[LTD] Duo (Metal Fury) Discussion

Considering it reliably outspins Earth there's no way Duo won't get a spot. I know it's a lot to ask, but when you're done the Phantom vs Scythe tests, could you perhaps redo Duo vs Scythe on AD145 using your two cancers, for direct comparison? Would be very useful as I am guessing Scythe v Phantom will be a KO fest.

Speaking of which, I am surprised Phantom didn't send Duo flying at all, given Zancrow's Burn tests.
I have a buch of testing tomorrow. I do not know why my Phantom/Duo would not KO? I thought it would, but it never. I do see Phantom and Scythe doing that. I will redo the Duo AD145 as I found my Cancer and my W145 if you want me to use W145.......
Mirror matches are much more insightful than the inevitability of W145 being better than AD145. A comparison of W145 and AD145 in limited (performance against different heights etc) could be useful to have, but really belongs in a W145 thread. Thanks very much.

I gotta get me a Hasbro Duo! Tongue_out These results are amazing. Thanks for these tests Zancrow. Stamina testing for that long can get reeeeaaaally annoying. XD
Great to see a use for this thing, it's so light though that any attack type will ko it immediately
In the MD limited tournament yesterday, it was KOed by rock, enough said.
(Dec. 16, 2013  9:06 PM)Time Wrote: In the MD limited tournament yesterday, it was KOed by rock, enough said.

Yes, Time, clearly nothing about it being one of the best stamina wheels in the format is of ANY relevance or worth ANY discussion whatsoever. Clearly, your extremely insightful comment "it was KOed by rock at a tournament i went to" is enough said for anyone about this wheel, and no one should bother looking any further into the wheel or ways to utilize its excellent stamina.

Sorry everyone else, Time said EVERYTHING of relevance in his deeply insightful thirteen word post, thread over, time for us all to go home.

Draciel516: Which is different to every other stamina wheel in the format how exactly lol? Even Libra LTDC don't take hits from serious attackers particularly well, and that's about as defensive as regular stamina gets.

I get that it is has to be wary as even the more aggressive defense types in the format have a shot at KOing it, but that doesn't mean that it's useless nor that this cannot be addressed through customization if we actually, you know, experiment before writing it off as impractical. Burn doesn't exactly take hits well either and we all managed to use that back in the day.
(Dec. 16, 2013  9:06 PM)Time Wrote: In the MD limited tournament yesterday, it was KOed by rock, enough said.

yesterday I beat an attack combo with mf-H duo cancer 230 mb all I needed to do was weak launch
I think it is going to take some people time to adapt to the new format. While it is still Beyblade, and it is still Attack, Defense,and Stamina types, one thing people need to realize is that one major change in this format is the lightweight's compared to 4D, Synchromes, and wheels such as Basalt, especially with the, for lack of a better word, introduction of Metal Fury wheels as competitive Metal Wheels. Now, I am not bashing Rock by any means, as I think no one should, but a huge factor as to why Rock was able to KO Metal Fury Duo is the lightweight, plus it would help to know the combos the Rock and Duo were used in.

Pretty much, everyone needs to kind of take a moment and realize the weight differences between Standard Format and Limited Format. Over the last year or so, people have gotten used to heavier customs, which is exactly why this format was created. After 4D was released, it became clear that many of the older HWS Wheels were beginning to become outclassed, and it was pretty much finalized with the release of Synchromes.

Again, just give it some time to adjust to the differences, because honestly, I believe this format is going to be much more enjoyable as it has so many more possibilities.
(Dec. 16, 2013  2:12 AM)*Ginga* Wrote: My MF-M Duo Cygnus W145EWD got Koed by a Rock F230TB combo. What the hell.

Something about a really lightweight stamina combo not built to take hits at all against a heavy, vaguely aggressive wheel on a kinda wobbler from the looks of things makes the result a lot less surprising to me.

Anyway, a list of things proposed so far for compensating for Duo's poor defense that I've noted down:

1. LTSC: Low Height+Low Centre of Gravity make LTSC the "safest" standard stamina customs in terms of staying in the ring. Duo's size and overhang (and kinda sloped top) means 85 is probably going to be a bit too low, but we'll see.
2. MF-H + 230MB: Extra weight without sacrificing much stamina. Whether it'll be enough of an improvement (and of course whether it's too much of a sacrifice, given Duo's performance on tall tracks seems a little sketchy) is the question. I'd also suggest we could look into TH170 here, as its multiple heights could be useful, perhaps?
3. GB145: Kinda a long shot, as it is likely a larger sacrifice than 230MB, but it is at a better height for Duo.

I'd also be curious to know whether SA165 is heavy enough to help, even though it isn't legal in Limited, if anyone has time. SA165 doesn't take hits from 145 heights too amazingly so that GB145 would probably be the track of choice for the opposing defender, with a kinda aggro CS or RSF, Libra or failing that, Bakushin as the wheel of choice (failing those uh, virgo? Maybe samurai reviser (crystal up)? or Sol or even Nightmare).

EDIT: I bit the bullet and bought one of these, though it won't arrive til like the second week of January or thereabouts. Hopefully I made the right decision choosing it over Scythe, haha.
Wasn't really in the mood to do any testing yesterday, so I did these this morning.

MF-L Duo Gasher 90WD vs. MF-L Earth Gasher W145WD

Duo: 2 Wins (1 KO, 1 SO)
Earth: 8 Wins (2 KO, 6 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 20%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-L Duo Gasher 100WD vs. MF-L Earth Gasher 100WD

Duo: 3 Wins (0 KO, 3 SO)
Earth: 7 Wins (1 KO, 6 SO)
1 Draw
Duo Win Rate: 30%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-H Duo Aquario 230MB vs. MF-L Earth Gasher 230D

Duo: 8 Wins (0 KO, 8 SO)
Earth: 2 Wins (0 KO, 2 SO)
1 Draw
Duo Win Rate: 80%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-H Duo Aquario 230MB vs. MF-L Burn Gasher 230D

Duo: 1 Win (1 KO, 0 SO)
Burn: 9 Wins (0 KO, 9 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 10%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-H Duo Gasher GB145WD vs. MF-L Earth Gasher W145WD

Duo: 5 Wins (0 KO, 5 SO)
Earth: 5 Wins (1 KO, 4 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 50%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-L Duo Gasher SA165WD vs. MF-L Earth Gasher W145WD

Duo: 10 Wins (0 KO, 10 SO)
Earth: 0 Wins (0 KO, 0 SO)
1 Draw
Duo Win Rate: 100%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-L Duo Gasher SA165WD vs. MF-L Burn Gasher W145WD

Duo: 10 Wins (0 KO, 10 SO)
Burn: 0 Wins (0 KO, 0 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 100%
Round-by-round Results:
Hmmm, wow, kinda surprised at the 100WD results, I figured that it would have gotten positive results.

The SA165 tests are not too surprising.
I've really disliked it on LTSC so far, it scrapes very easily. It's practically unplayable at 85, so I did the test using 90. I don't have a second 90 to test it against, though, so I had to go with 100.
... ???

What happened with those 100 tests, LOL!

Such a dramatic drop in performance... was it scraping at all at 90/100, or just on 85?

From seeing these numbers, I'm gonna have to grab me one of these suckers. Out-spinning Burn is quite impressive, I must say.

As for its low Defense being such a problem, first off, I can't wrap my head around the fact that this thing has terrible recoil. I mean, granted, it's one of the lighter wheels I've seen (I have informally tested one briefly before), but it's a perfect circle! I know the numbers don't lie, but dang, I kind of feel like I need to see it in action before I can believe it's that prone to KO.

Aside from my unsupported, randomly speculated, and completely subjective opinion, does it actually matter that much? Supposing it does have recoil along the lines of Burn, if it truly is so superior in terms of pure Stamina, then being easier to KO than your average Stamina MW isn't enough to toss it. Not with such a high level of pure endurance

Granted, if we were in a situation with something like Burn vs. Basalt, where the latter basically performs on level with the former in terms of Stamina (relatively... don't get super detailed with me here XD), but with an advantage of much lower recoil, it would be different. But what we have here with Earth/Burn vs. Duo is something like Basalt vs. Phantom, where, though the latter has higher recoil than the former, its Stamina is vastly superior. As long as it isn't being KOed by other Stamina types, IMO it isn't much of a problem at all.
Duo's problems are a result of its size and light weight - severe escolpiosis. It is very lightweight - about that of Killer, assuming the figure we have is correct - and that light weight is spread over one of the larger wheels in the format, which makes it very easy to push around. Also keep in mind that not every hit is going to hit the round sides straight on, and those indentations, while not all that large, are being worsened by duo's light weight and size (though they don't seem to hurt its stamina too much).

I was holding out hope that its stamina would be good enough to use one of those setups despite their stamina cost, and those results really are not promising. Even with the stamina numbers it puts up, the risk associated with using it - that against even burn stamina you could lose by KO very easily - is pretty discouraging. That's always been one of my major issues with using stamina types (especially at tournaments where those KOs happen more often because there are two bladers launching simultaneously), and with Scythe turning out to be one of the format's heavier wheels, I'm trying to swap the duo ice titan in the order I made yesterday for a scythe kronos (same price, hasn't shipped yet, so here's hoping)EDIT: raegan-co made the swap made with no fuss, very pleasant Smile as I see more potential in the latter at this point, especially once aggressive launches etc come into play. I also don't think Duo's light weight suit how I use stamina types so there's that too.

While I'm here though, seeing as Duo is apparently best at 145, I was reading up on some of the parts I don't have today, and BWD suffers much the same fate - great on W145 but terrible on everything else, so uh Duo W145BWD sounds like it was meant to be, for all the flaws it'll have, maybe it'll be the best stamina setup in the format (though then again, it'd probably still have to run EWD because of spin stealers, and I don't recall seeing how EWD and BWD stack up anyway). Might be worth trying out to see how it compares I guess, work out what duo's best combo is, unless there are more ideas on how to keep it in the stadium without sacrificing its stamina in the process.
@TheBlackDragon: It scrapes easily even at 100, sadly. There were many times where it looked like Duo had a clear advantage in how much power it had left in it, then it would scrape the floor of the stadium aaaand yeah, sleep out. The 3 SOs it got on Earth were when Duo managed to stay pretty much perfectly upright and not scrape. The KO Earth got wasn't even your normal KO, it actually occurred when they collided and Duo bounced back enough to scrape itself out of the Stadium.

@th!nk: The Escolpio comparison is pretty spot on, haha. Great shape, awful weight. It was sad to see Duo 230MB not be able to sleep out Burn 230D. As you talked about in one of your earlier posts, it would actually be out-spinning Burn, but then it lost its balanced and scraped the floor of the stadium to lose. It was cool to see how well Duo did on SA165, but dat ban doe! I have BWD so I can test Duo W145BWD. IIRC BWD did well on SA165 a while back in the Standard meta, but I have no idea about it now.
IIRC the original duo has the same scraping trouble, and I gave up trying LTSC on it as a result, because I think even on 105 it scraped and then the next thing up is CH120, which was kinda eh (and which wouldn't be low enough to help Duo take hits), though my memory is really foggy I definitely gave up on Duo LTSC back then - too wide for its overhang to not scrape on any track that is actually low enough to do anything really worthwhile.

BWD didn't get that much formal testing from what I've seen, the testing thread found W145 to be best, but SA165BWD was more popular in actual usage though that might've been in Zero G or as a substitute for EWD or whatever.

Sadly, I think SA165 is probably too strong for an unban - I was playing around today and MF Libra SA165RF (Zero G Attack Mode) is basically to Limited what MF Libra CH120RF was to regular MFB back in the day from what I saw, and Libra has a more important role to play than SA165 would in terms of balancing things, in the long run.
It would be nice if Duo is still viable compared to other Metal Wheels on the higher tracks. Granted Scythe looked to perform better on 230, I believe, but I believe it was only one set of tests.

I am curious about the results Duo would have when paired with W145 BWD. Would be very nice if it were to be a successful Stamina Custom.

Just tossing ideas around, but what kind of effect would A230 or F230 have with Duo? Since it seems to be most successful with tracks 145 and up, I was just curious about the possibility of those two tracks. Note-I have neither of them, simply a suggestion. A230 is nearly 1.5 grams heavier than 230 according to the wiki, so I was not sure if the little bit of weight could possibly help Duo keep from getting KO'd by Stamina types at the very least, such as Burn. As far as F230, I really have no idea what it specifically works best with as I have seen it used in all sorts of customs, but I figured I would throw it out there.

At this point, I am mainly more interested about the possibility of using A230 with it, since getting KO'd by other Stamina types is just a no no. If anyone can test out A230 with possibly D, MB, and BWD as the bottoms, I would appreciate it as I am now curious. But, if someone knows for a fact it will not perform well, then do not bother, again, was just a thought that popped into my head.
Just a few W145BWD tests.

MF-L Duo Gasher W145BWD vs. MF-L Earth Gasher AD145WD

Duo: 9 Wins (0 KO, 9 SO)
Earth: 1 Wins (1 KO, 0 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 90%
Round-by-round Results:

MF-L Duo Gasher W145BWD vs. MF-L Burn Gasher AD145WD

Duo: 8 Wins (2 KO, 6 SO)
Burn: 2 Wins (2 KO, 0 SO)
0 Draws
Duo Win Rate: 80%
Round-by-round Results:

EDIT: Also added these tests and all of Galaxy Blade's tests to the OP!
So I tried Duo Cancer 230TB like TheBlackDragon's combo bit of course with the Hasbro Duo and unfortuantely it didn't performa near as well.

Solo spin times:


It had terrible solo spin times unfortuantely :\.

Here is a set of tests:

Duo Cancer 230TB vs. Scythe Aquario 230D

DC: 2 wins (All OS)
SA: 18 wins (All OS)
Duo Cancer win percentage: 10%
Thanks for the test! I'm not really surprised by the results, really. Duo hasn't even done well for me against [i]Burn[/b] in a 230 mirror, so to see it lose against Scythe is expected at to me at this point, haha. I wish a had a TB to at least compare these results too :\
I'll add your test to the OP.
So here are some of my tests
Earth Cygnus W145WD vs Duo Cancer W145WD
Alternating launches. Swap Clear Wheels every 10 rounds.
Duo wins: 9/20(all OS)
Earth wins: 11/20(all OS)
Duo Win Percentage: 45%

Duo Cancer 230D vs Earth Cygnus 230D
Alternating launches. Swap Clear Wheels every 10 rounds.
Duo wins: 17/20(all OS)
Earth wins: 3/20(all OS)
Duo Win Percentage: 85%
Oh, right, I didn't notice it before, but you're supposed to swap the part you're testing (or more properly, every other part) after ten rounds, not the Clear Wheel. That could explain your results not fitting those of the thread so far?
Oh, okay, Ill redo tests tomorrow.
All right, so now I will post some other mirror matches, and I will also post these in the Competitive List Discussion and the Duo Discussion thread.

Duo Cancer W145WD vs Burn Cancer W145WD
Alternating launches. Swap parts each 10 rounds.
Duo wins: 12/20(4 KO, 8 OS)
Burn wins: 8/20(6 KO, 2 OS)
Duo Win Percentage: 60%

Duo Cancer W145WD vs Earth Cancer W145WD
Alternating launches. Swap parts each 10 rounds.
Duo wins:17/20(3 KO, 14 OS)
Earth wins:3/20 (1 OS, 2 KO)
Duo Win Percentage:85%

On W145 Duo did pretty good, but nothing to go rushing home about. Will post 230 tests and 85 tests soon.