[LTD] Vulcan Discussion

Vulcan is a metal wheel that I have always liked and now that there is a limited format I feel like I should test it to see what it can do.
Gear
Attack Testing
For the attack tests I'd like to point out that my RSF is old and used and when I tried newer RSF's after the tests finished Vulcan was getting higher win rates, so I'll probably go back and redo the tests later. I don't think it was to different though to drastically change any of the results though.

Upcoming Tests
Mid Track height Vulcan Attack
Tall Track height Vulcan Attack
Stamina
Defense

I would really appreciate if other members help redo my tests and do some of the "Upcoming Tests"
I'm gonna be testing Vulcan very soon, but I was having a talk with th!nk and we think it wont make the list. It does look like a nice wheel (I know it's be tier once) But I don't think it's that good enough to make tier. Still worth testing, as you never know; It might come in handy! I'll try some Vulcan attack tests.
Could someone do tests of Beat 90 R2F and Samurai Wyvang GB145 R2F with Thunder Dome's Vulcan combo, just to see how it would fare?

I can see Vulcan having potential to be on the list. Tongue_out


(Dec. 29, 2013  3:13 PM)Leone19 Wrote: Could someone do tests of Beat 90 R2F and Samurai Wyvang GB145 R2F with Thunder Dome's Vulcan combo, just to see how it would fare?

I can see Vulcan having potential to be on the list. Tongue_out

From everything I've done Vulcan is pretty meh above like, CH120. Great LTAC wheel but the presence of 230 is not a good thing for it IMO. If you do do 145 heights, GB145 is probably the track to go with as I find H145 gets in the way of metal on metal contact a bit.

I could maybe seeing Vulcan 85/90/Ch120 making the list but that's about it. But even then I mean look at that 85 vs LTDC test. Bleh.

Oh also, clear wheels that don't mess up vulcan: Horuseus, Byxis, and Giraffe. Pretty sure absolutely nothing else keeps out of its way properly.
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
(Dec. 31, 2013  9:17 PM)Galaxy Blade Wrote: Vulcan Horuseus R145RF vs MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Vulcan: 5 wins (0 OS'S 5 KO'S)
Bakushin: 15 wins (13 OS'S, 2 KO'S)
Bakushin win %: 75%

I think Bakushin got those KO'S 'cause it would hit of R145. I also found Vulcan might do better on H145 then R145.

Vulcan generally works best on low tracks. I'd try redoing those tests with, maybe, Vulcan 85/90 RF. Tongue_out
I was doing what Thunder Dome wanted. Mid height attack, haha.
(Jan. 01, 2014  3:11 PM)Galaxy Blade Wrote: I was doing what Thunder Dome wanted. Mid height attack, haha.

Ah, my bad. I didn't see that, haha.
Thanks Galaxy I'll add that to the OP when I get to my laptop. I think I'm gonna try GB145 because th!nk suggested that it would be one of the better parts for mid heights. Maybe even CH120 if I have time.
(Jan. 01, 2014  3:26 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Thanks Galaxy I'll add that to the OP when I get to my laptop. I think I'm gonna try GB145 because th!nk suggested that it would be one of the better parts for mid heights. Maybe even CH120 if I have time.

Keep in mind that by that I just meant that it's probably less terrible for vulcan than other mid height tracks. Vulcan really needs to get under things by a good margin to be able to do real damage to them, and even with sharp banking I can't get it to do too enough at 145 that I would use it over the huge number of good right spin attack wheels in Limited.

CH120 is probably worth looking into in that you'd still have some chance against the less defensive tall track opponents while still being low enough to also hit 145 height defense nice and hard. Going for full on LTAC doesn't seem too productive to me because even on 85, Vulcan doesn't get under MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF (the main LTDC in limited at this point) often enough to pose a serious threat (though you'd definitely want to not be launching RSF at full force, because that both makes bakushin easier to get under and means vulcan doesn't have to hit it as far to KO), though that was just some informal rounds when I first mentioned it (and maybe a couple before that) and just now, so I could be wrong.
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
I decided to do some tests as well:

MF-H Vulcan Horuseus CH120RF vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Vulcan: 5 wins (All KO)
Bakushin: 15 wins (4 KO, 11 OS)
Vulcan win percentage: 25%

MF-H Vulcan Horuseus 90RF vs. MF-H Bakushin Leone 90RSF
Vulcan: 7 wins (All KO)
Bakushin: 13 wins (All OS)
Vulcan win percentage: 35%

I don't think Vulcan is near as good as Gravity or Beat, but I could see use with it mostly on low tracks. Not top tier worthy in my opinion.
Fake tests (Click to View)
WBO Committee: It was recently brought to our attention that all tests by Crescent in this topic are fabricated. We urge you to forget their results and that someone trustworthy conduct the actual tests for the sake of this metagame.
There's been some discussion of putting vulcan on the tier list for LTAC, however personally I find Screw far, far more effective in that setup - as in "wow vulcan is doing like nothing" vs "oh man screw is KOing really consistently" - a lot more contact points, more weight (not to mention on CH120 Screw is more effective vs LTDC, if not by much). That said, Vulcan is very similar to Beat which has also done well despite me not getting anything of worth out of it myself, so I'm open to the idea if there's substantial testing to support it. Basically, for me to be okay with it going up (for whatever that is worth), I'd like to see comparatives vs Screw from you guys (Vs 145-height defense (preferably R145 as it did better in defense against low hits than GB145 in the testing in the R145 thread) and I guess also vs Bakushin 90RSF/RB), and it has to be against RSF or RB (CS with a height disadvantage won't tell you much of anything).


Oh by the way, I just noticed:
(Dec. 29, 2013  2:56 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: A old and Worn RSF-Not as much movement as a newer one

Unless your tip is getting dirty, that's pretty much impossible - RSF's contact surface gets wider with wear, when they get really worn they act a lot like a worn RF (perhaos even more aggressive).
I think you'd benefit from using Vulcan Byxis rather than Vulcan Horuseus, seeing as Byxis exposes Vulcan's contact points.
MF-H Vulcan Byxis 90RF is the combo I believe will work best.
Yeah, I used Byxis back in the day and still use it as my primary Vulcan CW (though I do like where giraffe puts the weight), I played around with the big three (Byxis, Horuseus, Giraffe) and didn't find a big difference though, didn't hear plastic contact with any of them so. Horuseus still exposes the contact points very well, though, at least from everything I've seen/done, so is there a specific reason you think it is worse? I can provide pictures of each if that helps your explanation?
(Feb. 06, 2014  8:53 AM)th!nk Wrote: Yeah, I used Byxis back in the day and still use it as my primary Vulcan CW (though I do like where giraffe puts the weight), I played around with the big three (Byxis, Horuseus, Giraffe) and didn't find a big difference though, didn't hear plastic contact with any of them so. Horuseus still exposes the contact points very well, though, at least from everything I've seen/done, so is there a specific reason you think it is worse? I can provide pictures of each if that helps your explanation?
Yes please, pictures would be helpful, although i'e always found Byxis to do a better job at the end of the day.
Okay, so I noticed a mold difference with Vulcan – HERE's the post I mention it. As per Kai-V's request/taking me up on my offer, I'm working on updating the Vulcan article with a Mold Difference section, and this evening I sat down and did the requisite testing. I also tested two similar wheels – Beat, and Screw - to demonstrate the various performance comparisons I've mentioned, some of which are rather unusual or unexpected (I'll post the relevant sections to the relevant threads later) while I was there.
Oh and hopefully the coloration of RS to Red isn't too janky, I just did an automatic replace because I got lazy, as originally I was going to post this elsewhere.


Testing!

Setup:
MFB Attack Stadium in good condition, cleaned regularly throughout the tests to prevent mid-match detritus buildup on tips.
2x Light Launcher 2 – Oiled and fully functional, roughly the same power as a Beylauncher.
Libra launches first, straight shot, Attack combos sliding shot.
Part Choice: (Click to View)
Order of tests (Click to View)

Vulcan Mold Comparisons: Side-On

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 1) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra 90RS
Detailed results (Click to View)
Mold 1 Vulcan: 17/30 = 56.67% (All KO)
Libra: 13/30 = 43.33% (10KO, 3OS)

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 2) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra 90RS
Detailed results (Click to View)
Mold 2 Vulcan: 16/30 = 53.33% (All KO)
Libra: 14/30 = 46.67% (5KO, 9OS)


Analysis:
Mold 1 Vulcan did better by a single round, and Mold 2 was strangely lacklustre for most of its initial 10 rounds, and the first few rounds of the final 10, so we can assume that their performance for side-on Smash is roughly equal. However, there is an extremely significant difference – how they lose. Let's take a look at the percentage of Libra's wins that were by KO against each mold.

Libra Victory Stats:
Vs Mold 1 Vulcan: 10KO, 3OS = 76.92% by KO
Vs Mold 2 Vulcan: 5KO, 9OS = 35.71% by KO

Basically, Mold 1 is losing primarily by KO, while Mold 2 loses primarily by OS. From my observations, this is as expected – Mold 1 has a lot of trouble with its recoil, while Mold 2 has a harder time knocking Libra out.
This is backed up by wear patterns – the tail end of the walls on my Mold 2 Vulcan, and most noticeably the bottom corner of them, which is noticeably chipped inward, show wear. However, from all the time I've used my original Vulcan (a lot more than I've used my mold 2's), the wear in this area is quite limited. Basically – in Mold 2, the additional metal is making contact instead of the more effective 'wing' contact points, and this is likely why despite increased weight and lower recoil, the second mold fails to outperform the original – it's not quite as aggressive side-on.

Beat is included for Reference, and I'll discuss that further in the Beat thread.

Vulcan Mold Comparisons: 90 v R145
Now, on to how they do against taller opponents - I didn't see a big difference yesterday but after seeing the 90 v 90 tests, the results should be predictable – really, the main point of interest for these tests will probably be the Beat results, seeing as its top edges are more aggressive than Vulcan's.
Note – My RF was pretty dodgy on these tests, so they were very much not a fun time. Worked around it though:

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 1) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra R145RS
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Vulcan (Mold 1): 11/20 = 55% (All KO)
Libra: 9/20 = 45% (5KO, 4OS)

MF-H Vulcan (Mold 2) Giraffe 90RF vs MF-H Libra R145RS
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Vulcan (Mold 2): 15/20 = 75% (All KO)
Libra: 5/20 = 25% (4KO, 1OS)

Analysis:
This is much simpler than the first set of tests – between how much the extra weight helps against a heavier Libra combo, and probably most importantly the fact that in this match, Mold 2 gets its weight bonus without having it get in the way, Mold 2 is vastly superior here. So, on the off chance the evidence so far wasn't enough, that pretty much settles that the mold change gets in the way side-on, because otherwise Mold 2's winrate should've been noticeably better based on this as the mold difference doesn't change its topside contact points significantly.

This also gives us the general conclusion that Mold 2 is superior overall - the extra weight makes up for the slight exposure drop side-on, and against taller opponents it is flat out superior.


Other Wheels for Comparison:
tl;dr: Beat did worse than BOTH Vulcans, it's just not consistent with its hits because of the fact most of it is so circular.

tl;dr: Screw is a BEAST.


Oh and a little more on RS not monstering these combos: it surprised me too initially, and I discuss an even more peculiar aspect in the Screw section, but basically the fact Vulcan hits upward helps a lot against RS, and generally speaking from what I did with RSF, Vulcan seems to do better against stationary opponents in general (I know Coach for example sees this with pretty much everything, but this is the first time I've experienced it, personally). Mold 3 Libra is also not particularly difficult to get underneath.
Definitely explains a lot about our CC list back in the day though – Lightning, Gravity and Vulcan were the only things on there really taken seriously, and these are wheels which handle RS better than most – a warping of the format which is a major part of RS's ban.

But yeah, don't take it as RS not being a problem – Vulcan and Screw are pretty unique cases.


Aaaaanyway, off to go finish the Mold Differences section etc. Hopefully all this is clear as I was having trouble phrasing things yesterday.


Herculeo777: Oops totally forgot to do that. FWIW, leaning towards giraffe and byxis now - Giraffe is heavier and I like its exposure more for side-on or just below I guess. Horuseus is a bit thick so it protrudes upwards too much for me.
Wow. That was a lot to absorb, haha. XD

Any who, about Beat, I personally never found it that great on LTAC. Even if you're having problems on 90, I think if you compare it to Vulcan on H145, your results will be a loooot different. Since Beat's walls end quite abruptly, with a straight 45 degree angle jointed to a 90 degree angle (which, together are pretty short in light of Beat's size) rather than a gradual slope, like Vulcan, getting underneath stuff is really difficult, but when the thing hits side-on at a 145 height... Yah, it's kinda nuts LOL.

Thank you so much for all this! This is totally great.

Mm, but the 90 v 90 tests should provide some side-on comparison anyway, tbh. I'll reply more in the Beat thread, but I think I'll actually do GB145 (best 145 track I've found for both beat/vulcan) comparatives after dinner so I'll wait til then.

Do have something more about Vulcan (and to a lesser extent Beat which might actually work better for you so that'd be interesting) coming in my next blog post, when I get around to finishing it, though I'm still pretty surprised it actually worked like it did for that, but yeah.

No probs, necessary data, and was something interesting to look into. Mold changes have occupied a surprising amount of my time since I returned to MFB, so it is kinda a topic of interest anyway.

As for Screw, Dan mentioned he finds it really effective, and I think I get that a bit more now. That said, I still don't find it doing anything much that Pegasis CH120 doesn't do effectively anyway, and as I mentioned, it seemed pretty ineffective against Earth LTDC, so given how full the attack section of the CC list will be (that is one section at least that we have a decent amount of data on, but I feel there's still a long way to go before we can resume discussion on the topic of publishing a CC list with regards to almost everything else), though Screw probably does fulfill the definition of "competitive", I guess.