Jan. 06, 2014 3:49 PM
::MF(-H) Scythe Pegasis II CH120RF::
Note: This thread refers to Hasbro's Metal Fury Scythe, as opposed to the 4D one which is banned in Limited Format, which this thread is for. I figure this is common sense but some people apparently haven't quite caught on yet so I'll just put this here for them.
So I got my Metal Fury Scythe today and this was one of the first things I tried, I had reasonably high expectations for it, but figured Libra would probably edge it out overall as I hadn't heard much about Scythe having any serious Attack ability. My initial trials more than exceeded my expectations, throwing defense around and then outspinning what is arguably the format's top Defense combo, MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF (also making it scrape itself out once).
Played around some more, played with part variations and got to testing. Have you guys ever tested something you thought was broken only to watch on in horror as it tore through things you actually thought would still beat it? Well after this, I sure do.
What I'm saying is this thing is ridiculously broken. It's not *quite* at Basalt's level but it's definitely stronger than anything I've tried with Hell IMO (if only because scythe's attack and defense are more balanced vs Hell which isn't quite so good defensively). Scythe isn't as heavy as either of them however at 33.7g, it's still one of the Heaviest wheels in Limited, and unlike Libra it has the distribution to use it to ridiculous effect.
As for what to classify it as, personally I'd just say "ridiculously broken", while its setup resembles Anti-Attack (and indeed this is probably the closest classification) it trades off some of the performance against attack for a significant amount of stamina. Could put it under balance, I guess, but yeah.
At least, that's what my tests show. I'd really appreciate everyone who can do so testing this, as I'd like to find out if I'm just getting particularly lucky or whatever, seeing as Ingulit seemed highly skeptical when I was raving at him about it.
Part Choice: (Click to View)
Metal Face: I'm using MF rather than MF-H as a lot of Scythe's power comes from its flywheel effect, but it needs an MF or MF-H to stand up to gravity and presumably other heavy/powerful attackers. If your area doesn't use attack though, you could get away with a regular face (though MF-H Libra CH120RF might become a problem, not sure). MF-H trades off a little attack to do a little better against attack, if you're in an attack-heavy area this may be a good idea.
Pegasis II: The Pegasis II I'm using is SonoKong, which is more balanced than the Takara version as it lacks the hole on the underside on one side. It has a very edge-focussed distribution and lines up nicely with Scythe, and when I did a few solo spins on 4D Phantom, it outdid Cancer, Aquario and Bull by a large margin. It generally has recoil issues against taller opponents when used for stamina, limiting it to tall tracks, but on RF, this recoil turns into attack, very useful considering Scythe has to rely on its Clear Wheel to hit 230RSF. Pegasis II pulls this off nicely while also having very good stamina.
Takara's Pegasis II and Cancer/Gasher are the other options but for the latter expect a significant drop in performance against tall track opponents, for the former you may miss out on crucial outspins but I haven't really tried it.
Scythe: The strongest wheel in Limited, by a big margin, its combination of ridiculous stamina, powerful flywheel effect, excellent defense, decent weight and strong attack against opponents that it can hit with its scythes are what make this combo (and break the format).
CH120: CH120 is a great track, it works against basically every height in the format and contributes greatly to this combinations spammability. Especially good for hitting common 145-heights with Scythe's contact points.
Rubber Flat: RF is used for maximum recoil control for dealing with Attack and its slightly better stamina vs the directional rubber flats. Mine is a little past prime, you'll want it moving as fast as possible without being too prone to skipping the ridge for best performance.
Pegasis II: The Pegasis II I'm using is SonoKong, which is more balanced than the Takara version as it lacks the hole on the underside on one side. It has a very edge-focussed distribution and lines up nicely with Scythe, and when I did a few solo spins on 4D Phantom, it outdid Cancer, Aquario and Bull by a large margin. It generally has recoil issues against taller opponents when used for stamina, limiting it to tall tracks, but on RF, this recoil turns into attack, very useful considering Scythe has to rely on its Clear Wheel to hit 230RSF. Pegasis II pulls this off nicely while also having very good stamina.
Takara's Pegasis II and Cancer/Gasher are the other options but for the latter expect a significant drop in performance against tall track opponents, for the former you may miss out on crucial outspins but I haven't really tried it.
Scythe: The strongest wheel in Limited, by a big margin, its combination of ridiculous stamina, powerful flywheel effect, excellent defense, decent weight and strong attack against opponents that it can hit with its scythes are what make this combo (and break the format).
CH120: CH120 is a great track, it works against basically every height in the format and contributes greatly to this combinations spammability. Especially good for hitting common 145-heights with Scythe's contact points.
Rubber Flat: RF is used for maximum recoil control for dealing with Attack and its slightly better stamina vs the directional rubber flats. Mine is a little past prime, you'll want it moving as fast as possible without being too prone to skipping the ridge for best performance.
Launch/CH120 Height Guide: (Click to View)
Vs Attack/Anti-Attack: use 120, Launch hard, generally straight shoot so they don't catch you from behind, as you should move faster than them and will basically always outspin them.
Vs Defense:
Vs 145 use 120 and bank harder than normal for your sliding shot, aim to KO, you want a real good flower pattern here.
Vs Bakushin LTDC: Use 120, You'll outspin them even if they choose CS as long as you hit them enough. RSF is no contest enjoy the free wins.
Vs Earth LTDC: (STILL WORKING ON THIS)
Vs Tall Tracks use 145 and aim to KO with a sliding shot.
Vs Stamina/Spin Stealers
Vs Mid Height use 120, KO
Vs Tall Tracks use 145, KO
Vs LTSC: Use 145, bank a bit, want to get that bevelled lower edge to smack them around.
Vs Balance
Vs MF-H Libra 230CS – Use 145, aim to KOs
Vs Defense:
Vs 145 use 120 and bank harder than normal for your sliding shot, aim to KO, you want a real good flower pattern here.
Vs Bakushin LTDC: Use 120, You'll outspin them even if they choose CS as long as you hit them enough. RSF is no contest enjoy the free wins.
Vs Earth LTDC: (STILL WORKING ON THIS)
Vs Tall Tracks use 145 and aim to KO with a sliding shot.
Vs Stamina/Spin Stealers
Vs Mid Height use 120, KO
Vs Tall Tracks use 145, KO
Vs LTSC: Use 145, bank a bit, want to get that bevelled lower edge to smack them around.
Vs Balance
Vs MF-H Libra 230CS – Use 145, aim to KOs
Likely/Possible Counters: (Click to View)
From my experimentation, I have found a few things that would counter this, however none of them are that useful in the broader metagame. I had a few things I thought worked against it but then in testing they didn't actually work out, so I'll try to find more once my launcher is fixed.
Some LTAC would probably do okay against this, Beat failed because 145 is kinda out of its ideal range on 90, perhaps 105 would work but ehhhh. Lightning might work. Will look into this tomorrow.
MF-H Earth 85/90CS/RSF: Not sure on this one as you might be able to KO CS and Earth needs a CW with really good stamina to outspin you on RSF, but this seems the most promising.
MF-H Libra 85RF is one of the more useable counters to this, seeing as it is able to outspin Scythe and is more likely to KO Scythe than vice versa. That said, if the Scythe user has a stronger launch or their RF has better stamina Libra could run into trouble judging from how close it is, IMO.
Scythe Defense: This works well judging from a) informed guesswork and b) L's tests, and seems to be the most viable counter so far. One wheel to rule them all anyone?
Gravity Perseus D125GCF will probably still manage to KO this (it did when I tried it anyway) but it seems to struggle more with RF at tournaments, so unless someone wants to do two person testing it's hard to know for sure).
Maybe low track spin stealers if weak launched might work but IDK, kinda think they'll probably just get KO'd anyway.
Some LTAC would probably do okay against this, Beat failed because 145 is kinda out of its ideal range on 90, perhaps 105 would work but ehhhh. Lightning might work. Will look into this tomorrow.
MF-H Earth 85/90CS/RSF: Not sure on this one as you might be able to KO CS and Earth needs a CW with really good stamina to outspin you on RSF, but this seems the most promising.
MF-H Libra 85RF is one of the more useable counters to this, seeing as it is able to outspin Scythe and is more likely to KO Scythe than vice versa. That said, if the Scythe user has a stronger launch or their RF has better stamina Libra could run into trouble judging from how close it is, IMO.
Scythe Defense: This works well judging from a) informed guesswork and b) L's tests, and seems to be the most viable counter so far. One wheel to rule them all anyone?
Gravity Perseus D125GCF will probably still manage to KO this (it did when I tried it anyway) but it seems to struggle more with RF at tournaments, so unless someone wants to do two person testing it's hard to know for sure).
Maybe low track spin stealers if weak launched might work but IDK, kinda think they'll probably just get KO'd anyway.
TESTING
Note: The L/R String Launcher I'm using for launching Scythe has lost string length due to fraying over time, and as such is only slightly more powerful than an LL2. Worth keeping that in mind as you look through these, I think.
Scythe is slightly worn, only used it today but it does wear fast though I don't see this having that big an effect on it, its main contact points are slopes and it's hard to do much to those (the side on contact points might wear a bit but they're not super important).
vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RSF
120 Height, Sliding Shot. RSF Worn, as it's capable of OSing while being harder to KO (Fresher RSF are easier to KO)
Standard Testing Conditions – Any bad launches etc redone, so if you include them it'll probs get a bit lower, but it's still hardly a challenge.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SKO Midgame
2. SKO oh man this is like shooting a fish in a barrel with a punt gunt
3. SKO
4. SKO
5. SKO BOUNCED IT OFF THE WALL
6. EKO edged scythe out
7. SKO
8. EOS
9. SKO Right across the stadium just off rotation wut
10. EOS launch must be getting sloppy
11. SKO
12. EOS
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. EOS
16. SKO
17. SKO
18. SKO
19. SKO
20. SKO
Draws: DK R7, R18
Observations:It has to get under earth to really hurt it but I mean banking and sliding shot and you're there.
2. SKO oh man this is like shooting a fish in a barrel with a punt gunt
3. SKO
4. SKO
5. SKO BOUNCED IT OFF THE WALL
6. EKO edged scythe out
7. SKO
8. EOS
9. SKO Right across the stadium just off rotation wut
10. EOS launch must be getting sloppy
11. SKO
12. EOS
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. EOS
16. SKO
17. SKO
18. SKO
19. SKO
20. SKO
Draws: DK R7, R18
Observations:It has to get under earth to really hurt it but I mean banking and sliding shot and you're there.
Scythe: 15/20 = 75% (All KO)
The RSF was a bit more aggro here than it was later and this is slightly higher than I thought Scythe would be able to get, so I might give it another shot tomorrow just to be sure, though really that's probably me being paranoid.
vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Standard Testing Conditions. RSF Near Mint/Slightly Used, 120 height, sliding shot, gonna try to KO it but as we'll see that's not actually necessary
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SOS: Scythe came real close to just KOing it but it doesn't have to.
2. SOS
3. SOS
4. SKO! Huge collision, scythe found a wall, Bakushin found my knee (ow!)
5. SOS get moar flywheel
6. SOS this is a joke
7. SOS (is what bakushin is sending out right now)
8. SKO BAM THAT FLYWHEEL POWER
9. SOS
10. SOS
Observations: No Contest
2. SOS
3. SOS
4. SKO! Huge collision, scythe found a wall, Bakushin found my knee (ow!)
5. SOS get moar flywheel
6. SOS this is a joke
7. SOS (is what bakushin is sending out right now)
8. SKO BAM THAT FLYWHEEL POWER
9. SOS
10. SOS
Observations: No Contest
Scythe: 10/10 = 100% (2KO, 8OS)
Stopped after 10 rounds because this was absolutely no contest. Bakushin's only hope is to get a chance KO and Scythe is heavier and larger, thus a little more likely to find the wall.
Either way, it was this matchup that set alarm bells off for me. Scythe has a bevelled lower edge so it can kinda force smash Bakushin to make it scrape or generally wear away at its stamina, or just straight up KO it.
vs MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) R145R2F (Left Spin)
R2F worn but moves fast in left - used because I like the direction tips in the opposite direction, find it works well. Launches alternated, Gravity launched first R1.
Both beys Straight shot, tends to be the best option in RF vs RF stuff. 120 Height.
Standard Testing Conditions, however worth noting that Gravity's launcher has a longer string and thus launches a little more powerfully. This was unavoidable.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SKO
2. GKO got scythe before scythe was at full speed
3. SKO
4. GKO
5. SOS: Scythe has better LAD, in this round they kept finding walls.
6. SKO
7. GKO
8. SKO
9. SKO – scythe got under it and destabilised then KOd on the second pass
10. SKO
11. GKO
12. SKO
13. SOS
14.SKO – DKO but scythe caught the ridge and hung on slightly longer.
15. SKO lategame!
16. GKO – kept hitting scythe near the wall before it started moving and eventually nudged it out
17. GKO gravity TS'd while scythe flowered for some reason, gravity got it near the edge and KOd
18. GKO
19. GKO
20. GKO
Draws: DK R2 R7, R15x2 R17, R19
Observations:
2. GKO got scythe before scythe was at full speed
3. SKO
4. GKO
5. SOS: Scythe has better LAD, in this round they kept finding walls.
6. SKO
7. GKO
8. SKO
9. SKO – scythe got under it and destabilised then KOd on the second pass
10. SKO
11. GKO
12. SKO
13. SOS
14.SKO – DKO but scythe caught the ridge and hung on slightly longer.
15. SKO lategame!
16. GKO – kept hitting scythe near the wall before it started moving and eventually nudged it out
17. GKO gravity TS'd while scythe flowered for some reason, gravity got it near the edge and KOd
18. GKO
19. GKO
20. GKO
Draws: DK R2 R7, R15x2 R17, R19
Observations:
Scythe: 11/20 = 55% (9KO, 2OS)
An MF-H should improve scythe's results slightly, in a tournament situation I'd generally prefer to be using Scythe, but RF vs RF is like this anyhow and 55% is a lot better than most things manage against this Gravity combo (pretty sure it's the best attack combo in limited).
vs Earth Aquario 85D
120 Height, more banking than usual, launch HARD because this isn't an easy matchup.
Standard Testing Conditions
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SKO – destabilised earth and it rolled out the stadium. D usually stops this
2. SKO – lined it up nice
3. SKO
4. EOS – scythe just didn't land a solid enough hit
5. EOS – Wall Saves
6. SKO
7. SKO
8. EOS – scraped but didn't exit
9. SKO
10. SKO
Draws:
Observations:
2. SKO – lined it up nice
3. SKO
4. EOS – scythe just didn't land a solid enough hit
5. EOS – Wall Saves
6. SKO
7. SKO
8. EOS – scraped but didn't exit
9. SKO
10. SKO
Draws:
Observations:
Scythe: 7/10 = 70% (All KO)
Stopped here after giving 145 height another shot and finding it much easier to use (much more forgiving if you don't nail the launch).
vs Earth Aquario 85D
145 Height, more banking than usual, launch HARD because this sill isn't an easy matchup despite what you might think.
Standard Testing Conditions
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SKO
2. SKO
3. EOS
4. SKO – kicked earth all over the arena until it found a pocket.
5. SKO just pushed it up the slope and out the exit like a bulldozer LOL
6. SKO BOOOOIIIIIINNNNGGGGG!
7. EOS
8. SKO get force smashed son
9. SKO
10. SKO
11. SKO Earth flew up, ran along the top of the wall, hit scythe on the way back down, all for scythe to hit it softly before it could regain stability and cause it to scrape straight out.
12. SKO
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. SKO
16. SKO
17. SKO
18. EOS Scythe couldn't land a hard enough hit
19. SKO
20. EOS: Scythe came so close to OSing earth by destabilising it, but D stopped it from scraping too much.
Draws: NONE
Observations:
2. SKO
3. EOS
4. SKO – kicked earth all over the arena until it found a pocket.
5. SKO just pushed it up the slope and out the exit like a bulldozer LOL
6. SKO BOOOOIIIIIINNNNGGGGG!
7. EOS
8. SKO get force smashed son
9. SKO
10. SKO
11. SKO Earth flew up, ran along the top of the wall, hit scythe on the way back down, all for scythe to hit it softly before it could regain stability and cause it to scrape straight out.
12. SKO
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. SKO
16. SKO
17. SKO
18. EOS Scythe couldn't land a hard enough hit
19. SKO
20. EOS: Scythe came so close to OSing earth by destabilising it, but D stopped it from scraping too much.
Draws: NONE
Observations:
Scythe: 16/20 = 80% (All KO)
Was tempted to stop the carnage after 10 rounds but Ingulit raised this as a potential counter and I initially had some trouble with it (I've had caffeine now haha).
vs MF-H Beat Lynx 90LRF
Standard Testing Conditions, 145 Height (seems to put you out of Beat's ideal range. I don't really like Beat much). Scythe is tornado stalled, aim is to get there before beat does as you move at a similar speed or slightly faster depending on the state of its tip and whether it uses RF or a faster Directional Rubber Flat, and then try to slip round from behind and KO it, or at least go fast enough avoid it doing the same to you. Both launched with generally straight shots.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SOS
2. BKO
3. SOS
4. SOS
5. SOS (wall saves)
6. SKO – pinched beat against the corner of a wall
7. SOS
8. SKO (beat recoil)
9. BKO
10. BKO (Scythe came dangerously close to hitting me in the crotch at high speed there.)
Draws: DSO R10
Observations:
2. BKO
3. SOS
4. SOS
5. SOS (wall saves)
6. SKO – pinched beat against the corner of a wall
7. SOS
8. SKO (beat recoil)
9. BKO
10. BKO (Scythe came dangerously close to hitting me in the crotch at high speed there.)
Draws: DSO R10
Observations:
Scythe: 7/10 = 70% (2KO, 5OS)
I actually expected Beat to win this as it does wreck Scythe if Scythe uses 120, but it seems to struggle to hit 145 hard (I'm not a big fan of Beat tbh, it's mostly round walls which hurts consistency).
I only realise now I didn't go back to this to do the full 20 rounds because I was worried about my RF getting too worn, so I moved onto more defensive opponents. I'll do another 10 tomorrow.
vs MF-H Earth Aquario 230RSF
Worn RSF, 145 Height.
Standard Testing Conditions
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SKO
2. SKO off a wall!
3. SKO AND OMG THAT ALMOST LOOKED LIKE ACTUAL CW UPPER ATTACK WHAT
4. EOS kinda a bad launch
5. SKO
6. SKO
7. SOS: a couple of near KO's and heavy destabilization
8. SKO
9. SKO
10. SOS destabilization again
11. SKO
12. SKO Turns out scythe's skillset also includes Juggling. Truly a wheel of many talents.
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. SKO
16. EOS
17. SKO
18. SOS
19. SKO
20. SKO and over the wall to finish it off, very classy.
Draws: R6DSO (destabilization) R7DKO, R15DSO
Observations:
2. SKO off a wall!
3. SKO AND OMG THAT ALMOST LOOKED LIKE ACTUAL CW UPPER ATTACK WHAT
4. EOS kinda a bad launch
5. SKO
6. SKO
7. SOS: a couple of near KO's and heavy destabilization
8. SKO
9. SKO
10. SOS destabilization again
11. SKO
12. SKO Turns out scythe's skillset also includes Juggling. Truly a wheel of many talents.
13. SKO
14. SKO
15. SKO
16. EOS
17. SKO
18. SOS
19. SKO
20. SKO and over the wall to finish it off, very classy.
Draws: R6DSO (destabilization) R7DKO, R15DSO
Observations:
Scythe: 19/20 = 95% (16KO, 3OS)
This was better than I expected but I didn't use Pegasis II much in pre-testing against it I guess and when I did Scythe did really well. This RSF was able to OS Scythe in pre-testing, maybe I was using Cancer instead of Aquario on Earth then, but a fresher one would likely only get you KO'd more often and it's not a huge difference anyway, not worth me re-testing any time soon.
vs MF-H Libra CH120RF
Standard Testing Conditions, Alternating launches with libra launching first R1. RF's are about the same state really.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
1. SOS
2. SOS
3. SKO oh noooo
4. SOS
5. SKO GOTTA GO FAST
6. SKO WHAT KIND OF MONSTER HAVE WE ALLOWED TO EXIST IN OUR FORMAT? LIBRA, EARTH I'M SO SORRY
7. SOS(orry, so very sorry)
8. LOS Not sure how this happened but it bought a tear to my eye seeing Libra still trying to fight against impossible odds despite the shock of discovering a wheel far more broken than it ever was.
9. SOS :C
10. SOS I can't let this continue. Throwing in the towel for Libra here.
Observations:
2. SOS
3. SKO oh noooo
4. SOS
5. SKO GOTTA GO FAST
6. SKO WHAT KIND OF MONSTER HAVE WE ALLOWED TO EXIST IN OUR FORMAT? LIBRA, EARTH I'M SO SORRY
7. SOS(orry, so very sorry)
8. LOS Not sure how this happened but it bought a tear to my eye seeing Libra still trying to fight against impossible odds despite the shock of discovering a wheel far more broken than it ever was.
9. SOS :C
10. SOS I can't let this continue. Throwing in the towel for Libra here.
Observations:
Scythe: 9/10 = 90% (3KO, 6OS)
Libra managed an OS somehow but there was seriously no point in continuing after 10 rounds, it couldn't KO scythe and Scythe outspins it very reliably. Maybe if it had a faster RF than Scythe did or its user had a stronger launch it might but yeah, at least in testing Scythe has a clear advantage.
Libra 85RF might be able to OS it if you have a stronger launch, you might get a KO but scythe might KO you back sooooo.
I was playing around with MF-H Earth 85CS/RSF when my launcher disassembled internally. Got a new string today and I find that particular older enclosure doesn't fray strings much but as its string has lost length over time (I think it came from another launcher and it definitely frayed previously), I'm going to take the opportunity to transplant the new, longer string and lube up the inside to prevent future fraying and hopefully make a launcher that I won't break in a couple of hours of heavy use, so I'm done for the night. More tomorrow.
Other Members' Tests
None yet!
TO DO LIST:
Last 10 rounds against MF-H Beat Lynx 90LRF
VS MF-H Earth Aquario 85RSF and CS
VS Libra 85D/MF-H+CS
Vs Libra R145RSF (Libra GB145 is less of a threat than earth because of its underside, maybe R145 will help???)
VS MF-H Libra 230CS
VS Gravity Perseus (Stamina) B:D and maybe MLD 100EWD
VS Lightning 90/CH120RF (Maybe Gravity too)
Tidy up the formatting etc as this looks awful but I'm tired and hungry right now so later/tomorrow.
Also may not test all this stuff, if something looks hopeless in pre-testing I'll probably skip it unless it's something I feel is worth demonstrating as a warning to the format/Ingulit's ideas for counters/notions that this isn't hilariously broken.
Stuff I can't test that needs testing:
Vs MF-H Scythe ___ GB145RSF (go for 120 and aim to KO it)
Vs Gravity F230CF/GCF