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MF(-H) Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF

Jan. 11, 2014  6:19 PM
 
I'd still be surprised if it were related to the AA# but those are definitely very interesting results. Thanks very much. Out of curiosity, how did Scythe get those outspins btw?
Jan. 11, 2014  6:32 PM
 
Sometimes Scythe would just thrash Earth around the stadium. Scythe in the end (due to the damage of Scythe's attack) could OS Earth in the end. Strange, I did get one-three OS's without doing a huge amount of damage at one point.
Jan. 11, 2014  6:51 PM
 
(Jan. 11, 2014  6:19 PM)th!nk Wrote: I'd still be surprised if it were related to the AA# but those are definitely very interesting results.

Why? That's the mold number, LOL! XD

From these, it would seem that the AA3 (the one I have) does the worst, which would definitely explain my results. However, it should be investigated more, since you're the only person who's tried it. I wish I had more than one, but I don't. Tongue_out
Jan. 11, 2014  7:22 PM
 
They've never been related to any molding differences in the past - different molds with the same number, same molds with different numbers etc etc. Though in this case now I think about it, because it might be an accidental mold difference I guess that does make sense, especially as you have AA3 and I have AA2.

Wonder if others could post their numbers and experiences, in case it is related?
Jan. 12, 2014  12:25 PM
 
After noticing this. I found I have AA2 and AA3. So... um... I decided to test these out, and was getting similar results to "l". Well... I hope it helped.

Following the way he's layed it out:

"AA2" TESTING:

MF-H Scythe Cancer CH120RF vs Earth Aquario 85WD
Scythe: 17/20 (12 KO'S, 5 OS'S)
Earth: 3/20 (0 KO'S, 3 OS'S)
Scythe win %: 85%

"AA3" TESTING:

MF-H Scythe Cancer CH120RF vs Earth Aquario 85WD
Scythe: 6/20 (6 KO'S, 0 OS'S)
Earth: 14/20 (14 OS'S, 0 KO'S)
Scythe win %: 30%

EDIT: Oops... silly typo!

EDIT: Whilst we can see that one particular mold seems to dominate the limited combos, the other two molds do not do particularly well. I for one find this to be surprising, but draw the conclusion that Scythe should not be banned. If it does however reach that point, I suggest only the particular mold is banned.
Jan. 12, 2014  12:29 PM
 
Thanks Trickst3r. This also helps me back up my results. But the "AA2" testing. Scythe as 11 OS'S, 5 KO'S. Yet you say it got 17/20, haha. Very close indeed. In fact: Your "AA2" got better results then mine. Testing from other members would be great.
Jan. 12, 2014  6:11 PM
 
Well things are stacking up for AA2 being a mad beast then. That's weird.

By the way, I spoke to Ingulit and his is AA4. Yep, another one. Tongue_out He also mentioned that having tried this he was getting some KO's against low track opponents he wasn't with his past scythe combos, albeit it was far from a blowout.

As for banning a particular mold, ehhhh, it's kinda a pain in the behind to keep track of throughout a tournament. I'd rather emergency ban scythe for the time being so we can have a discussion on whether that would be okay in a more reasoned and less pressured manner.

BTW, if anyone with an AA2 Scythe or a scythe that gets good results in this combo is attending a tourney soon, could ya let me know as various discussions are going on and my opinion is gonna be pretty heavily dependent on that.
Jan. 14, 2014  6:09 AM
 
Just a note on the Pegasis II thing. Tri has very helpfully informed me that Hasbro's version, like TT's, has the hole on the underside of one wing (which results in slightly poorer balance than the SK version) as pictured on my Takara Tomy one here. So yeah SK's might pull very slightly better results or whatever, IDK, difference only really shows up if you do solo spins with phantom and the TT one is still pretty good (from my spins) anyway. Will get around to doing solo spins with it at some point now I have a good launcher and so on.
Mar. 31, 2014  2:43 AM
 
Because I only have one RF, I conducted tests in the following order to account for the wear that would occur throughout the course of the CH120RF tests:

AA1 first set 15 Rounds
AA2 second 15 Rounds
AA3 third 15 Rounds
AA3 fourth 15 Rounds
AA2 fifth 15 Rounds
AA1 sixth 15 Rounds

Be forewarned, I'm pretty pitiful with Attackers... XD

Conditions (Click to View)


MF-H Scythe (AA1) Pegasis II CH120RF vs. Earth Aquario 85WD
Detail Results (Click to View)
SP: 5 (1 OS, 4 KO)
EA: 25 (25 OS, 0 KO)
Scythe Win %: 16.7%


MF-H Scythe (AA2) Pegasis II CH120RF vs. Earth Aquario 85WD
Detail Results (Click to View)
SP: 8 (1 OS, 7 KO)
EA: 22 (11 OS, 1 KO)
Scythe Win %: 26.7%


MF-H Scythe (AA3) Pegasis II CH120RF vs. Earth Aquario 85WD
Detail Results (Click to View)
SP: 10 (0 OS, 10 KO)
EA: 20 (20 OS, 0 KO)
Scythe Win %: 33.3%


These are the weights of the Scythes I used in these tests:
AA1 Scythe: 33.9 g
AA2 Scythe: 33.8 g
AA3 Scythe: 34.5 g

And these are the weights of my other two Scythes:
AA1 Scythe (w/4D Scythe stickers): 33.8 g
AA2 Scythe: 33.9 g
Apr. 22, 2014  7:23 PM
 
I get an AA1 but i don't have the bb-10 so anybode else have one and can do more testing please.
Apr. 23, 2014  1:58 AM
 
How can I tell what mold my scythe is
Apr. 23, 2014  3:46 AM
 
The number you're looking for should be on the underside of the Metal Wheel.

(Jan. 15, 2014  2:40 AM)ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Wrote:

However, the code is not a definite indicator of how well your Scythe will perform.
Apr. 23, 2014  3:54 AM
 
Yeah i also have an AA4 and for me its been serving good stamina.
Apr. 23, 2014  11:15 PM
 
Hrm. If there's a mold discrepancy, I am not sure if I would want to ban that part. Mostly because of the fact that you in essence have to be VERY specific with your parts to truly get to that broken status. (I knew about the mold differences before, but I wasn't sure what to make of it, then.) As far as Scythe goes, I may give this a whirl once I get another BB-10, given how trashed my old one was. (My family's dog pretty much ate it.)

Anyway, to extend on that point from before. If one has to keep track of both parts and molds of parts to have a broken combo, and it's not getting 100% on EVERYTHING, then I don't smell a ban. However, I do think that it would be great for the Limited meta to have more counters than just using the same wheel. That would diversify the meta, which was kind of the point of LTD, if I'm not mistaken. I'll wait for more info to weigh in again, unless I see something very interesting.

(And this type of thing is why I came back in the first place. And Limited is REALLY cool.)
Apr. 23, 2014  11:35 PM
 
Which molds are better the the others
Apr. 23, 2014  11:42 PM
 
(Apr. 23, 2014  11:35 PM)Grim Ripper Wrote: Which molds are better the the others

AA2 and AA4 in most cases.
Apr. 24, 2014  8:36 AM
 
(Apr. 23, 2014  11:15 PM)Temporal Wrote: Hrm. If there's a mold discrepancy, I am not sure if I would want to ban that part. Mostly because of the fact that you in essence have to be VERY specific with your parts to truly get to that broken status. (I knew about the mold differences before, but I wasn't sure what to make of it, then.) As far as Scythe goes, I may give this a whirl once I get another BB-10, given how trashed my old one was. (My family's dog pretty much ate it.)

Anyway, to extend on that point from before. If one has to keep track of both parts and molds of parts to have a broken combo, and it's not getting 100% on EVERYTHING, then I don't smell a ban. However, I do think that it would be great for the Limited meta to have more counters than just using the same wheel. That would diversify the meta, which was kind of the point of LTD, if I'm not mistaken. I'll wait for more info to weigh in again, unless I see something very interesting.

(And this type of thing is why I came back in the first place. And Limited is REALLY cool.)


yeah let's leave gamebreaking stuff in the meta because a few aren't broken that's not objectively the wrong way to approach managing a format

(I already replied to this and sorry if this sounds too grouchy that's part of why I'm avoiding the site atm).
Apr. 24, 2014  10:43 PM
 
Your combo is pretty competitive, Maybe I should try using metal fury parts now! :3
Apr. 25, 2014  4:37 PM
 
(Apr. 24, 2014  8:36 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Apr. 23, 2014  11:15 PM)Temporal Wrote: Hrm. If there's a mold discrepancy, I am not sure if I would want to ban that part. Mostly because of the fact that you in essence have to be VERY specific with your parts to truly get to that broken status. (I knew about the mold differences before, but I wasn't sure what to make of it, then.) As far as Scythe goes, I may give this a whirl once I get another BB-10, given how trashed my old one was. (My family's dog pretty much ate it.)

Anyway, to extend on that point from before. If one has to keep track of both parts and molds of parts to have a broken combo, and it's not getting 100% on EVERYTHING, then I don't smell a ban. However, I do think that it would be great for the Limited meta to have more counters than just using the same wheel. That would diversify the meta, which was kind of the point of LTD, if I'm not mistaken. I'll wait for more info to weigh in again, unless I see something very interesting.

(And this type of thing is why I came back in the first place. And Limited is REALLY cool.)


yeah let's leave gamebreaking stuff in the meta because a few aren't broken that's not objectively the wrong way to approach managing a format

(I already replied to this and sorry if this sounds too grouchy that's part of why I'm avoiding the site atm).

Well, I think that some time should be given to see if some counters actually show up. If none over do, then I'm not concerned with banning it, and I think it'd be a good idea. (On the other hand, I also hope that said counters aren't just more Scythe, and turn out to be useful in other situations, as well.) However, I have not tested Scythe myself, so it would be pretty ignorant of me to claim I know exactly what's going on. All I know comes from videos and tests posted here and on other threads.
Apr. 26, 2014  6:31 AM
 
We already given Scythe time, and until today from the 1st day of LTD nothing counters it. With AN coming we can't allocate more time. If Scythe isn't rid by the time AN starts, even though I won't go to AN it won't be LTD anymore, it's just a three-way battle between Scythe, Omega and everything else.
Apr. 26, 2014  6:58 AM
 
(Apr. 25, 2014  4:37 PM)Temporal Wrote:
(Apr. 24, 2014  8:36 AM)th!nk Wrote:
(Apr. 23, 2014  11:15 PM)Temporal Wrote: Hrm. If there's a mold discrepancy, I am not sure if I would want to ban that part. Mostly because of the fact that you in essence have to be VERY specific with your parts to truly get to that broken status. (I knew about the mold differences before, but I wasn't sure what to make of it, then.) As far as Scythe goes, I may give this a whirl once I get another BB-10, given how trashed my old one was. (My family's dog pretty much ate it.)

Anyway, to extend on that point from before. If one has to keep track of both parts and molds of parts to have a broken combo, and it's not getting 100% on EVERYTHING, then I don't smell a ban. However, I do think that it would be great for the Limited meta to have more counters than just using the same wheel. That would diversify the meta, which was kind of the point of LTD, if I'm not mistaken. I'll wait for more info to weigh in again, unless I see something very interesting.

(And this type of thing is why I came back in the first place. And Limited is REALLY cool.)


yeah let's leave gamebreaking stuff in the meta because a few aren't broken that's not objectively the wrong way to approach managing a format

(I already replied to this and sorry if this sounds too grouchy that's part of why I'm avoiding the site atm).

Well, I think that some time should be given to see if some counters actually show up. If none over do, then I'm not concerned with banning it, and I think it'd be a good idea. (On the other hand, I also hope that said counters aren't just more Scythe, and turn out to be useful in other situations, as well.) However, I have not tested Scythe myself, so it would be pretty ignorant of me to claim I know exactly what's going on. All I know comes from videos and tests posted here and on other threads.

It's been a few months and this is far from the only problematic customization. Just how long do you want to let the format sit in a really messed up state when it's blatantly obvious something should be done before you'd say "yeah okay that's good".

A good Scythe is THE BEST stamina wheel, THE BEST defense wheel (rendering a massive number of older, aggressive wheels obsolete), equal THE BEST anti-attack wheel, and also competitive for attack (in those anti-attack setups) and also great/THE BEST in numerous stamina/defense balance customs. It doesn't need to use a difficult tip to do most of these things and when it does, it's able to handle a huge number of things. If you don't think that is problematic then what exactly would you consider problematic?
That's why I was against even waiting for tournament results - when something is capable of that in testing and the tests have been verified, when a good one hits the tournament scene what exactly is it going to do? If something is THE BEST at defense AND stamina AND many defense/stamina balance customs there's really no obstacle aside from rarity to its use and rarity only goes so far once people start hunting for them for the competitive advantage (making it even more "unfair"). Metal Wheels don't get performance anxiety, and you can't counter the basic facts of a part making it the best part for almost everything - and sure, in a format like plastics where you have wide defense this isn't an issue, but Limited is focussed on making things viable and Scythe is good enough that it is very capable of significantly hurting that. You can counter a combo. You pretty much can't counter a wheel unless it only has one use - and when a wheel has basically ALL of the uses, well, "counter" isn't really a thing that applies.

Temporal, this is presumably just a matter of you thinking the only issue with Scythe is this combo, and you wouldn't be alone in that, so the above is generally not aimed at you (it's something I needed to get off my chest) but it might help you understand why waiting is unnecessary and also a bad idea.
Apr. 27, 2014  5:56 AM
 
Again, I have very little knowledge of the situation, having just started studying the Limited meta. (Quite frankly, I did not know that Scythe was that versatile.) I'll take your word for it, mostly because I trust you know what you're saying. I can't personally endorse its banning, since I have literally never seen Scythe live, but if this is the case, then Scythe is problematic, to say the least.

I probably should have studied the limited meta more before commenting, seeing as I came in with some abnormally bad assumptions. (This is highly uncharacteristic of me. Normally, I study for ages before posting. I know I did a couple of years ago when I was really involved in the meta. Sorry 'bout that.)
Apr. 27, 2014  11:59 AM
 
(Apr. 27, 2014  5:56 AM)Temporal Wrote: Again, I have very little knowledge of the situation, having just started studying the Limited meta. (Quite frankly, I did not know that Scythe was that versatile.) I'll take your word for it, mostly because I trust you know what you're saying. I can't personally endorse its banning, since I have literally never seen Scythe live, but if this is the case, then Scythe is problematic, to say the least.

I probably should have studied the limited meta more before commenting, seeing as I came in with some abnormally bad assumptions. (This is highly uncharacteristic of me. Normally, I study for ages before posting. I know I did a couple of years ago when I was really involved in the meta. Sorry 'bout that.)

Haha, it's cool, as I said I knew that would be the case so I was really just using you as a scapegoat to explain why I am so incredulous that the call for banning isn't unanimous because one influential member also expressed a belief that this was the most problematic combo - Anti Attack is the most versatile use for the wheel, the closest to breaking the game in a single combination, and thus why I emphasised it - but Scythe is not a one trick pony - Scythe knows all the tricks and it is just dying to show you them.
Apologies on my behalf for being so opportunistic, but I really wanted to make a big statement on the topic and you gave me a fantastic opportunity to do so! Grin
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