Judgment Layer - Too powerful?

I play a lot of Beyblade despite my relative inactivity, and the one and only piece that feels genuinely unfair is Judgment. To have a layer in the meta that has no actual counters is going to stagnate the meta game of Beyblade. Archer Hercules, Poison Diabolos, Orb Egis, Perfect Phoenix, Lord Spriggan, Cho Z Spriggan, Wizard Fafnir, and even Zwei Longinus can't compete against the layer.

Don't get me wrong, Judgment doesn't win every game, but that's because it's prone to self KO. No other piece stands against it as a viable competitor. Zwei Longinus definitely feels like it's the closest thing to a decent match-up, but it is still prone to bursting and losing to burst priority even when it gets the KO. Judgment on the other hand will not burst from impacts against Zwei, given it has a half decent combination going for it.

Judgment, on top of feeling as if it is the most difficult layer to compete against, also seems to have a bizarre amount of versatility. It works flawlessly as an attack layer or a stamina layer. If it holds the center against other stamina types it will almost definitely repel them to a KO, or deliver such repeated impacts which fail to KO that it will burst them. No other piece gives a person this level of control.

Judgment is already running around constantly at tournament play, especially once you get to the top 8. It should be obvious that it's not just good, but genuinely the best in the game. I have real concerns about Beyblade becoming nothing but Judgment vs Judgment matches, because why throw a match away if you're in it to win? I plan to start playing Judgment because after a sizable amount of testing, I'm not really left with a choice. It's the only layer in the game that does all the work for you and has no counter play. Spin and Win, regardless of what your opponent has.

I hold the belief that for the good of the game, Judgment should be banned. People were concerned about Lord and Bearing being too much to handle, but Judgment disposes of both of those parts with ease.
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:09 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I play a lot of Beyblade despite my relative inactivity, and the one and only piece that feels genuinely unfair is Judgment. To have a layer in the meta that has no actual counters is going to stagnate the meta game of Beyblade. Archer Hercules, Poison Diabolos, Orb Egis, Perfect Phoenix, Lord Spriggan, Cho Z Spriggan, Wizard Fafnir,  and even Zwei Longinus can't compete against the layer.

Don't get me wrong, Judgment doesn't win every game, but that's because it's prone to self KO. No other piece stands against it as a viable competitor. Zwei Longinus definitely feels like it's the closest thing to a decent match-up, but it is still prone to bursting and losing to burst priority even when it gets the KO. Judgment on the other hand will not burst from impacts against Zwei, given it has a half decent combination going for it.

Judgment, on top of feeling as if it is the most difficult layer to compete against, also seems to have a bizarre amount of versatility. It works flawlessly as an attack layer or a stamina layer. If it holds the center against other stamina types it will almost definitely repel them to a KO, or deliver such repeated impacts which fail to KO that it will burst them. No other piece gives a person this level of control.

Judgment is already running around constantly at tournament play, especially once you get to the top 8. It should be obvious that it's not just good, but genuinely the best in the game. I have real concerns about Beyblade becoming nothing but Judgment vs Judgment matches, because why throw a match away if you're in it to win? I plan to start playing Judgment because after a sizable amount of testing, I'm not really left with a choice. It's the only layer in the game that does all the work for you and has no counter play. Spin and Win, regardless of what your opponent has.

I hold the belief that for the good of the game, Judgment should be banned. People were concerned about Lord and Bearing being too much to handle, but Judgment disposes of both of those parts with ease.
Keep' and keep can resist  ko's like living hell ik, xtend+ is good on it just use bearing in left spin, use lord valkyrie 00 proof xtend+ defense mode to barrage ko combos of judgement hell orbit metal can work on it the point is it's not to op
The idea that Judgement can reliably beat Zwei, Lord, and Perfect Phoenix is an incorrect assertion.
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:35 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: The idea that Judgement can reliably beat Zwei, Lord, and Perfect Phoenix is an incorrect assertion.

true dat
About 50 percent win rate does not count as reliable.
I don't have access to Keep as of yet so I couldn't test it, but Lord Valyrie/Spriggan on Xtend+ is easily blown out of the water by Judgment Diabolos/Valkyrie. I gave up on that match up after losing 5 in a row with KOs. Bearing in left spin, on Cho Z Spriggan, bursts against Judgment. Judgment is the only layer I've ever witnessed that can burst an opposite spin bearing combo. Royal Cho Z Spriggan and the regular Cho Z Spriggan both consistently burst. Cho Z Spriggan won 1 game total among 7 against Judgment and it felt as if I got lucky, not as if I had something that could stop it.
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:38 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I don't have access to Keep as of yet so I couldn't test it, but Lord Valyrie/Spriggan on Xtend+ is easily blown out of the water by Judgment Diabolos/Valkyrie. I gave up on that match up after losing 5 in a row with KOs. Bearing in left spin, on Cho Z Spriggan, bursts against Judgment. Judgment is the only layer I've ever witnessed that can burst an opposite spin bearing combo. Royal Cho Z Spriggan and the regular Cho Z Spriggan both consistently burst. Cho Z Spriggan won 1 game total among 7 against Judgment and it felt as if I got lucky, not as if I had something that could stop it.

What was the Judgment combo you used in those matchups?
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:38 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I don't have access to Keep as of yet so I couldn't test it, but Lord Valyrie/Spriggan on Xtend+ is easily blown out of the water by Judgment Diabolos/Valkyrie. I gave up on that match up after losing 5 in a row with KOs. Bearing in left spin, on Cho Z Spriggan, bursts against Judgment. Judgment is the only layer I've ever witnessed that can burst an opposite spin bearing combo. Royal Cho Z Spriggan and the regular Cho Z Spriggan both consistently burst. Cho Z Spriggan won 1 game total among 7 against Judgment and it felt as if I got lucky, not as if I had something that could stop it.

Really mine ko's judgement ez with a 50 50 chance as for bearing balkesh was what I meant
The driver on Judgment was being switched repeatedly. Zeta', Xtend+, Destroy', Xtreme', and Eternal were all tested on the Judgment layer.

Edit - Blitz, Sting, and Zenith were the forge discs used, also rotated around. Diabolos was the primary chip used.
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:43 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: The driver on Judgment was being switched repeatedly. Zeta', Xtend+, Destroy', Xtreme', and Eternal were all tested on the Judgment layer.

weird my lord in defense xtend+ can 50% 50% anything on judgement
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:38 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I don't have access to Keep as of yet so I couldn't test it, but Lord Valyrie/Spriggan on Xtend+ is easily blown out of the water by Judgment Diabolos/Valkyrie. I gave up on that match up after losing 5 in a row with KOs. Bearing in left spin, on Cho Z Spriggan, bursts against Judgment. Judgment is the only layer I've ever witnessed that can burst an opposite spin bearing combo. Royal Cho Z Spriggan and the regular Cho Z Spriggan both consistently burst. Cho Z Spriggan won 1 game total among 7 against Judgment and it felt as if I got lucky, not as if I had something that could stop it.
If your Burst resistor and Burst stopper layers are bursting in your tests, you are doing something wrong. Either you aren't using the right discs, aren't launching hard enough to activate stoppers, or are launching Judgement long after the other bey is launched. Your tests are flawed.
It's a test done with two people; 3, 2, 1 go shoot, on shoot. We always launch at 3 according to the beylogger, and always declare a light launch prior to know what we're testing. The day of testing was not flawed.
(Sep. 30, 2019  5:51 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: It's a test done with two people; 3, 2, 1 go shoot, on shoot. We always launch at 3 according to the beylogger, and always declare a light launch prior to know what we're testing. The day of testing was not flawed.
how used is your judgement
I'd say it's about 25% worn out total. It doesn't have any disfiguring blemishes in the rubber although it is showing wear.
(Sep. 30, 2019  6:13 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: I'd say it's about 25% worn out total. It doesn't have any disfiguring chips in the rubber although it is showing wear.

what is the angle of the rubber contact point 45 ish degrees ???? cuz if it is that is the optimal ko form of judgement a new one is curve a worn one starts to angle into a corner which helps ko
I couldn't answer that right now because I don't own the Judgment layer. I won't have that answer until the weekend at the earliest, when I see my friend and can examine his piece.
Cool. You are still doing something wrong. Maybe you aren't using the right discs on Judgement (painted gold/purple/black 0, or Blitz), and aren't launching hard enough to activate stoppers on ChoZ-S. Your tests are flawed.
(Sep. 30, 2019  6:36 PM)DeceasedCrab Wrote: Cool. You are still doing something wrong. Maybe you aren't using the right discs on Judgement (painted gold/purple/black 0, or Blitz), and aren't launching hard enough to activate stoppers on ChoZ-S. Your tests are flawed.

stop attacking him
If you read above, the testing on Judgment was primarily on Blitz, Sting, or Zenith. Blitz was used for a majority of the testing as it just seemed to be the best. Judgment only burst once during the entire night, where it struck Perfect Phoenix and the two of them detonated immediately.

If you watch Beyblade videos, specifically the Japanese youtuber Coffee, you'll see Cho Z Spriggan burst a fair amount with Bearing on it. Judgment makes easy work of it.

The tests aren't flawed.
(Sep. 30, 2019  6:39 PM)Mr. Palazzo Wrote: If you read above, the testing on Judgment was primarily on Blitz, Sting, or Zenith. Blitz was used for a majority of the testing as it just seemed to be the best. Judgment only burst once during the entire night, where it struck Perfect Phoenix and the two of them detonated immediately.

If you watch Beyblade videos, specifically the Japanese youtuber Coffee, you'll see Cho Z Spriggan burst a fair amount with Bearing on it. Judgment makes easy work of it.

The tests aren't flawed.

Then record your own tests. Or request someone else to do formal testing.
Fine. Let's ignore the tests that were done for the moment.

If you take Judgement away, then one of the few layers that stands any chance against Lord is gone, to the point where Lord may need a similar ban. Worse, people start rocking Lord in Right Spin as Judgement Lite.

At least Phoenix had a few natural predators. Some stamina types, opposite spin LAD fights, and ChoA/cR on KO tips. Take away Judgement, and Lord goes next.
The last line there is exactly the point. Phoenix has natural predators. Judgment does not. Judgment's losses feel random because it KO's itself with recoil, not because the opponent could actually prepare against it. Maybe Keep works well, the one driver I haven't had any testing with yet, but I'll find that out eventually though.

Perhaps Lord does need a ban as well, but I'm not as concerned about that currently. For the time being Lord doesn't feel like it breaks the game, it just feels like a real good layer. The internal rubber burst stoppers may need addressing overall.
This thread is fruitless in its current state. Why don't you all compile some data from recorded tournament or have multiple people do the same test instead of the majority of you bickering and making accusations.
Just take a glance at the Winning Combination Thread. Since June it has been in almost every winning top 3. It would just be a lot of copy and pasting from there.
You aren't looking at the individual matches, or it's use in First Stage or Deck format. The winning combos can say it was used, but not how much in each stage.

I use it sparingly in deck and rarely in first. But it appears in the winning combos even if it's one use.