I said against some, also a 45-50% win rate isn't wiping the floor... when you consider that Kei's testing against other top tier stamina wheels with resulted in way more lopsided victories for burn so I'd say it would still be top tier.
EDIT: Thermal and Burn are both top tier. check this out. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Staminat...taminathon
DOUBLE EDIT: Look at burns results vs other top tier wheels. Libra's test would put it second under burn. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Stamina-...taminathon

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I said against some, also a 45-50% win rate isn't wiping the floor... when you consider that Kei's testing against other top tier stamina wheels with resulted in way more lopsided victories for burn so I'd say it would still be top tier.

Kei's tests on Thermal conflicted with mine. Just sayin'. This is why more people need to test than just one or two. One or two give a good indication. Four or five proves veracity.

EDIT: Also, since you're supposed to disregard draws, it's more of a 70% win rate.

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All three of these sets of results, however, have at least temporarily proved you wrong, and unless someone comes up with convincing data showing otherwise, this discussion will remain in my favor.

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I said against some, also a 45-50% win rate isn't wiping the floor... when you consider that Kei's testing against other top tier stamina wheels with resulted in way more lopsided victories for burn so I'd say it would still be top tier.

Kei's tests on Thermal conflicted with mine. Just sayin'. This is why more people need to test than just one or two. One or two give a good indication. Four or five proves veracity.

EDIT: Also, since you're supposed to disregard draws, it's more of a 70% win rate.

Why would you disregard draws?

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Look at my edit and look at burn's win percentages against other wheels.

EDIT: There isn't a win rate under 80%, I think it's safe to say that Libra would still be top tier stamina.

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I said against some, also a 45-50% win rate isn't wiping the floor... when you consider that Kei's testing against other top tier stamina wheels with resulted in way more lopsided victories for burn so I'd say it would still be top tier.
EDIT: Thermal and Burn are both top tier. check this out. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Staminat...taminathon
DOUBLE EDIT: Look at burns results vs other top tier wheels. Libra's test would put it second under burn. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Stamina-...taminathon

Please note that none of this has to do with Libra.
Don't grasp at straws.

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Why would you disregard draws?

Because in a tournament setting they neither help nor hinder you.

EDIT: Thermal and Burn are both top tier. check this out. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Staminat...taminathon
DOUBLE EDIT: Look at burns results vs other top tier wheels. Libra's test would put it second under burn. http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Stamina-...taminathon

Pretty sure I know the results in my own thread. I'm also saying I always disagreed with Thermal being top tier because in my own personal testing it has never faired well.

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Well just do this, add daegor's test to Burn's other tests and you'll see why this has to do with libra.

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...It really doesn't
It's just circular logic.

Flame Bull 145SD beats MF Earth Bull GB145WB beat MF L Drago 100WF so therefore Flame Bull 145SD beats MF L Drago 100WF

See how it doesn't work?

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What Frownie's saying is that the only tests you can apply to Libra's effectiveness are tests that directly involve Libra.

Look, I'll do some Libra as Stamina tests later today, a'ight? The best thing for either side of this discussion is to cool off for now. Wait for some more test reults before you bite each other's heads off again, eh?

EDIT: By later today, I mean in like 12 hours, so don't get antsy.

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Thanks Daegor, I look forward to your results.
And this is my new favorite thread.

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...It really doesn't
It's just circular logic.

Flame Bull 145SD beats MF Earth Bull GB145WB beat MF L Drago 100WF so therefore Flame Bull 145SD beats MF L Drago 100WF

See how it doesn't work?

But that's totally different... You just basically compared oranges with apples. In that situation, no, but in this, Burn Bull beats Flame Bull with 90% win rate and beats Libra with 70% win rate then yes I can almost guarantee that Libra will beat Flame Bull.

EDIT: Also, this is probably the best argument I've had in a while. Hard to come by a person as persistent as you.

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LOL
If this were true, attack types would be utter garbage, which they aren't, and Libra CH120RF would not have been top tier.

Please note also that libra was top tier stamina LAST YEAR, with the B bottom as an option.
Many new stamina wheels have certainly outclassed it.

The thing is, people keep basing their posts off of the same hollow logic that "Banning Libra has opened up new options in the metagame". This isn't necessarily true, people started to experiment more, and thats at least partially how new types developed. It's just people branching out and experimenting, instead of falling into a rut, such as we are now. The competitive combos thread really needs updated, but it hasn't, so people are mistakenly using combos that I would say are even the best. There's plenty of parts with unexplored potential, and I think the game has reached a point where there are enough releases to counter Libra. In fact, without Libra, the metagame suffers, as defense is a sub-par type, with terrible win rates against the type of customizations it's supposed to be good against.

Note, I am not speaking about Libra CH120RF here at all, I have no opinion on that as I have not seen it or used it.

EDIT: That's how CS is supposed to work, btw.

*faceplam* seriously?

Try it out bro, slding shoot an RF combo 20 times in MFB attack your self ko the majority of the time.Also when members test RF combos they Dont count self kos so it being top tier doesnt mean to much when the luck involved with using it is so high.I belive i rember reading about a tournement last year when brad used Libra CH120RF and couldnt get it going and was self ko'ing alot so switched to a deffence or stamina combo cant rember what he said he switched to tho.

On paper attack combos are very good but actully using them competivly is all about luck tbh. Some days you can get attack combos to work well other days they just self ko constantly.

Which is a big point with the libra banning, although bottoms like WF,F,and HF still have yet to find use with the banning but still they are now quite viable because of libra being banned.

Yeah so libra as a stamina wheel is somewhat outclassed, it still doesnt mean it isnt usefull as a stamina wheel. Which is another big point with it, libra can be utizled in pretty much every style of play. Would you rather just have beyblade revolving pretty much just about one wheel?

Um if thats how CS is spose to work then with the logic it isnt a good part. If it switchs to attack mode by its self then circles the stadium and doesnt have a very good attack pattern then how is it useful?it wont be making contact with a deffence or stamina beyblade staying in the middle of the stadium.

hah i find it funny how you say the more new combos being discovered isnt a result of libras banning, seriously before the banning it seemed to me that members had the whole "whats the point" feeling to finding out and testing new combos, because libra dominated everything. Aswell as RF being the only viable option for attack combos and its inconsistance makes it in a sense not as viable.

I get what your saying about having libra banned hurts the deffence side of beyblade and i mentioned that in my 1st post, but seriously there new parts coming out for deffence aswell as alot of other parts that have potenital to be used in deffence combos which havent been tested yet.

IMO bringing libra back atm will only hurt the meta game again, alot of combos will be come less usefull again, if we had a new attack stadium with a ridge that works like it should, IMO that should be the only time we should bring libra back. Because with the stadiums we have atm attack types still have quite a large disadvantage compared to deffence and stamina types.

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An attack type may be tricky to use, but it doesn't self KO most of the time. Everyone knows that a properly worn RF can overcome the poor design of the Attack stadium's ridge.

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But that's totally different... You just basically compared oranges with apples. In that situation, no, but in this, Burn Bull beats Flame Bull with 90% win rate and beats Libra with 70% win rate then yes I can almost guarantee that Libra will beat Flame Bull.

Wheels preform differently vs. other wheels.
Flame isn't top-tier anymore btw.

EDIT: Also, this is probably the best argument I've had in a while.

Glad to see you agree.

*faceplam* seriously?

Great way to start a rebuttal right there.

Try it out bro, slding shoot an RF combo 20 times in MFB attack your self ko the majority of the time.

See LVJ's post

Also when members test RF combos they Dont count self kos so it being top tier doesnt mean to much when the luck involved with using it is so high.

If this were the case Libra CH120RF is garbage

I belive i rember reading about a tournement last year when brad used Libra CH120RF and couldnt get it going and was self ko'ing alot so switched to a deffence or stamina combo cant rember what he said he switched to tho.

This, if anything, shows Libra's weakness

On paper attack combos are very good but actully using them competivly is all about luck tbh. Some days you can get attack combos to work well other days they just self ko constantly.

Luck is not a factor, it's being consistent with your launches

Which is a big point with the libra banning, although bottoms like WF,F,and HF still have yet to find use with the banning but still they are now quite viable because of libra being banned.

HF? F? If LIbra CH120RF (according to your info about RF) then beating Libra with a stamina combo should be no problem, and if stamina is a common type, then attack types will probably be used even more to counter them. More balanced gameplay

Yeah so libra as a stamina wheel is somewhat outclassed,

Yes, quite so, for attack and defense. It is a great defense wheel though.

it still doesnt mean it isnt usefull as a stamina wheel. Which is another big point with it, libra can be utizled in pretty much every style of play.

But apparently it sucks at every style of play? Aside from defense of course.

Would you rather just have beyblade revolving pretty much just about one wheel?

It isn't/won't be

Um if thats how CS is spose to work then with the logic it isnt a good part. If it switchs to attack mode by its self then circles the stadium and doesnt have a very good attack pattern then how is it useful?it wont be making contact with a deffence or stamina beyblade staying in the middle of the stadium.

That's just how it works, lol.

hah i find it funny how you say the more new combos being discovered isnt a result of libras banning, seriously before the banning it seemed to me that members had the whole "whats the point" feeling to finding out and testing new combos, because libra dominated everything.

See new combos weren't used because Libra was used, it was because people wouldn't take time to come up with anything new, therefore Libra's banning is not the direct reason for new combos being found. New combos are being found all the time now that could have destroyed Libra then. (MF Pegasis 145RF)

Aswell as RF being the only viable option for attack combos and its inconsistance makes it in a sense not as viable.

So Libra CH120RF therefore sucks and Libra can only be used as a stamina wheel.
Perfect.

I get what your saying about having libra banned hurts the deffence side of beyblade and i mentioned that in my 1st post, but seriously there new parts coming out for deffence aswell as alot of other parts that have potenital to be used in deffence combos which havent been tested yet.

Defense as a whole is doing quite teribly, yes, and would benefit from Libras reintroduction

IMO bringing libra back atm will only hurt the meta game again, alot of combos will be come less usefull again,

MF Pegasis 145 RF has an 80% win rate vs. Libra

Because with the stadiums we have atm attack types still have quite a large disadvantage compared to deffence and stamina types.

Attack types still destory stamina types, and attack types SHOULD do bad against defense types.

tl;dr Libra is crucial for defense to become a usable type, though its power is not overwhelming, and can only contribute to the metagames development.

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An attack type may be tricky to use, but it doesn't self KO most of the time. Everyone knows that a properly worn RF can overcome the poor design of the Attack stadium's ridge.

i have 3 RF's, one worn to the point where the hole thing is no longer there,one semi worn and one new. The 1 thats woren to the point where the hole thing is gone can overcome the ridge of the staidum but has a huge sacrife of speed.

The one semi worn one can stay in probley just over half the time and still has its decent speed.And of course the new one has more speed but self ko's well over half the time.

And when i used to have libra and test RF combos agaisnt it the trade off of speed for control would make it almost always fail against MF libra C145WB.


@Mc Frown
what , you just quoted my post and said nothing

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I don't know if it's me, but I tend to get consistent results with attack combos. Maybe I'm just that good...

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I don't know if it's me, but I tend to get consistent results with attack combos. Maybe I'm just that good...

I get consistent results with Attack combos. I self KO in testing maybe 10% of the time?
It's just tournaments I suck at.

@Mc Frown
what , you just quoted my post and said nothing

He's editing his post slowly to rebutt every line, I think.

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He's editing his post slowly to rebutt every line, I think.

Yuppp, just finished.

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Why would you disregard draws?

Because in a tournament setting they neither help nor hinder you.

If I do 100 matches with two combos, and one wins sixty percent of time, loses thirty percent of the time, and draws ten percent of the time, then this combo has a sixty percent chance of defeating the combo. If you don't count the draws then your result will be that your combo will win 67% of the time. This means that your test was inaccurate, and you will believe that this combo will have a certain win percentage when in fact it has a lower one. You will use this in the finals of a tournament. No?

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*snip*

The thing is in a tournament draws are disregarded anyway. They don't help or hurt you there, so why keep them in the test? I make note of how often the combos draw, but nowadways I also redo the tests.

The point is it doesn't matter what the draw rate really is, because draws don't count in a tournament.

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Thought: we take people for and against Libra, put them on teams (no committee members on either team), each team comes up with one solid essay that attempts to prove our side and refute the others, then we each make a post the 1st and 2nd posts of a new thread (which contains a poll) the users vote (no one on either team can vote), and the committee can dmake the final descision on the issue, it seems fair.

Then no one posts on the thread and votes are cast (votes do not determine victor, committee members make final decision).
(Obviously the anti-bans post first as they're the ones trying to change how it is currently)
We should have maybe a month or two to prep, to account for testing, brainstorming, and writing.

I will now formally submit this plan to Kai-V.

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Expect a response in place of this post later.

But that's totally different... You just basically compared oranges with apples. In that situation, no, but in this, Burn Bull beats Flame Bull with 90% win rate and beats Libra with 70% win rate then yes I can almost guarantee that Libra will beat Flame Bull.

Wheels preform differently vs. other wheels.
Flame isn't top-tier anymore btw.

EDIT: Also, this is probably the best argument I've had in a while.

Glad to see you agree.

*faceplam* seriously?

Great way to start a rebuttal right there.

Try it out bro, slding shoot an RF combo 20 times in MFB attack your self ko the majority of the time.

See LVJ's post

Also when members test RF combos they Dont count self kos so it being top tier doesnt mean to much when the luck involved with using it is so high.

If this were the case Libra CH120RF is garbage

I belive i rember reading about a tournement last year when brad used Libra CH120RF and couldnt get it going and was self ko'ing alot so switched to a deffence or stamina combo cant rember what he said he switched to tho.

This, if anything, shows Libra's weakness

On paper attack combos are very good but actully using them competivly is all about luck tbh. Some days you can get attack combos to work well other days they just self ko constantly.

Luck is not a factor, it's being consistent with your launches

Which is a big point with the libra banning, although bottoms like WF,F,and HF still have yet to find use with the banning but still they are now quite viable because of libra being banned.

HF? F? If LIbra CH120RF (according to your info about RF) then beating Libra with a stamina combo should be no problem, and if stamina is a common type, then attack types will probably be used even more to counter them. More balanced gameplay

Yeah so libra as a stamina wheel is somewhat outclassed,

Yes, quite so, for attack and defense. It is a great defense wheel though.

it still doesnt mean it isnt usefull as a stamina wheel. Which is another big point with it, libra can be utizled in pretty much every style of play.

But apparently it sucks at every style of play? Aside from defense of course.

Would you rather just have beyblade revolving pretty much just about one wheel?

It isn't/won't be

Um if thats how CS is spose to work then with the logic it isnt a good part. If it switchs to attack mode by its self then circles the stadium and doesnt have a very good attack pattern then how is it useful?it wont be making contact with a deffence or stamina beyblade staying in the middle of the stadium.

That's just how it works, lol.

hah i find it funny how you say the more new combos being discovered isnt a result of libras banning, seriously before the banning it seemed to me that members had the whole "whats the point" feeling to finding out and testing new combos, because libra dominated everything.

See new combos weren't used because Libra was used, it was because people wouldn't take time to come up with anything new, therefore Libra's banning is not the direct reason for new combos being found. New combos are being found all the time now that could have destroyed Libra then. (MF Pegasis 145RF)

Aswell as RF being the only viable option for attack combos and its inconsistance makes it in a sense not as viable.

So Libra CH120RF therefore sucks and Libra can only be used as a stamina wheel.
Perfect.

I get what your saying about having libra banned hurts the deffence side of beyblade and i mentioned that in my 1st post, but seriously there new parts coming out for deffence aswell as alot of other parts that have potenital to be used in deffence combos which havent been tested yet.

Defense as a whole is doing quite teribly, yes, and would benefit from Libras reintroduction

IMO bringing libra back atm will only hurt the meta game again, alot of combos will be come less usefull again,

MF Pegasis 145 RF has an 80% win rate vs. Libra

Because with the stadiums we have atm attack types still have quite a large disadvantage compared to deffence and stamina types.

Attack types still destory stamina types, and attack types SHOULD do bad against defense types.

tl;dr Libra is crucial for defense to become a usable type, though its power is not overwhelming, and can only contribute to the metagames development.

you dont seem to understand, the biggest factor with attacks is it has alot of luck. No its about having a consistant launch you could launch an RF combo exactly the same 20times and still have a decent amount of self ko's.

Also with what LVJ post see my response for that.Also people who want to use attack types are they expected to fork out 100's of dollars on storm pegs to replace RFs and the spend hours wearing them to the point where they can be used correctly? Doesnt seem logical to me.

Your also twisting words, i never said Libra CH120RF is garbage, im making the point that when people test combos using RF they dont count self ko's if self ko's were counted in every test for RF combos they would all have horrible win rates. But what does that show counting self ko's? Nothing except you were having abit of bad luck while testing.

Also how does my example of brad using Libra CH120RF in a tournment and switching half way through to a deffence or stamina combo show libras weakness? If anything it shows RF's unreliablity.

Also no, you werent on here when the meta game revolved around libra so you probley dont know what the game was like. In tournements the most common combos you would see were libra or virgo based combos. Do you want a game which revolves around 2 styles of play again and neglicting attack?

And you can always use MF Quetzalcoatl CH120CS and use a straight shot, and let the opponent hit it into attack mode.

And i proved that point wrong now your acting as if im arguing about how CS works?wtf was pointing out that your statment was incorrect and told you why.

MF Pegasis 145 RF lol theres alot more then 1 new combo thats come about, and quite afew will be effected with libra being brought back in.

attack types should do bad agaisnt deffence hah yes but they should still be able to win a decent amount agaisnt them. Bringing libra back will again make RF the only viable attack bottom and possible a new CS or a CS thats woren so it will move agressivly.

Also btw ive looked at this from all 3 points of view, yes there is good reasons to bring it back to have another viable deffence wheel and i can understand that for deffence minded players it would be abit frustrating to only have one good deffence wheel at this point in time, and yes restrictions on it will prevent it from dominating again.

but there are more good reasons to keep it the way it is imo, having more parts that are viable to use in attack combos, incourge people to come up with new deffence combos, inforcing restrictions being to time consuming at tournments.

Another thing is, its only a matter off time till TT realses more deffence wheels and the Grand metal wheel looks to have potiental in deffence combos idk if anyone has it yet or has tested it?Also there bound to be another leone coming out which potenitaly could be good for deffence unlike its past metal wheels.

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I still don't think tournament pressure is worth accounting for.
And if everyone is using stamina for the most part anyways, then why should it matter if someone brings out libra?

It's not so much tournament "pressure" (though, I do guess that exists for some Bladers). It's more so the undeniable fact that most Bladers suck with Attack types, and even the Bladers who are good with them are still taking a higher risk than the one who is not.

It's the same with any other defence type against RF though. The only difference would be a 'broken/failed' launch may make it harder against a Libra defence custom - Earth does better than Libra against some attack customs.

double post but, when i joined back last year libra DF145D/SD/B was a top tier stamina combo

If only it was that simple. Libra was top tier for everything though... So you could beat anything with Libra with attack defense and stamina combo...

Earth mold 2 can outspin Libra...

Back it up with tests.

Read through the thread if you want tests...

self ko stuff

If you self KO a lot, change your launch position to the stadium.

Let's write an essay.

I cba... it's too much work, I don't want to write an essay until I get to uni and it'd be inconvenient for everyone to compile the work together. Everyone working on it will have different ideas about different peoples' paragraphs.

I think it'd be too much work, but I'd do it if others want me to.

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Do you want a game which revolves around 2 styles of play again and neglicting attack?

That won't happen though.Currently Attack is dominating due to all the new combos. Defence is very lacking. Added libra back would make it fairer! not more unfair. Also Stamina and defence wouldn't dominate over attack cause as we have been shown Libra's stamina isn't very good for now's standards. Also Attacks combos knock the crud out of stamina combos so they wouldn't dominate. Also write an essay? Like anyone wants to do that. I think we just need tests to prove whether Libra is too good to be brought back into the game or not.

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