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F230CF & F230GCF Trial Ban in Zero-G Format Discussion

Jun. 14, 2015  3:32 PM
 
(Jun. 14, 2015  2:37 PM)RDF3 Wrote: And what was TBD talking about with crash and burn?

That's American for "fail." Tongue_out
Jun. 14, 2015  5:01 PM
 
@TBD: Bring some cans of soda, preferably cold ones, for the heat, and some Chitato's for the starving yo. When Indonesia was active back then our tournaments was always near a supermarket where they sell these stuff. But I don't know why I'm talking about food when I was supposed to be talking about F230 XD.

Dark: How on earth did you guys slam F230's carping butt in BB-10? Attack, or so-called "anti-spin-steal"?
As for tourneys taking longer than expected it's normal, considering under-estimating attendances or unexpected factors.

TheBlackDragon, I failed to catch the idiom the first time. Thanks a lot.
Jun. 14, 2015  7:48 PM
 
(Jun. 14, 2015  5:01 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Dark: How on earth did you guys slam F230's carping butt in BB-10? Attack, or so-called "anti-spin-steal"?

Actually, from what I remember the combinations used to beat it were Phantom 85/90MF (which worked really well; I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since Burn MF does practically the same thing in Limited, but nonetheless I didn't expect it), and Genbull Dragooon SA165 [Normal] WD. Problem in Zero-G is that Phantom MF will scrape to death, and Dragooon F230CF/GCF will Zero-G KO the carp out of Dragooon WD (that or just fling it around until it stops spinning).

In reality, unless your opponent's F230 is worn or defective, there really isn't any "anti-spin-steal" that will be able to OS it in Standard format or Zero-G.


Oh, and I'd also like to point something out here:

Thunder Dome during discussion of the ban Wrote:Personally I feel F230 doesn't need a ban.

(Jun. 14, 2015  3:25 AM)Thunder Dome after the first test run of the ban Wrote: Zero G was quite interesting without F230. Tons and tons of sway it was ridiculous... I personally have always loved Zero G, but now I'm even more excited with all the sway running around making all the matches way cooler. See everyone next event!

This illustrates how well the test run went. Here we have a user who was opposed to the ban beforehand, and left the event with his mind totally changed. You can't deny those results.

All this time we've been throwing around theoretical arguments on this topic, and now that we've finally actually tried the ban in a real tournament, in real life, with real bladers, it was a smashing success. This issue is no longer theoretical - its results have been validated by experiment.

I know we still have 9 tournaments to go before we finalize the ban, but at this point I'm totally confident they'll all turn out well.
Jun. 14, 2015  7:55 PM
 
Ha-ha, one more person changing their opinion, nice job TBD.

As for F230 in BB-10, it might just be my now-illegal RDF, as it kicks the carp out of anything smelling spin steal. Trust me, RDF is one of the goto tips for spin steal.
Jun. 14, 2015  8:09 PM
 
(Jun. 14, 2015  7:55 PM)RDF3 Wrote: Ha-ha, one more person changing their opinion, nice job TBD.

Well, it wasn't me, it was the event. I wasn't so much trying to point out that somebody's mind had been changed as much as I was trying to illustrate how truly effective the ban turned out to be.

Point is, it wasn't just the players who were pushing for the ban who were happy with its results; even those who were initially opposed to the ban were pleased with how it turned out.
Jun. 25, 2015  2:22 AM
 
let me put it this way, if you have a top heavy punching bag that is connected to the ground rather than the ceiling. Wouldn't you be kind of agitated if whenever you punch the bottom half, it started to spin and not take recoil. Or if you were in a car race and one of the drivers could go as fast as they want without using any gas. I vote that it should be banned. Beyblade should be fun, not a contest to see how many people can make the same combo.
Jun. 25, 2015  2:33 AM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  2:22 AM)blader1000x Wrote: let me put it this way, if you have a top heavy punching bag that is connected to the ground rather than the ceiling. Wouldn't you be kind of agitated if whenever you punch the bottom half, it started to spin and not take recoil. Or if you were in a car race and one of the drivers could go as fast as they want without using any gas. I vote that it should be banned. Beyblade should be fun, not a contest to see how many people can make the same combo.

This topic is meant for people who have played in approved tournaments using the Zero-G format before and during the trial ban. Furthermore, there are so many physics notions involved in Beyblades that none of those analogies are accurate, unfortunately.
Jun. 25, 2015  3:46 AM
 
The main problem with the tournament experience is that there are never any that I can get to. If you could give me some advice on how to hold a one, that would be much appreciated.
Jun. 25, 2015  3:59 AM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  3:46 AM)blader1000x Wrote: The main problem with the tournament experience is that there are never any that I can get to. If you could give me some advice on how to hold a one, that would be much appreciated.

Absolutely, we are here for that, amongst other things hah. But first, let us move the discussion to this thread : http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-How-to-m...-The-Guide
Jul. 20, 2015  11:08 PM
 
Ok, so i'very only played zero-g twice and both events were after the f230cf/gcf ban. And I dont have a f230, So I don't really know what it was like before but currently the meta is a lot of fun.

At "breaking the 500" in Raleigh this weekend, I placed first only using genbull dragoon B: D, and wyvang balro sa165gcf. However I lost a couple of matches with dragoon to duo variants. Almost all of my matches ended 3-2 so really those could have gone either way.

There was a lot of sway attack used as well as stamina types. And not a lot of left spin usage other than my own.
Dark used f230gf for a couple matches and proved that it was inferior to f230cf/gcf.

Overall, from what i've heard I think that f230cf/gcf should continue to be banned. Sway attack is just too much fun, and seems to be the point of zero-g in the first place.
Jul. 20, 2015  11:31 PM
 
I forgot to write my opinion of this, I was co-hosting Forget About F230, and i really enjoyed the tournament without F230! People actually used different combos depending on stadiums such as sharp tips in attack and attack in the attack stadium, people went for more stamina picks in the defense stadium and obviously a balance of both in the balance stadium, whereas with F230CF/GCF it was just used in any type of stadium so it made it very unbalanced and nonstrategic to win, so i really think this ban made the meta game a lot better. The tournament felt very balanced and very intense due to the mass use of attack types. HF/S is now a somewhat relevant part due to this ban, as i tested it in the HF/S Discussion thread.
Jul. 21, 2015  12:15 AM
 
I just recently hosted Forget About F230, the name obviously referencing F230CF/GCF's trial ban.

Personally, I enjoyed it much more without F230 in the way. For others, experimenting with other combos may have felt more comfortable. Like, I know we had many interesting combos used that I probably wouldn't have seen in a regular, competitive Zero-G Format tournament with F230CF/GCF. There was E230HF/S variant from JesseObre and 1234beyblade, E230WSF from Kei and F230BWD also from him. I was very, very satisfied.

I also want to bring back this:

LMAO Wrote:You see F230 dominate on the Winning Combinations for Toronto, however it's over used due to the safety of it.

I don't mean to pinpoint LMAO here, but here's an opinion he stated in a part of a post. If something is over-used due to it's safety over other choices, should it really be considered legal?
Jul. 21, 2015  12:21 AM
 
I'm going to have to disagree with your reasoning, Wyvang/Genbull Dragoon BD145RDF is overused in Standard format and is an extremely safe combination to use, does that mean it should be banned? Nope.
Jul. 21, 2015  12:43 AM
 
(Jul. 21, 2015  12:21 AM)LMAO Wrote: I'm going to have to disagree with your reasoning, Wyvang/Genbull Dragoon BD145RDF is overused in Standard format and is an extremely safe combination to use, does that mean it should be banned? Nope.

Except it can be beaten by Phantom MF and virtually any competitive Dragooon Stamina custom, including Dragooon F230 combinations. You have to get a little creative to take it down, but it's nowhere near as versatile as Dragoon F230 in Zero-G. The comparison really isn't proportional (actually, we had several matches at Beyblade Colloseum where Dragooon BD145RDF was beaten soundly by the customs I listed above).

If it were as "safe" to use as F230, then I would say yes, it should definitely be banned at that point.

Really glad to hear you guys had success with the ban! Awesome.
Jul. 21, 2015  12:53 AM
 
(Jul. 21, 2015  12:43 AM)TheBlackDragon Wrote:
(Jul. 21, 2015  12:21 AM)LMAO Wrote: I'm going to have to disagree with your reasoning, Wyvang/Genbull Dragoon BD145RDF is overused in Standard format and is an extremely safe combination to use, does that mean it should be banned? Nope.

Except it can be beaten by Phantom MF and virtually any competitive Dragooon Stamina custom, including Dragooon F230 combinations. You have to get a little creative to take it down, but it's nowhere near as versatile as Dragoon F230 in Zero-G. The comparison really isn't proportional (actually, we had several matches at Beyblade Colloseum where Dragooon BD145RDF was beaten soundly by the customs I listed above).

If it were as "safe" to use as F230, then I would say yes, it should definitely be banned at that point.

Really glad to hear you guys had success with the ban! Awesome.

Honestly, with Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF, it has the ability to KO or even OS a Phantom MF combination, as well as KO other Dragooon stamina setups including Dragooon F230. All it takes is a good bank launch with RDF, and you can pretty much KO anything. I've seen it happen tons of times. The launch is everything for that custom. (Note, that some attack and some Duo setups as well as Genbull Genbull BD145RDF, can take this customization down, I kindly disagree with the customs you've listed that can take down Dragooon BD145RDF.

My argument still stands that F230CF/GCF isn't as OP as everyone agrees it is. Yes, I did say that it was my "go-to" combination, but that's because I've had enough practice with it, everyone usually has there own go-to combination as well. It's been talked about time and time again, so I'd rather not bring up old arguments about F230, haha.

Other than me not feeling comfortable without F230, it was a really great tournament due to the fact of so many different customization's that people wouldn't normally have pulled out. It was quite refreshing actually.
Aug. 14, 2015  8:26 AM
 
Since I've been to both a "before" event and an "after" event I thought I should probably post here.

At Crush of the G-Force (July 2013) F230CF was used at least 5 times, probably more. In my block Dark_Mousy used it and I was able to defeat it with Zero-G Attack (Balro Wyvang AD145GF) 3-2 I. TheBlackDragon went 4-0 in his block, but I can't say for sure whether he got there by spamming F230CF. After winning Beyblade Revolution using F230CF, I can assume Stormscorpio1 also used it in his block, but lost to FlashFireblaze. FlashFireblaze advanced from the third block, but according to TBD, he did not own a good F230 so he either defeated SS1 without using F230CF or must have borrowed one as he used one in the finals.

EDIT: Thanks SS1 for clearing this up. I didn't pay attention to any blocks besides my own at the time.

In the finals, it was the only combo I faced. I beat FlashFireblaze's F230CF with Zero-G Attack 3-1, and then lost 0-3 to TBD's using Killerken Genbull B:D (I believe he Zero-G KOed me once and OSed me twice). All three of us were 1-1 in the finals so we went into overtime, and I lost 2-3 to F230CF using the Wyvang custom twice. At the time I didn't recognize how powerful it was and dismissed it as a normal Zero-G Attacker that I just had the misfortune to lose to in an Attack vs. Attack matchup.

Some extra information: This event took place more than half a year before TBD posted his case for banning F230CF/GCF, so it was likely before F230CF became a prominent combo in multiple regions and became a controversial issue. I don't know what his stance on F230 was at that time: whether he knew it was good but didn't yet think it was broken, whether he was aware of its power and spammed it the entire event, or whether he was opposed to it and only used it when he got serious in the finals. Clearly this was before when he was vehemently opposed to it and refused to use it. At a later tournament, TBD also stated that FlashFireblaze quit coming to tournaments because he didn't own a F230. When I asked about the F230 he used against me in the finals TBD replied that he borrowed it from someone.


At Before the Burst (June 2015) the trial ban had been enacted, so F230CF/GCF was prohibited at the tournament. Whereas more than half of my opponents two years ago were F230CF, there was a much greater variety of combos used (although Thunder Dome was my only opponent in 2013 that used a non-F230 top tier combo). I faced two B:D Stamina combos, Wyvang Wyvang E230BSF, two Zero-G Attackers, Duo 230MB, and some experimental Duo/Phantom E230TB combos (side note: despite what people say TB isn't too great for Zero-G Defense). My behaviour was more or less the same, swapping between Stamina and Zero-G Attack (keep in mind I didn't obtain a TT Orange F230 until early 2015). Without F230CF/GCF my losses came from an Attack vs. Attack matchup and Wyvang Wyvang E230BSF.


As I didn't participate in any Zero-G tournaments between February 2014 and May 4th 2015 I didn't experience F230CF/GCF at the height of its popularity, so my observations might not be as valuable as more frequent tournament-goers. F230CF was the only thing I lost to when it was legal, and using Zero-G Attack, went 2-2 against it, 3 out of the 4 matches being 2-3/3-2. However, besides engaging it in a mirror match Zero-G Attack seems to be the only way to (inconsistently) defeat it, seeing as it can beat both Right and Left Spin Defense and Stamina. Zero-G Attack was my "only" option to defeat the combo that beat me at Crush of the G-Force, and even when I predicted correctly I lost. In contrast, at Before the Burst I could have defeated the combos that beat me if my predictions had been better (though I could have feasibly won the Attack vs. Attack matchup with some luck).

In conclusion, I've decided that the F230CF/GCF ban benefits the Zero-G metagame, although it's probably not the best idea to read too deeply into the reports from only two tournaments, especially coming from a user who has never used F230CF/GCF in a Zero-G tournament himself.


Also, Kei, you may want to keep track of the events that have occurred since the ban's inception on May 4th if you haven't been doing this already. There have been 6 as far as I can remember.

30 May 2015 - June BeyBash II (NY)
13 June 2015 - Beyblade Colosseum Aftermath (NC)
21 June 2015 - Saint-Jean Go Shoot (Montreal)
28 June 2015 - Before the Burst (MD)
12 July 2015 - Forget About F230 (Toronto)
18 July 2015 - Busting the 500 (NC)
Aug. 15, 2015  7:22 PM
 
Thanks for the report, Wombat! And for the list; I knew we were somewhere around that six tournament mark but I hadn't put together the list yet. Hopefully Toronto can get one more Zero-G Format event in under this trial ban.
Aug. 16, 2015  12:43 AM
 
Spoiler (Click to View)
Flash Fireblaze did not use F230 nor did I, I used Killerkin Genbull SA165 TB and he used Killerkin Dragoon B:d. I also did not use F230 in my block at all.
As for Revolution I only used Girago Dragoon F230 GCF in the final match.
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