I linked above, I considered using two sets of Killerken Dragooon Synchromes for my Wheels, but I decided against it because I figured that the weight discrepancies between my Takara-Tomy Dragooon and Killerken and my Hasbro Dragoon and Kraken would likely influence the results more than either Track would. Plus, since Left-Spin Stamina rarely uses any other Tracks than SA165 or F230 in competitive situations, whereas 160 is occasionally used on Duo Stamina combos, I ultimately concluded that the most relevant test to conduct would be a Right-Spin matchup between LW160 and 160.

I was doing some tests with LW160 on a left spin stamina combo; Ronin Killerken/Genbu LW160 WD and (my stadium is a counterfeit) Killerken did good, but I think a MSF and EWD would help. I think this is nice for Limited as a spin equalizer and possible left spinning stamina type. Could somebody test this possibly?

Basically, since Left-Spin Stamina combos on 160 are nonexistent, the only relevant combos I could imagine a Left-Spin Synchrome on LW160 being tested against is ____ Dragooon SA165EWD or B:D, possibly to see how Left-Spin Synchromes on Stamina setups similar to Right-Spin Stamina combos interact with and perform against Left-Spin Stamina combos designed specifically to equalize with or spin-steal from Right-Spin Stamina.

Also, why no AD145/W145 with Meteo in stamina? Idk if there was official tests but I always thought AD145 was the best, even slightly above ED145 and W145.

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-W145-Discussion

As for why no AD145 or W145 on Meteo, see my second paragraph above.

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Spoiler (Click to View)

This is what we all want, Brad.

MSF-H Phoenic Dark Knight R145RF Vs. MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF

PDK: 8(All KO)
EA: 12(3KO, 9OS)
Ties: 0

Phoenic Win Percentage: 40%

MF-H Pegasis R145RF Vs. MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF

Pegasis: 5(All KO)
EA: 15(1KO, 14OS)
Ties: 0

Phoenic Win Percentage: 25%

MF-H LLD R145RF Vs. MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF

LLD: 11(All KO)
EA: 9(All OS)
Ties: 0

Phoenic Win Percentage: 55%

MSF-H Bahamoote Dark Knight CH120RF Vs. MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF

BDK: 14(All KO)
EA: 6(All OS)
Ties: 0

Phoenic Win Percentage: 70%

With The Supreme One and Leone19's tests and my decent ones I think Phoenic should be tested further. It did do better than Pegasis but not the case in everyone's results. Ill try it against some more Defensive wheels later. But Bahamoote Dark Knight is a boss, just sayin'.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

@BeyBouncer You wanna not be a complete douche about it? Do you honestly believe the effect of W145 is really a thing? I mean seriously, how much upward/downward force do you think a piece of plastic is going to make? I've tried it and it works great so ...

I don't know why you're insulting me, did I say something rude ? No. The point is that in beyblade, small details count. You should get a look to this thread before treating me of douche.

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You were a little rude, but so was Tri. And Meteo and Flash are two different things, therefore could result in different results.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

Nice results, Echizen; although, Phoenic is generally supposed to be testing on a right-spin setup, so I'm not sure how valuable the DK results are.

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

screw capricorne 90 mf
against a random defense combo

Hell Aries bd145 bs

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Hell Aries bd145 bs any beyblade

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Hell Aries bd145 bs against any beyblade

screw capricorne 90 mf
against a random defense combo

Hell Aries bd145 bs

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Hell Aries bd145 bs any beyblade

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Hell Aries bd145 bs against any beyblade

Guys, this is not a testing request topic. This thread is for discussing what Beyblade combinations should be added or removed from the top-tier list of the Limited format. None of the two Beyblades you two mentioned would qualify, and Hell is even banned in that format. You should really read around before posting.

I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%

What does everyone else think?

EDIT: Oh yeah I almost forgot. In that post I linked is a link to Honey's thread about Limited Defense. Do you all think Bakushin should be removed, given how poorly it did in comparison to the other top-tier Defense Wheels?

I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%

What does everyone else think?

EDIT: Oh yeah I almost forgot. In that post I linked is a link to Honey's thread about Limited Defense. Do you all think Bakushin should be removed, given how poorly it did in comparison to the other top-tier Defense Wheels?

Neat find, I'll definitely try to do some comparison tests myself. So far, for that setup, it seems like Zirago>Gryph/Wyvang, just by a bit.

I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

I did some testing on the idea of using Wyvang in a Dark Knight LTAC from this post almost two months ago that didn't seem to get a response, and I think it could be considered as a replacement for Zirago or Gryph.

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Zirago: 13 wins (12 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 7 wins (3 KO, 4 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 65%

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Bull GB145RSF
Wyvang: 12 wins (11 KO, 1 OS)
Bull: 8 wins (2 KO, 6 OS)
2 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 60%

What does everyone else think?

Out of curiosity, did Wyvang seem to have any recoil issues. That was the case when I tested it a little while ago. But yeah, pretty decent results. Here are the ones I did back in January.

MSF-H Ronin Wyvang 100RF versus Earth Cancer B:D
Bottoms in their Prime. Earth Cancer Launched First all Matches.
Ronin Wyvang: 15/20 (ALL KO) 75% Win Rate
Earth Cancer: 5/20 (4 OS, 1 KO) 25% Win Rate

MSF-H Ronin Wyvang 100RF versus Libra 90RSF
Bottoms in their Prime. Libra Launched First all Matches.
Ronin Wyvang: 11/20 (ALL KO) 55% Win Rate
Libra: 9/20 (3 OS, 6 KOs) 45% Win Rate

It had some serious recoil issues against LTDC. Had of that not been the case, the results would have been much better, seeing as six of Libra's wins were by KO caused by Wyvang's recoil.

I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.

Ditto. While like I said in the comparison testing thread, it's still passable as an LTDC, it, however, doesn't have the upper hand over Libra or Earth, only an alternative in my opinion. Let me also mention that TheBlackDragon even mentioned that LTACs aren't Bakushin LTDCs strong point, whereas LTDCs shouldn't have an issue doing well against them -- against all areas of attack.

So I'm also somewhere in between.

Out of curiosity, did Wyvang seem to have any recoil issues. That was the case when I tested it a little while ago. But yeah, pretty decent results. Here are the ones I did back in January.

...

It had some serious recoil issues against LTDC. Had of that not been the case, the results would have been much better, seeing as six of Libra's wins were by KO caused by Wyvang's recoil.

It definitely had more recoil than Zirago, but it also hit considerably harder (It's Wyvang, what do you expect). In fact, both of the ties with Wyvang were double KOs while the ties with Zirago were double OS. The case might be that Zirago is better for late-game destabilization if you don't get the early KO while Wyvang is more for immediate Attack power. I'll test against LTDC today.

I have mixed feelings with Bakushin. I've used it before and it's done alright, maybe not something that's superb, though. It may depend on the user, but I'm mixed/indifferent either way.

Ditto. While like I said in the comparison testing thread, it's still passable as an LTDC, it, however, doesn't have the upper hand over Libra or Earth, only an alternative in my opinion. Let me also mention that TheBlackDragon even mentioned that LTACs aren't Bakushin LTDCs strong point, whereas LTDCs shouldn't have an issue doing well against them -- against all areas of attack.

So I'm also somewhere in between.

I personally think it has the upper hand over Earth in an LTDC due to its shape (Libra not so much since Libra is significantly heavier), but I use Bakushin LTDC a lot and I have noticed it is particularly weak to LTAC (specifically Dark Knight). Against CH120 and higher it's really tough to move even using Omega. While MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF is hands down my favorite Limited combo and I like the way it plays, I thought its removal was worth bringing up.

Definitely looking forward to the LTDC tests. Should be interesting.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Definitely looking forward to the LTDC tests. Should be interesting.

Alright here they are.

Zirago (Click to View)

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Libra 90RSF
Zirago: 12 wins (5 KO, 7 OS)
Libra: 8 wins (5 KO, 3 OS)
7 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 60%

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Zirago: 10 wins (5 KO, 5 OS)
Leone: 10 wins (3 KO, 7 OS)
6 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 50%

MSF-H Dark Knight Zirago (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RSF
Zirago: 9 wins (5 KO, 4 OS)
Cancer: 11 wins (2 KO, 9 OS)
3 ties redone
Zirago win rate: 45%

Wyvang (Click to View)

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Libra 90RSF
Wyvang: 7 wins (all KO)
Libra: 13 wins (5 KO, 8 OS)
3 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 35%

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Wyvang: 8 wins (all KO)
Leone: 12 wins (7 KO, 5 OS)
3 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 40%

MSF-H Dark Knight Wyvang (Crystal Up) 85RF vs. MF-H Earth Cancer 90RSF
Wyvang: 10 wins (9 KO, 1 OS)
Cancer: 10 wins (4 KO, 6 OS)
5 ties redone
Wyvang win rate: 50%

So:

1. Libra < Zirago
   
2. Bakushin = Zirago / Earth = Wyvang
   
3. Earth > Zirago
   
4. Bakushin > Wyvang
   
5. Libra > Wyvang
   

I'm thoroughly confused right now. All of these tests are legitimate I promise, but the numbers aren't really making sense in my head. Maybe I'm just tired.

EDIT: And I'm still waiting for TheBlackDragon to appear, explain why I'm wrong, and invalidate my tests in a few short paragraphs.

Interesting results; I've experienced Dark Knight Zirago being able to get some OS against defense.

Overall, we clearly see that while Wyvang seems to get a lot of KOs, we also see that Zirago is capable of the alternative, again, OS. I'm not too sure what to say about one being better than another, though. In my opinion, seeing as all of the results are rather close, it probably could have went the other way around.

Thanks for the tests Wombat.

Yeah, they seem to be relatively close results. Whether it's OS or KO, it's getting the job done, either way.

Really interesting results- good job, Wombat.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Just a random thought: are MTDCs and HTDCs really fit for the tier-list?

I feel as they're KO'ed a lot more frequently than LTDCs - which are arguably, in my opinion, the safest option when it comes to Limited Format defense. The really on right-spin wheel that is successful against it is Omega, though on the other hand, there's left-spin, which can be capable of easier KO's, if not, destabilization. There was also two clips for the Grand Battle Tournament 2 BeyChannel video where LMAO's Libra GB145RSF combo lost against Geetster99's
L-Drago LTAC and an Omega one Fang Wolf was using.

And in Toronto, I should mention that when it comes to defense Kei (and I for the most part) go for an LTDC - again, arguably the safest option for defense. Being the worrisome person I am, in tournaments, I'd rather not risk any chances of being KO'ed.

Just my perspective, though.

Just a random thought: are MTDCs and LTDCs really fit for the tier-list?

I feel as they're KO'ed a lot more frequently than LTDCs

Was this a typo? Did you mean HTDCs?

I kind of agree for MTDC, but LTDC and HTDC are still solid choices. With no BD145 or an other large disks in Limited, a lot of stuff is going to be pretty short. I feel like that works more against LTDCs because they will be making a lot more metal-on-metal contact, as opposed to say 230RB where you just hit the Spin Track. I can't really make a good point but it seems like it's better to go with one of the extremes rather than try to stay in the middle.

So, now with RS unbanned, I still believe HTDC or in this case 230RS combo isn't so great. Like 230RSF and RB, it can still very well handle Pegasis, Wyvang and other types of right-spin attack that were initially proposed for the tier-list. Omega CH120 and Dark Knight Girago LTAC (Other Dark Knight LTAC will still also work; Girago was the option though because of it being able to make late-game KOs.) aren't it's strong side.

Here's a couple of tests I did a couple of weeks back:

MF-H Libra 230RS versus MSF-H Dark Knight Girago (Crystal Mode Up) CH120RF
Bottoms slightly worn down. Libra launched first all matches.
Libra: 2/20 (2 OS, 0 KO)
Girago: 18/20 (0 OS, 18 KO)
Libra win rate: 10%

Dark Knight got very easy KO's. Unlike the benchmark below, it wasn't able to OS because of it being able to topple, which was how it had won its matches while RF would just fall down. There still was contact, though, but it didn't really matter since it came down to LAD.

Benchmark:

MF-H Libra 90RS versus MSF-H Dark Knight Girago (Crystal Mode Up) CH120RF
Bottoms slightly worn down. Libra launched first all matches.
Libra: 10/20 (10 OS, 0 KO)
Girago: 10/20 (8 OS, 2 KO)
Libra win rate: 50%

Libra's win rate increased by almost 50%. As odd as it, however, it was only 40% because of Dark Knight being able to OS (as I saw Dark Knight was able to do from previous tests). On Libra 90RS's part, it was kind of sad how it was able to do so. At the same time, Girago did only manage to get 2 KO's. The results between the two heights were vice-versa in terms of OS and KO, but in defense's case, it's obviously better to be taking hits well.

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Also, let's talk RSF and RB attack. Put aside RSF attack on Wyvang customization, they're not on the tier-list, but it was definitely mentioned a little while ago here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RB-and-R...Attack-LTD.

Personally, others may not agree with me, but I'm not the biggest fan nor do I think they should be up there. There were multiple times I've witnessed Wyvang RSF combo not be able to KO a non-defensive combo. Despite more controllability than RF and R2F, they generally are less aggressive making it harder to KO things like F230CF/GCF which may be harder to catch up to. We can see that in this video with Wyvang RSF and Gravity F230GCF.

What do you guys think about them, though?

I want to test Libra 230RS some more, I believe more tests will reflect how well it did at AN.

I'll get some more tests up tomorrow.

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I'm actually very surprised that Zirago managed to KO 230 more than 90, seeing as it would only be making plastic-on-metal contact (and therefore dealing less damage) against 230 while having more or less direct metal-on-metal contact with 90. The increase in OSs against 90 makes sense though. Can you do benchmarks with Lightning CH120RF or Omega 100RF? I understand if you don't want to wear down your RS though.

Also, before someone calls me out on this and says testing scenarios are different than tournament scenarios, aren't they supposed to simulate them as much as possible? After all, you test a combo to get an idea of how well it would perform in a tournament. And be real with me, how often do you use CH120 over a short Track like 90 or 85 on DK Zirago in a tournament?

As for RSF/RB based Attack, from what I've seen it doesn't perform very well. Unless you count that weird "Active Defense" (as people are calling it now) combo I've beaten it every time I've faced it. Lightning D125RB went 0-3 against a joke combo at AN because it lacked the power to land any KOs. With a more worn RB it was more aggressive and had more grip, but it still lost to my Omega and Pyrus10000's Dark Knight in the finals.

Unless you count that weird "Active Defense" (as people are calling it now)...

I believe that was one user who may have had his plastics and MFB terminology mixed up (unfortunately, multiple other users followed suit). "Active Defense" is both misrepresentative and incorrect. The correct definition for a combination like Wyvang RSF would be "Attack/Defense Hybrid." It's addressed in this Beywiki article.

Sorry, just my OCD kicking in. XD

Anywho, I agree completely with Wombat; what real reason is there to use Dark Knight on CH120? It's an LTAC Wheel. DK CH120 isn't even competitive, technically (not that it's an ineffective custom, per say, but it's not really aligned with DK's conventional application).

I'm actually very surprised that Zirago managed to KO 230 more than 90, seeing as it would only be making plastic-on-metal contact (and therefore dealing less damage) against 230 while having more or less direct metal-on-metal contact with 90.

That's because pretty much all the Smash Attack Dark Knight Attack customs have comes from the actual Dark Knight Crystal Wheel. The slope and the orb on the one side of DK provide some pretty ridiculous firepower. That said, if a Dark Knight Attack customs isn't making plastic-to-metal contact, it's probably in trouble (the biggest reason it's only used on LTAC, and the biggest reason Dark Knight Girago CH120RF had so much trouble taking down Libra 90RS in the above testing).

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|Click here for the next tournament in North Carolina! |

Also, let's talk RSF and RB attack. Put aside RSF attack on Wyvang customization, they're not on the tier-list, but it was definitely mentioned a little while ago here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-RB-and-R...Attack-LTD.

Personally, others may not agree with me, but I'm not the biggest fan nor do I think they should be up there. There were multiple times I've witnessed Wyvang RSF combo not be able to KO a non-defensive combo. Despite more controllability than RF and R2F, they generally are less aggressive making it harder to KO things like F230CF/GCF which may be harder to catch up to. We can see that in this video with Wyvang RSF and Gravity F230GCF.

What do you guys think about them, though?

That wasn't a good example to use if you're arguing against the strength of RSF/RB Attack: I won that battle 3-2 after going down 0-2 (which the video shows). And my RSF wasn't aggressive enough as it could have been in the first couple battles–probably because of my launch power–so I made an adjustment and came out victorious in the end.

As you know, Omega RB combos were very popular and successful at the Toronto tournament today. I beat L Drago Guardian F230CF with it. RB/RSF Attack is so deadly because it is basically a safer and more controllable version of RF ... It might lose against something like Libra 90RS or a faster Attack type using RF (but even in this case the win is not guaranteed for the Attack type especially with Omega RB), but otherwise, it has the ability to win against practically anything, much like "regular" RF Attack does, except without nearly as much risk. It's a huge problem in my opinion, and why I am leaning towards trying out a ban on RSF/RB. With RS back, we have a Bottom that can be used solely for Defense and realistically nothing else, so I see little reason to keep RSF/RB since they so often are being used as a way to build easy-to-use Attack types.

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