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Limited Format Competitive List Discussion (Initial Draft Under Consideration)

Sep. 18, 2014  10:55 PM
 
:: Limited Format Competitive List Discussion ::


This is the official discussion thread for the Limited Format Competitive List. Post thoughts and suggestions!

Current Competitive List: (Click to View)

Current update under consideration: (Click to View)

Previous Lists: (Click to View)
Sep. 19, 2014  12:59 AM
 
The glaring omission for me right now is MSF-H Samurai Wyvang R145RSF/RB for Attack. I know that Gladiator and Shinobi are the more popularly accepted Crystal Wheels for Wyvang right now, and they deserve to be there, but Samurai is a valid alternative. Wyvang alone is aggressive enough in most situations to work effectively; you don't necessarily need the extra recoil that something like Gladiator and Shinobi provide. Case in point: I've won three of four Limited tournaments I've played in using it. It's good enough to be listed.

As for RSF/RB, both provide enough movement on Wyvang to enable KOs on both Stamina and Defense combinations. It's only real weaknesses are Attack combos and TH170/230 combos (in the latter situation, Chrome Up Mode might help).

Also, has anyone tested L Drago Guardian and Destroy extensively? They've seen some use in Toronto recently (LMAO used L Drago Guardian F230CF, for example), and I feel like they are worth consideration. They're heavier than Meteo, and also wider, so they could have use somewhere.
Sep. 19, 2014  1:12 AM
 
(Sep. 19, 2014  12:59 AM)Kei Wrote: As for RSF/RB, both provide enough movement on Wyvang to enable KOs on both Stamina and Defense combinations.

This reminds me - I think that RSF/RB should be up for consideration on most of the RF-based Attack; these Beyblades are light enough that they get a good deal of movement even with the less aggro tip, and they tend to be easier to control and less likely to self-KO or Tornado Stall on accident. Sure, you may not be quite as fast as an RF combo, but you will be pretty close and you will have a great deal more control.
Sep. 19, 2014  1:21 AM
 
Just a few minor nitpicks:

If Screw goes up, it needs to have Uranus. It's the best CW for Screw, better than Horogium and Pisces even. Ionis could work, it's pretty flat, like Horogium without the imbalance.

Dark Knight Wyvang works better on shorter Tracks, specifically DF105LRF and 85RF/R2F/LRF.

Also, I thought there was some kind of agreement to remove Aquario? Kei do you recall anything like this or am I making things up?
Quote:I thought this was basically the consensus that they came to:
(Sep. 12, 2014  6:30 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Aquario- If you have it you gotta love it. Aquario, Cancer, and Cygnus were tied in defense, am I mistaken or what? I'm sure Cancer=Cygnus > Aquario only for stamina, haha.
So if they're tied for Defense but Cygnus and Cancer have better Stamina wouldn't they be considered all-around better choices?

Earth and Burn should probably have their W145WD/EWD and 85WD/EWD lists consolidated, seeing as the Track is the only difference and otherwise they are the same combo.

Should 85 and 90 be on Pegasus?

Also, a few people think Libra could possibly go up for Stamina, and Screw doesn't deserve a spot on the list. I'm personally for adding Libra for Stamina and keeping Screw but if someone else gives a good reason why they shouldn't be up there then that's ok.

I'm still a big supporter of Burn F230CS, and I'll do some tests next weekend.
Sep. 19, 2014  1:42 AM
 
Dark Knight LTAC are absurdly powerful and really should be on the list. I was able to toss Libra around with Dark Knight Genbull in some earlier testing XD

I suddenly remembered some tests I did a while ago after a tournament- for Stamina, Burn > Libra > Earth pretty much all the time. Libra should probably go up for Stamina then, too. I hope I can dig up the testing I did, because re-doing a ton of Stamina tests is going to be really boring if I can't find them Tongue_out
Sep. 19, 2014  3:07 AM
 
Kei: I've never tried Wyvang RSF/RB in LTD once, so I'll take your word for it.

As far as adding Samurai to Wyvang for Attack, I can understand adding it for the stationary customs you were talking about since they lack momentum and could suffer from recoil problems, but I really think Shinobi and Gladiator would work better for pure Attack. They have the same weight, so Samurai doesn't really serve to reduce recoil by any means but its smooth shape, which, even if it does provide some safety in a collision, takes away from the Smash Attack of the combination, which should be prioritized over recoil control when constructing an Attack custom (unless the Attack custom actually has glaring recoil problems, but I don't think that's the case with Wyvang).

As far as I know, Wyvang doesn't have too much trouble with recoil, so I think substituting Samurai for Gladiator or Shinobi would just be trying to fix a problem that isn't there (not to mention it takes away noticeably from Wyvang's ability to handle taller combinations, including F230CF/GCF customs).

Wombat: Yes, I completely forgot Uranus. I will add that in. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for DK LTAC customs, I'm not too sure - I tried them, and yes, they had some extraordinary smash against 145-height combinations, but pretty much only 145-height combinations (that is probably the most prevalent height in the format, but still). I also had trouble with recoil control using them (that may have just been me, but there are other options for taking out the same target that have less recoil trouble). On top of that, Omega does their job worlds better, and simultaneously runs over all other heights like a train.

Of course, I could be wrong; they do have some excellent smash against certain things. I'd be hesitant to list them, but hey.

Cake: That's something I actually wanted to bring up. th!nk was opposed to listing Libra as competitive Stamina when he was still here, and I've heard accounts from multiple old-timers suggesting that Earth and Burn out-do it pretty solidly. There seem to be two sides of the issue, though; I've heard multiple people say what you're saying. Perhaps its due to manufacturing variation or something of that sort.

Kei, what do think about Libra for Stamina? I don't really have a preference personally (in fact, I haven't tested Libra for Stamina all that much - I went mostly off of what th!nk told me about it).

I went and found what appear to be the only Stamina comparisons for Libra in the LTD subforum:

Justaways testing here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LTD-Libr...pid1187448

The Supreme One's testing here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-LTD-Libr...pid1222614

In Justaway's mirror testing, Earth wrecked Libra, but in both sets using Libra Bearing Drive, Earth lost.

It could just be because Bearing Drive is a great Stamina part; or it could be because Libra works really great for Stamina on B:D. We could use more than 3 sets of results form two users, though (multiple users should probably test it if they can, since it seems like people are getting totally different results from each other and it could be due to variation in the Libra Wheel itself).

List was updated; Uranus added for Screw Attack, and MSF-H Samurai Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RSF/RB) added for Wyvang Attack.
Sep. 19, 2014  3:40 AM
 
Libra definitely needs to be added : get Dark_Mousy to post which combinations he used a lot at BEYBLADE GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2. I definitely remember Libra on 230, and he was just using the mould from the BB-96 Super Beyblade Deck Set.

For the rest, except Attack that I have not seen a lot of in my few tournament experiences, I think I can agree with everything.
Sep. 19, 2014  5:55 AM
 
(Sep. 19, 2014  3:40 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Libra definitely needs to be added : get Dark_Mousy to post which combinations he used a lot at BEYBLADE GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2. I definitely remember Libra on 230, and he was just using the mould from the BB-96 Super Beyblade Deck Set.

For the rest, except Attack that I have not seen a lot of in my few tournament experiences, I think I can agree with everything.

I used

Libra 230 D
MF H(M) Libra BGrin(Bearing Drive)
MF H Libra CH120 RF
Sep. 19, 2014  7:18 AM
 
I'm going to keep bringing this up until someone actually does something about it: my favorite combination in limited to this day remains balro dark knight (crystal up) lw105 mf. It's versatility is incredible and I would post a testing thread for it, but I don't have my parts with me.
Sep. 19, 2014  4:41 PM
 
Crescent says that Bakushin with RF/R²F should be added as well as Wyvang with RB and RSF for Smash Attack.
Sep. 19, 2014  6:43 PM
 
(Sep. 19, 2014  3:40 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Libra definitely needs to be added : get Dark_Mousy to post which combinations he used a lot at BEYBLADE GRAND BATTLE TOURNAMENT 2. I definitely remember Libra on 230, and he was just using the mould from the BB-96 Super Beyblade Deck Set.

For the rest, except Attack that I have not seen a lot of in my few tournament experiences, I think I can agree with everything.

Alright then, up it goes.

I will test this myself later today if I can. I'm interested in where the "don't add Libra" arguments are coming from. Was there ever a point in time where Libra's Stamina capability was questioned? I seem to remember some users making the point that its Stamina was inferior to Earth's during the discussion about its unbanning.

Bakushin on an Attack setup? Are you sure? That's been a staple Defense setup since almost the beginning of the format.

This is the only reference to Bakushin Attack I could find on the entire forum (and I've been searching for like 2 hours):

th!nk Wrote:I also managed to get it to work passably for attack playing around with MF-H Bakushin Rex GB145RF for a little, by no means amazing, but pretty neat for something that works decently for defense. It's definitely not competitive but it seems to do pretty solidly against stamina at least.

I haven't tested Bakushin for Attack yet, but it doesn't seem like it would work well.

Does Crescent have testing? A comparison with Screw against R145 Defense would be really awesome if he has the time.

... unless you meant adding RF and R2F as options for Bakushin under Defense, in which case I agree (well, I agree with putting RF on there; I think R2F would probably just serve to decrease crucial Endurance). I actually thought I had already listed Bakushin RF (apparently not; I'll add that now).

EDIT: Oh, and also, does anybody know if Libra on TH170/230 has recoil issues? It seems like its underside would hinder it a little (although sounds like Dark had success with it).

Libra added for Stamina (listed with all competitive setups).
Sep. 20, 2014  9:57 PM
 
(Sep. 19, 2014  1:12 AM)Cake Wrote: This reminds me - I think that RSF/RB should be up for consideration on most of the RF-based Attack; these Beyblades are light enough that they get a good deal of movement even with the less aggro tip, and they tend to be easier to control and less likely to self-KO or Tornado Stall on accident. Sure, you may not be quite as fast as an RF combo, but you will be pretty close and you will have a great deal more control.

Yeah, maybe you're right about RSF/RB being usable for other Attack types. I would think that it wouldn't work out for all of them though; some probably need the speed of RF to work well. Wyvang works well because it doesn't.

(Sep. 19, 2014  1:21 AM)Wombat Wrote: Also, I thought there was some kind of agreement to remove Aquario? Kei do you recall anything like this or am I making things up?

I'm OK with Aquario remaining for Defense. It's not as good for Stamina, but there's no real reason to say it isn't competitive for Defense.

(Sep. 19, 2014  3:07 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Kei: I've never tried Wyvang RSF/RB in LTD once, so I'll take your word for it.

As far as adding Samurai to Wyvang for Attack, I can understand adding it for the stationary customs you were talking about since they lack momentum and could suffer from recoil problems, but I really think Shinobi and Gladiator would work better for pure Attack. They have the same weight, so Samurai doesn't really serve to reduce recoil by any means but its smooth shape, which, even if it does provide some safety in a collision, takes away from the Smash Attack of the combination, which should be prioritized over recoil control when constructing an Attack custom (unless the Attack custom actually has glaring recoil problems, but I don't think that's the case with Wyvang).

As far as I know, Wyvang doesn't have too much trouble with recoil, so I think substituting Samurai for Gladiator or Shinobi would just be trying to fix a problem that isn't there (not to mention it takes away noticeably from Wyvang's ability to handle taller combinations, including F230CF/GCF customs).

You're right that Shinobi and Gladiator would work better for pure Attack. Samurai does make more sense for the R145RSF/RB combo. I personally find Wyvang to have some recoil issues, which is why I use Samurai to begin with.

I do recognize that using Samurai may hinder it's ability against taller customs (a problem I ran into at GBT2), though. But even against taller customs it isn't a completely lost cause if you use Samurai; it might just make the match-up slightly more difficult than if you were using Shinobi. I lost against Dark_Mousy's Libra 230D 3-2 using it, and LMAO's Meteo F230CF 3-1 at GBT2. On the other side however, I have defeated stuff like Gravity Perseus F230GCF in the past using it. In any case, the point is that Samurai is competitive enough to be listed–at least for R145RSF/RB–in my experience.

(Sep. 19, 2014  3:07 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Cake: That's something I actually wanted to bring up. th!nk was opposed to listing Libra as competitive Stamina when he was still here, and I've heard accounts from multiple old-timers suggesting that Earth and Burn out-do it pretty solidly. There seem to be two sides of the issue, though; I've heard multiple people say what you're saying. Perhaps its due to manufacturing variation or something of that sort.

Kei, what do think about Libra for Stamina? I don't really have a preference personally (in fact, I haven't tested Libra for Stamina all that much - I went mostly off of what th!nk told me about it).

There's a reason why Virgo was more popular than Libra back in the day for Stamina: Virgo is slightly better than Libra, and then Wheels like Earth and Burn came in that outclassed Virgo. And I'm pretty sure that Duo is better than all of them now.

The only thing Libra has going for it is that it is heavy, while also possessing decent Stamina. In a mirror match against things like Earth, Burn, and Duo however, I think it would lose. But as was illustrated in the tests you linked to, it can work well enough depending on the match-up. For example, I like the idea of using Libra F230CF/GCF because of the weight advantage it has over regular Stamina Wheels (and the difference between using Libra vs. Earth/Burn/Duo in that instance would probably be negligible).

Is it worth adding to the list? I would say maybe not. It's a bit too far down on the Stamina food chain for my tastes. Not being on the list doesn't mean it is unusable, though. People need to remember that.

Dark_Mousy Wrote:I used

Libra 230 D
MF H(M) Libra BGrin (Bearing Drive)
MF H Libra CH120 RF

Can you remember what your match-ups were, exactly?

(Sep. 19, 2014  6:43 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: EDIT: Oh, and also, does anybody know if Libra on TH170/230 has recoil issues? It seems like its underside would hinder it a little (although sounds like Dark had success with it).

It does. It's recoil was part of the reason why I almost won against Dark_Mousy's Libra 230D using MSF-H Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Up Mode) R125RSF. But at the same time, this recoil can also work favourably if you're lucky. Arupaeo lost against his Libra 230D 3-2 at GBT2 using Duo 230D because of it, even though Duo has better Stamina.
Sep. 20, 2014  11:23 PM
 
Kei Wrote:You're right that Shinobi and Gladiator would work better for pure Attack. Samurai does make more sense for the R145RSF/RB combo. I personally find Wyvang to have some recoil issues, which is why I use Samurai to begin with.

I do recognize that using Samurai may hinder it's ability against taller customs (a problem I ran into at GBT2), though. But even against taller customs it isn't a completely lost cause if you use Samurai; it might just make the match-up slightly more difficult than if you were using Shinobi. I lost against Dark_Mousy's Libra 230D 3-2 using it, and LMAO's Meteo F230CF 3-1 at GBT2. On the other side however, I have defeated stuff like Gravity Perseus F230GCF in the past using it. In any case, the point is that Samurai is competitive enough to be listed–at least for R145RSF/RB–in my experience.

Ah, fair enough. I assume Gladiator and Shinobi should be listed with Wyvang RB/RSF as well, then?

Kei Wrote:There's a reason why Virgo was more popular than Libra back in the day for Stamina: Virgo is slightly better than Libra, and then Wheels like Earth and Burn came in that outclassed Virgo. And I'm pretty sure that Duo is better than all of them now.

The only thing Libra has going for it is that it is heavy, while also possessing decent Stamina. In a mirror match against things like Earth, Burn, and Duo however, I think it would lose. But as was illustrated in the tests you linked to, it can work well enough depending on the match-up. For example, I like the idea of using Libra F230CF/GCF because of the weight advantage it has over regular Stamina Wheels (and the difference between using Libra vs. Earth/Burn/Duo in that instance would probably be negligible).

Is it worth adding to the list? I would say maybe not. It's a bit too far down on the Stamina food chain for my tastes. Not being on the list doesn't mean it is unusable, though. People need to remember that.

Hmmm... really?

It sounds to me at this point like multiple people are testing Libra (mostly against Earth), and getting completely different results. Could it be that the BB96 Libra (the one everybody is using nowadays) is somehow better than the older releases or something? I mean, it could be due to random variation, but with Cake's Libra beating Earth, and your Libra losing to Virgo, I'm not sure something like that would cause such a broad gap in performance.

We should petition for everybody who owns a Libra to post test results using specific setups, so we can compare them. There's so little formal testing at the moment, TBH, that all this Libra > Earth talk could be a total fluke idea set off somewhere in the past.

I will try to get some tests up when I can (although my cousins are coming from Texas this week, and there are a lot of them, so we'll have 14 people in the house and I'll be as busy as carp).

Kei Wrote:It does. It's recoil was part of the reason why I almost won against Dark_Mousy's Libra 230D using MSF-H Samurai Wyvang (Crystal Up Mode) R125RSF. But at the same time, this recoil can also work favourably if you're lucky. Arupaeo lost against his Libra 230D 3-2 at GBT2 using Duo 230D because of it, even though Duo has better Stamina.

That's what I was afraid of. So you think we should leave Libra (TH170/230) (D/SD) off of the list?

EDIT: Got some Libra vs. Earth Stamina comparisons posted here. Took me like 2 hours, haha.
Oct. 26, 2014  2:08 PM
 
Alright, so after seeing Kei's testing this week, I removed Libra from the Stamina section altogether (I think it might warrant an addition sometime in the future, but as of now I agree it's best left alone).

What do you guys think of the list? I'd like to see it posted soon.
Oct. 27, 2014  5:42 AM
 
(Sep. 19, 2014  7:18 AM)Time Wrote: I'm going to keep bringing this up until someone actually does something about it: my favorite combination in limited to this day remains balro dark knight (crystal up) lw105 mf. It's versatility is incredible and I would post a testing thread for it, but I don't have my parts with me.

First, that^

Second, I still really have an issue with those lighter wheels on BGrin (Duo and Burn, Burn especially)
Oct. 27, 2014  11:40 PM
 
Why? They're on W145 as well (which, contrary to popular belief, according to the only testing ever done on the matter, is no more stable than Bearing Drive; even less so, actually).

http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Bearing-...hink-it-is
Nov. 05, 2014  3:29 AM
 
Is there any testing on Burn BGrin somewhere that I'm missing?
Dec. 04, 2014  10:24 PM
 
Time to knock this thing out! Limited has officially been around for a year; it's about time it got its own tier list:

Quote:
Attack

Omega
  • MF-H Omega [Assault] (Horuseus/Pegasis III) (85/90/100/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Cosmic
  • MF-H Cosmic (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) (R145/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Beat
  • MF-H Beat (Lynx/Orion/Escolpio) (H145/GB145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Pegasis
  • MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Lightning
  • MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Screw
  • MF-H Screw (Horogium/Pisces/Uranus) (85/90) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Wyvang
  • MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Dark Knight) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RF/R2F/LRF)
  • MSF-H Samurai Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RSF/RB)

Phoenic
  • MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)


Defense

Earth
  • MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Libra
  • MF-H Libra (85/90/R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Scythe
  • MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
  • MF-H Bakushin Leone (85/90) (RSF/RB/RF)


Stamina

Burn
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)

Earth
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Scythe
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Duo
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 MB

Meteo
  • Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120) EWD


Balance
  • {MF-H} Libra (TH170/SR200) CS
  • {MF-H} (Scythe/Earth) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200) CS
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90) MF
  • MF-H Libra (85/CH120) RF
  • MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
  • Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
  • (Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
  • Libra F230 (CF/GCF)

Alright, so after testing multiple Burn Stamina customs (something I've never actually tested much before) against a few mid-height Defense customs, I think that we should remove all Burn 230 combinations from the Stamina section. Burn's underside recoil is waaaaay too high for me to even consider listing on 230. MSF-H Earth Caner R145RSF trashed Burn Cancer 230SD with no trouble at all for me (Scythe was far worse).

Time: I tested Burn Cancer B : D against MSF-H Earth/Libra/Scythe Cancer R145RSF. It had no trouble with Earth or Libra, but against Scythe, it took a serious beating (W145 did almost as bad; from looking at it closely, it seems to that, because Burn sits high on B : D and Scythe sits low on R145, Burn's underside is almost completely exposed. It wasn't a problem for Earth or Duo, but it seems like B : D is a poor height for a wheel with Burn's shape against mid-height Scythe Defense).

This begs the question of whether or not Burn B : D's specific height disadvantage against one form of conventional mid-height Defense is big enough of a problem to remove it from the list. On the one hand, Scythe is one of the most prevalent wheels in the game, and Burn is clearly incapable of beating it, but on the other, if we look at all the forms of conventional Defense on the list already (Scythe MTDC, Bakushin LTDC, Earth LTDC/MTDC/HTDC, and Libra LTDC/MTDC), Burn is still capable of beating 86% or so of the combinations there.

If we removed B : D from the list, we'd also have to consider whether or not we should remove Burn W145 as well (it isn't quite as vulnerable as B : D, but it's still pretty bad).

All I know is that Burn 230 definitely needs to go; honestly, with how badly it did against Earth R145RSF, I'm willing to be it would even have trouble staying in the stadium against mid-height Scythe Stamina.
Dec. 05, 2014  12:53 AM
 
Burn's recoily underside is especially an issue in a meta where every other Wheel has at least a decent amount of Upper Smash. Look at Omega, Pegasis, Lightning, Screw, Earth, and Scythe. If you go into any given set of tournament winners, you are going to see at least several of those wheels in the list. This is not a friendly environment for stuff with recoily undersides. Mid-track Libra can get away with it a little, but a high-track Stamina custom with a recoily underside is just asking for trouble.

B:D is a little more uncertain. I think it still needs to stay for the moment, but it's definitely a more risky pick. TBH I would pick Earth B:D over Burn any day, but Burn's excellent Stamina may be enough justification to keep it up there, even on mid-height setups.

I would also like to restate my gripes with the Attack section, but honestly the state of Attack is kind of controversial and a matter of personal preference right now anyways, so it's probably best to just get a list up there and knock things off or add new ones as more testing appears. Regarding testing, is there enough data to justify Beat's place on the list even after all those falsified tests were exposed? I was under the impression that there wasn't much to begin with.

EDIT: Yeah, I just double-checked the Metal Fury Beat discussion and the only valid tests were kind of eh. Though, apparently, TBD has had some success with it. If we could get some more tests done on it, it could be confirmed one way or another, but right now I'm not sure there's enough to stick it on the list. If people who have done well at tournaments with Beat could speak up as well, that would be very useful.
^ looking at you, public discussion ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ^
Dec. 05, 2014  4:37 AM
 
I'm pretty sure Leone19 did a bunch of testing with a while back.

I had a lot of success with it. I remember th!nk saying that he couldn't get any kind of consistency out of it, though, so it's possible my experience is isolated.
Dec. 05, 2014  4:54 AM
 
Other than adding tb to scythe th170/230 and possibly removing screw from the list it looks pretty good to me.
Dec. 05, 2014  10:20 PM
 
It would appear, from looking at the public discussion, that pretty much everyone thinks Screw shouldn't be on the list. Personally, I would have to agree.

For anyone interested, here's what the top-tier list would look like, strictly based on my own opinions, as well as some more discussion questions about the list.
Spoiler (Click to View)
Dec. 05, 2014  11:04 PM
 
Er... I wouldn't add Dark Knight LTAC or RSF/RB Attack customs just yet. They need much more testing (especially RSF/RB Attack; as far as I know, that's only been tested on one setup).

Same thing with Beat, actually. Crescent and I were the only ones who tested Beat MTAC, and now that we know his were fabricated, we have no confirmation. I say we remove it, and maybe test it over Christmas Break if any of us have time (along with DK LTAC and other things).

Time: TB was tested on several setups already (by yours truly and others), and it didn't do too well at all. I'd personally leave it off until we have more formal testing.

I personally love Screw, but you're right; it's not particularly versatile as far as height matchups go, and everybody else seems to hate it, haha. Off the list it goes.

Here we go:

Quote:
Attack

Omega
  • MF-H Omega [Assault] (Horuseus/Pegasis III) (85/90/100/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Cosmic (Metal Fury)
  • MF-H Cosmic (Kerbecs/Unicorno II) (R145/CH120) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Pegasis
  • MF-H Pegasis (CH120/R145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Lightning
  • MF-H Lightning L-Drago [Upper] (85/90/CH120/R145/TR145) (RF/R2F/LRF)

Wyvang
  • MSF-H (Shinobi/Gladiator/Dark Knight) Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RF/R2F/LRF)
  • MSF-H Samurai Wyvang [Crystal-Up] R145 (RSF/RB)

Phoenic
  • MSF-H Thief Phoenic [Crystal-Up] (R145/H145) (RF/R2F/LRF)


Defense

Earth
  • MF-H Earth (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90/R145/GB145/TH170/230) (RSF/RB)

Libra
  • MF-H Libra (85/90/R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
  • MF-H Scythe (Aquario/Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (R145/GB145) (RSF/RB)

Bakushin
  • MF-H Bakushin Leone (85/90) (RSF/RB/RF)


Stamina

Burn
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)

Earth
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 85 (WD/EWD)
  • Earth (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Scythe (Metal Fury)
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)

Duo (Metal Fury)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) W145 (WD/EWD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) B:D
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/230) (D/SD)
  • Duo (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) 230 MB

Meteo
  • Meteo L-Drago (TR145/ED145/CH120) EWD


Balance
  • {MF-H} Libra (TH170/SR200) CS
  • {MF-H} (Scythe/Earth) (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (TH170/SR200) CS
  • Burn (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) (85/90) MF
  • MF-H Libra (85/CH120) RF
  • MF-H Scythe (Cygnus/Cancer/Hades) CH120 RF
  • Meteo L-Drago F230 (CF/GCF)
  • (Duo/Scythe) (Cancer/Cygnus/Hades) F230 (CF/GCF)
  • Libra F230 (CF/GCF)

I love this list. There are a few things that could conceivably be added, but I think we can all agree that they don't have enough testing yet. I'd suggest that we post this now, do some testing, and maybe make a couple additions later this winter if we need to.

I like this a lot. I really don't see anything I disagree with at all (I'm disappointed about Beat, but I definitely agree it needs more testing before we list it).

Assuming we're planning on posting this soon, could you guys write up a list of things to test for an update sometime later (like maybe in February)?
Dec. 05, 2014  11:40 PM
 
(Dec. 05, 2014  11:04 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Er... I wouldn't add Dark Knight LTAC or RSF/RB Attack customs just yet. They need much more testing (especially RSF/RB Attack; as far as I know, that's only been tested on one setup).

Same thing with Beat, actually. Crescent and I were the only ones who tested Beat MTAC, and now that we know his were fabricated, we have no confirmation. I say we remove it, and maybe test it over Christmas Break if any of us have time (along with DK LTAC and other things).

Time: TB was tested on several setups already (by yours truly and others), and it didn't do too well at all. I'd personally leave it off until we have more formal testing.

I personally love Screw, but you're right; it's not particularly versatile as far as height matchups go, and everybody else seems to hate it, haha. Off the list it goes.

Here we go:
Spoiler (Click to View)
I love this list. There are a few things that could conceivably be added, but I think we can all agree that they don't have enough testing yet. I'd suggest that we post this now, do some testing, and maybe make a couple additions later this winter if we need to.

I like this a lot. I really don't see anything I disagree with at all (I'm disappointed about Beat, but I definitely agree it needs more testing before we list it).

Assuming we're planning on posting this soon, could you guys write up a list of things to test for an update sometime later (like maybe in February)?
As much as I like RSF/RB Attack and DK combos, I would have to agree - they do need more testing.

With Screw and Beat off the list (at least for now, I really hope Beat turns out to be something good) I think that it's ready to go. Testing seems to be the biggest issue at the moment.

Here's a list of everything that needs more tests, as far as I know:
-Beat MTAC (MF-H Beat ____ GB145RF maybe?)
-Dark Knight LTAC (MSF-H Dark Knight Girago [Crystal-Up] 85RF)
-RSF/RB as a more passive substitute for classic flat tips on Attack types
-Libra Stamina
Dec. 06, 2014  1:57 AM
 
Awesome.

Oh, and as little testing as I've done with Dark Knight LTACs, MSF-H Dark Knight Bahamdia [Crystal-Up] 85RF did absolutely outstanding. Genbull was pretty decent as well, as was Gryph (not sure whether Gryph was better than Bahamdia or not - it's been a while).

I have piles of rubber Attack/Defense Bottoms sitting around, and like 4 Dark Knights (which I hear are somewhat fragile; haven't confirmed that, but just in case I've got plenty of extras). I can do the Dark Knight LTAC testing sometime within the next couple of weeks. I can also do more Beat testing. I'll probably use MF-H Beat Lynx H145R2F, and MF-H Beat Lynx 85R2F, against some staple Earth Defense customs, benchmarking with Pegasis (I'll benchmark using Lightning LTAC for the DK testing).

I've already done plenty of testing with TB, so if you guys (or any other members reading this thread) could do some TB testing with Scythe (and Duo if you've got the chance and the parts), that would be great.

Testing Attack customs with stationary Rubber Bottoms would be a more long-term project. I'd suggest trying Omega and Phoenic first (Pegasis, Lightning, and especially Cosmic might suffer from recoil issues), specifically MF-H Omega Horuseus 85RB (I haven't tried it yet, but I thought it over and I'm pretty sure it would KO like a beast against mid-height customs. I can't imagine that it would have a lot of trouble against shorter customs, being Omega and all, but it is possible - best to use the lowest height available in that case).

Pending further testing, I'd personally support listing Libra MTSC combinations at some point in the future, given the amazing results I got with them (I'm convinced 145/160 is the magic height for Libra; on any other height, Earth, Burn, Duo and Scythe will cream it, but on W145WD it'll trounce Duo in a mirror match).
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