Fyuuor swears by it.

Damn tooting I do!

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I thought that these videos should go nicely with the discussion of how MF - H Libra GB145RS holds up against Attack Type Beyblades now.

MF Pegasus 85RF VS MF - H Libra GB145RS

MF Meteo L Drago 90R2F VS MF - H Libra GB145RS

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Just a quick note before we get carried away MF - H Libra 230RS achieves a 90 -100% win rate over MF Vulcan Horuseus 85R2F and MF Meteo L Drago 90R2F.

I'm making a series of videos demonstrating different Track Heights effectiveness against MF - H Libra 230RS, I'll post the links for the videos soon.

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Its fine that a defense type would have a 90%-100% win rate against attack types.

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Its fine that a defense type would have a 90%-100% win rate against attack types.

Ideally you would want Defence types to be a viable option, but them having a 90 -100% win rate over Attack Types brings about the whole issue of why it was banned in the first place.

Competitively the only country which seems to be thriving with Attack Types is Italy, in every other Tournament around the World Attack Type Beyblades have rarely won a Tournament and this is during the ban on Libra in the past year whilst having Attack Wheels such as Vulcan, Gravity, Lightning, Pegasus, Meteo, Ray and Leone all being at a persons disposal. In controlled settings where there is no pressure Attack Types win rate over Defence Types range from 50 - 90% whilst in a Competitive Battle these results are rarely reflected due to the risk of Self KO’s and an Attack Type Beyblades inability to land a decent hit in the crucial moments of the match.

Don’t let controlled testings fool you, the combo choices of participants in Tournaments is not reflected by the results of testing with the majority of Tournament victories are won by a participant using a Stamina combination as evident in Kei’s last Tournament victory.

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Though on another note what do we do about Basalt if it turns out to be just as useful as Libra if not more so? Do we ban it? Un ban Libra whilst Banning Basalt? Restrict the parts that it can be customized with? While I believe that Libra should remain banned to balance out Tournament play, I do believe that we can’t continue banning parts which are released.

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Libra wasn't banned for having those results against attack types. Having these results only against attack types does not constitute being banned, but rather a top tier part.

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Your exactly right no it doesn't, however when that one part has Stamina and Attack properties while metaphorically speaking being Defensively as strong as a Brick Wall then it poses a problem, ecspically to Attack Types which suffer already in a Competitive Situation without Libra's existence in game play.

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Attack types are only suffering because players don't practice shooting enough. Plus, I think (I'm not sure because I lack the parts to test this) Libra based defense combos can be beaten by top tier stamina combos. Also, the only attack type property that Libra has is how it's weight is distributed.

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I don't think the question we should be answering right now is 'How good is Libra', but rather 'How good is Libra compared to Earth'.


Also MF is coming out, which should make Libra + RS not very scary at all.

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Attack types are only suffering because players don't practice shooting enough.

I will acknowledge that players need to practise their shooting techniques in order to be more efficient in controlling their RF. However, being able to control your RF combo in a controlled environment as opposed to a Tournament situation is completely different. During controlled testing a player doesn’t need to deal with the added stress, pressure and nerves of a Tournament battle all while jostling for space inside the Beystadium in order to effectively manoeuvre their RF combo while avoiding Self KO’s. Due to these variables being in place practicing and testing will continue to be flawed.

Plus, I think (I'm not sure because I lack the parts to test this) Libra based defense combos can be beaten by top tier stamina combos.

Of course Libra Defence Combos can be beaten by pure Stamina Types, that was the problem to begin with. Due to Attack Types being ineffective against Libra the only way to defeat Libra Defence Combos was by using a Stamina Type Beyblade which forced the game into Rock, Paper, Scissors Mode which became exceedingly boring and stale at Tournaments.

Also, the only attack type property that Libra has is how it's weight is distributed.

That's what made Libra so powerful, Libra's weight distribution lent itself to being used as an Attack type, ie MF Libra CH120RF. In Attack VS Attack battles Libra practically always wins due to it possessing amazing Defence qualities along with Attack and Stamina properties

I don't think the question we should be answering right now is 'How good is Libra', but rather 'How good is Libra compared to Earth'.

Generally Libra performs better Defensively then Earth, but both Wheels perform completely differently against the same combo’s due to recoil, but on average Libra has the better win rates.

Also MF is coming out, which should make Libra + RS not very scary at all.

We’ll just have to wait and see, who knows MF - H Libra 230RS/CS may still pose a risk, though more so with CS.

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Didn't Libra CH120RF win by meager percentages against laughable combos?
iirc Libra CH120RF managed a 55% win rate agaist Libra C145WB.

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I don't think you should consider the pressures of the tournament scene like that. This is a competitive beyblade community. If someone can't perform in a competition it's that person's fault. Practice more. We shouldn't change the metagame to accomadate people not being able to deal with pressure.

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Didn't Libra CH120RF win by meager percentages against laughable combos?
iirc Libra CH120RF managed a 55% win rate agaist Libra C145WB.

Libra C145WB isn't that bad of a Defence Combo. Though Libra's main Attacking strength is being used in Attack VS Attack battles, it's practically untouchable.

I don't think you should consider the pressures of the tournament scene like that. This is a competitive beyblade community. If someone can't perform in a competition it's that person's fault. Practice more. We shouldn't change the metagame to accomadate people not being able to deal with pressure.

There factors nonetheless whether or not a player can deal with them is regardless since there variables which have become a factor so much so that players opt not to use Attack Types in Competitive battles. I'm not saying that we should completely change the Meta Game but consider pressure as a contributing factor to stunting the true power of an Attack Type.

This second part lends itself to another discussion but a better designed Stadium for Attack Types would help immensely, personally I always liked the Tornado Balance but more particularly Tornado Balance Type S.

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I think the tournament situation was highly considered when taking the decision to ban Libra, so saying that we should ignore it makes no sense ... Libra was banned from the Organized Play Rules, which essentially regulate the tournaments ...

I'm not saying that we should ignore the tournament scene. I think i should have been more clear instead of just saying "like that". I meant that we shouldn't consider that players are opting not to use attack types just because they can't control them. This is like changing the rules because some players aren't as good as others. The Italian bladers seem to be using attack types just fine.

I think TBTS caters too much to attack types. All battles in this stadium would be attack vs attack. I think a stadium similar to the Tornado Attack stadium would be ideal.

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Did some more Stamina tests, just to make sure that last time wasn't a fluke:

Attack Stadium
Launcher Grip + BeyLauncher for both
BeyLaunchers/B Bottoms switched half way through
Alternated who was shot first half way through


Libra (Second Mold) 100B vs. Earth (First Mold) Bull 100B
Libra 100B: 0 wins
Earth Bull 100B: 10 wins
Libra win percentage: 0%

This struck me as really odd, but then I realized that unlike last time, I was using BeyLaunchers instead of Right Launchers. I did the tests again, but with Right Launchers to see if that was the difference:

Libra (Second Mold) 100B vs. Earth (First Mold) Bull 100B
Libra 100B: 6 wins
Earth Bull 100B: 9 wins
Libra win percentage: 40%

Well, it made some sort of difference! The results are essentially the opposite of what they were last time though. I'm not sure why ... if someone else could do the same tests I'm doing (with both BeyLaunchers and Right Launchers), I would appreciate it.

And here is how it did against Burn:

Libra (Second Mold) 100B vs. Burn (First Mold) Pisces 100B
Libra 100B: 2 wins
Burn Pisces 100B: 18 wins
Libra win percentage: 10%

I didn't even realize I was using Pisces instead of Bull until I was already half way through the tests. Both of Libra's wins were by KO. I suppose it should also be noted that these were done with BeyLaunchers like the first set of tests.

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Normally I wouldn't say that we should accommodate those players, but it seems as though it’s the majority of entrants in Tournaments are opting not to use Attack Types either due to the mounting pressures of a Tournament environment or their inability to control an RF combo competitively. If there’s particular piece that’s changing the entire structure of Tournament play then I think it should be looked into either banning or restricting that pieces involvement within the Meta -Game, in this case Libra.

Perhaps there's something else at play with the Italian Tournament Scene. I've been thinking about this for a little bit now, to control an RF and become successful at Tournament level you need considerable practice in being able to combat the pressure of a Tournament while fending off your opponent for Stadium space and most of all avoiding Self KO's under pressure and being able to perform shooting techniques immaculately. I’m not sure about yourself on whether or not you meet up regularly with other members or other Bladers but I’m quite confident that the Italian community do. Due to them meeting up there able to practise these sort of things in a controlled environment while battling friends where as if I were to practice in a controlled environment it would be by myself due to there being hardly any Bladers around my area, thus Italian members are able to train themselves for Tournament play.

There could be other factors, at the time when these Tournament were conducted when Attack Types won, the Italian Communities Defence customs hadn't progressed to using RS or RSF while continuing to use WB. The age limit of those using Attack Types and winning are significantly greater then the majority of other entrants.

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I figured it was important to mention this; recently, at Toronto tournaments I feel like I've been seeing the use of Attack types rise. If I remember correctly, TehBrownSauce won the tournament we had on October 31st with MF Pegasis 145RF.

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Regardless of the Libra wheel's existence, most people would still have opted out of using the attack types because of the tournament pressure and inability to control RF.

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I think I've found the answer to how the Italian Community have mastered using an RF Combo in a Tournament Situation whilst not having to worry about Self KO’s and Tournament pressure.

From the information I've been able to gather by watching Driger GT videos I've come to two conclusions. I believe that those Italian members whom competed in 'Play With The Panda' while being able to control an RF Combo Competitively were all using a significantly worn RF. This allows a user to control an RF combo significantly a lot easier while allowing them to still have enough raw Attack Power to defeat Defence Types and Stamina Types while completely avoiding Self KO's.

For the second factor I believe that during the early stages of MFB Italian Members simply preferred to use Attack Types while competing in smaller Tournaments with the large majority if not all using Attack Types which gave a false impression of the Italian Tournament Scene. During these smaller Tournaments the participants simply engaged in Attack VS Attack battles so a simple straight shot was proficient enough to win a battle, during this stage a Semi-Worn RF/Fresh RF was used for extra speed. There is footage of Italian Members encountering a Defence Type and losing without scoring a KO during this time, the Defence Combination ended up winning the entire Tournament.


During the time of 'Play With The Panda' entrant numbers increased dramatically which meant more participants used Defence Types. In an attempt to counter the increased use of Defence Types participants began to switch to a significantly worn RF. Since the presence of Attack Types decreased as a direct result Attack VS Attack battles didn’t occur as much thus the tactic of using a Fresh/Semi - Worn RF with a straight shot was longer viable. Because of the increasing presence of Defence Types this forced Italian Members to control their RF combo but due to using a Fresh/Semi -Worn RF performing this task became incredibly difficult. In order to maintain an advantage over Defence Types whilst not using a Stamina Type and adding increased controllability Italian Members began to use a significantly worn RF. In the video footage of ’Play With The Panda’ the participants seen battling in the Finals are all launching at 100% or very close, though weirdly they're RF combination moves with only a fraction of the speed originally shown in the videos before ’Play With The Panda’ when Attack Types were prominent whilst 'Play With The Panda' is the first time in Driger GT's video footage that Italian Members have demonstrated any other shooting technique other then a straight shot.

Seriously, bravo.


Now we should get some Italian members soon who could hopefully confirm all of this.

/somewhatofatangent/
Because Libra is somewhat rare, and so many people use Stamina combos in tournaments right now anyways, I don't think the reintroduction of Libra would really damage the metagame at all, at least not in NA.
I'm sort of opting for a temp repeal, just to see how it would go.

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note that play with the panda had majorly kids in it and i'm talking about non wbo users, so yeah that's not a viable test.
consider that the one playing defense is... me XD

now, back to the topic.
it's a lot of time i wanted to post here.
In my opinion, libra isn't game breaking anymore.

From my tests, MF-H Libra GB145 RS (i don't have 230 yet, i'll test it this saturday) is an excellent defense combo, and unless your opponent is a low opposite spin user, it will have a solid win % against attack combos.
Is it really a problem? don't think so cause it is supposed to do that good against attack types (maybe 230 avoids the opposite spin issue too)
but let's think about that.
It's a combo that loses against stamina, which is no news, but also loses to earth based defense combos.
so it loses against 2 types of beyblade, which surely isn't a good thing
i also wonder if our attack top tier, MF Gravity Perseus H145 RF is able to outspin a 230 RS/RSF/CS user while shot in left spin.
i almost forgot to mention that from my tests, CS loses way more matches by ko than RS or RSF

Back to "old times" Libra CH120 RF isn't game breaking too.
It has good chances vs attack combos except against 85+upper use (in our metagame, since earth 90 rf and virgo 90 rf are anti meta top tiers, they would be a problem to beat as well)
it has no chance against defense with new defense tools (RS anyone?)
it does ok against stamina combos

That's pretty much it, i think that libra re instatement wouldn't be something to fear at all.

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note that play with the panda had majorly kids in it and i'm talking about non wbo users, so yeah that's not a viable test.
consider that the one playing defense is... me XD

now, back to the topic.
it's a lot of time i wanted to post here.
In my opinion, libra isn't game breaking anymore.

From my tests, MF-H Libra GB145 RS (i don't have 230 yet, i'll test it this saturday) is an excellent defense combo, and unless your opponent is a low opposite spin user, it will have a solid win % against attack combos.
Is it really a problem? don't think so cause it is supposed to do that good against attack types (maybe 230 avoids the opposite spin issue too)
but let's think about that.

Fair point. Just say we introduce Libra back into the Meta Game what do we do about Basalt if it turns out to be even more effective for Defence?
BTW 230 combos avoid having spin stolen from them from Left Spin Low Track Attack Combos.

Back to "old times" Libra CH120 RF isn't game breaking too.
It has good chances vs attack combos except against 85+upper use (in our metagame, since earth 90 rf and virgo 90 rf are anti meta top tiers, they would be a problem to beat as well)

My main concern with Libra in an Attack combo is that it'll work very similar to how your Anti Meta combos work, in Attack VS Attack battles Libra is extremely difficult to beat.

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Good point, but i don't think that's enough to ban a piece.
to my eyes, you make libra look good, not overpowered, which is completely fine.

as i thought, spin stealing issue is avoided by 230 track.

about basalt: we need to test its stamina potential, will it beat earth? even with that, earth isn't banned, and i don't see a specific reason to ban a cool defense piece, there are still stamina combos out there.

i agree that libra is tough to beat in attack vs attack, anyway in my opinion it's still not "worth a ban"

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Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

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I suppose if we go under the logic that a Defence type is supposed to have a 100% win rate against Attack Types then I say unban it.

Looking at this a little differently it's as if we don't have an assortment wheels to defeat Libra GB145/230RS we could always use Lightning, Gravity (Left Spin) or Meteo and simply rely on the spin stealing and destabilzing effects of the wheels.

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