Still, I think it would be nice to give us a much more varied metagame than the somewhat disappointingly narrow one we have now (BASALT. EVERYWHERE.)

The two most resent WBO tournaments (King of Games, hosted by Deikailo and; Summer's Eve Showdown, hosted by Blitz and LeeDraciel) weren't prevalent in Basalt based combos as one would have thought it.

Amazing. I really like this idea because it's like life after death. If the wheel gets outclassed, there's a good chance it'll be viable in the second metagame. Plus I won't feel like my money is wasted when a part gets outclassed. I'm in full support of this. What will the new metagame be called?

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That's not how the Force works.

@th!nk
i really do like what you said and do agree to a extent

i will modify my idea with some of the things you said (and maybe i will post a general idea for the lists)

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Still, I think it would be nice to give us a much more varied metagame than the somewhat disappointingly narrow one we have now (BASALT. EVERYWHERE.)

The two most resent WBO tournaments (King of Games, hosted by Deikailo and; Summer's Eve Showdown, hosted by Blitz and LeeDraciel) weren't prevalent in Basalt based combos as one would have thought it.

Um, who told you such a thing? I could name all the Basalt combos used and there were PLENTY of Basalts, making them, VERY prevalent and annoying.

He assumed that if Basalt was even used that it would have placed, is all.. :V

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He assumed that if Basalt was even used that it would have placed, is all.. :V

That's the thing. It placed. Just in 4th place if you want to count that. The user lost due to 2 self-kos and KO.

Hmm really, I personally didn't encounter many Basalts.

On the topic of a second format, I''m not all too sure yet. In theory it sounds like a decent idea but it shouldn't be classified as "Everything before Hell Kerbecs" because IMO there are obviously parts before Hell Kerbecs was released that are viable in combos. I like it better where, someone came up with the idea of sorting it into outclassed and top tier parts.

And then, what if a part that before was thought outclassed is found to have use? Would we move it into the upper format? Maybe it's not the best examples but it took a while for people to find L Drago had a use as a destabilizer and that Pegasis could be used as an attack wheel.

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What I should have said, is that it's basalt/hell vs the very few beys that beat them. As described in the first post, we're very limited in viable parts now. I'm not exactly sure where the "banning basalt won't help" part came from, but I disagree with banning it myself, anyway. A lot of the newer parts have skewed the metagame (basalt, 230, bd145), and instead of a single format with a huge banlist (creating a "wbo metagame"), dual formats would be a nicer, less smogon-like solution.

Of course, to execute this we'd need to make simplicity a priority, so newer users can understand, and so it's not difficult to run/enforce. This is why I like yamislayers idea of banning new parts by default, until testing proves that they won't skew the metagame (eg fang and beat dominating without basalt to stop them). It's easy to run (new parts are banned till work is done by users to unban, instead of the long and temporarily metagame destabilising process of banning parts after testing), relativey easier to enforce (event organisers don't have to check new beys straight after release), and other factors that I don't have time to list right now (I'm on a bus).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

He assumed that if Basalt was even used that it would have placed, is all.. :V

This.

That's the thing. It placed. Just in 4th place if you want to count that. The user lost due to 2 self-kos and KO.

Dunno why people use Basalt in the East Coast Metagame, as much as they do, if it is blatantly unsuccessful there. What sort of concept was the Basalt if it Self-KO'ed twice?

I really don't think banning all new releases until testing is the way to go. Testing, in my opinion, shows concept versus concept and fails to explore the avenues which make up tournament play.

Then, how do we prevent a sudden destabilisation of our second metagame (non-maximum onwards), when a new part is introduced?
It is the only logical way to do it. Were it only one metagame, I would agree with you, but this is a secondary, limited, metagame. There's no reason to risk a new part destabilising it temporarily, that would make the format laughable, and ignore the point (a stable, more varied metagame).

I understand you are very big on the "Tournament play is different from home play", however, unless we have "Testing Tourneys", home testing is the most practical way to estimate tournament performance of parts.

tl;dr what you suggested misses the point of the second metagame.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I understand what you mean now, I was confused because you say "metagame" when you actually mean "format".

Well, it's a metagame. Metagame and Format are different words for the same thing iirc.
I could be wrong though. Basically, I'm using metagame in the sense Smogon use OU and UU Metagames. They're different formats. Maybe I'm wrong, actually, but it's what I'm used to.
I'll try and keep it in mind though.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Well, it's a metagame. Metagame and Format are different words for the same thing

I hope you aren't serious.

Who will be up for hosting tourneys of those formats? The prolific tournament hosts should have more insight than us on that matter.

Well, yes. I agree with what you say BladeStorm. But, its always fun to see a fight. Whether it be among dogs(referring to OK beys), or among tigers(top tiers).

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[...] This is why I like yamislayers idea of banning new parts by default, until testing proves that they won't skew the metagame (eg fang and beat dominating without basalt to stop them). It's easy to run (new parts are banned till work is done by users to unban, instead of the long and temporarily metagame destabilising process of banning parts after testing), relativey easier to enforce (event organisers don't have to check new beys straight after release), and other factors that I don't have time to list right now (I'm on a bus).

I think this is actually a really pertinent point which I hadn't given much thought prior to this. The Beyblade hobby however, moves at such a pace that constant reviewing of the two metagames and their borderlines would be essential - this takes quite some time unfortunately ...

I also saw "pre-Hell Kerbecs" bandied around earlier too; I don't think this works as a specific divisor, since there are other exceptionally strong parts released before it, such as Vulcan and Libra.

Well, in that case, we might actually divide the format on the basis of tiers! As I said in my previous post, it would be fun to see Poison SerpentSW145__ pit against Killer CapricorneM145Q in one format, while it would be fun to see Max. Meteor against Basalt tank!

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[...] This is why I like yamislayers idea of banning new parts by default, until testing proves that they won't skew the metagame (eg fang and beat dominating without basalt to stop them). It's easy to run (new parts are banned till work is done by users to unban, instead of the long and temporarily metagame destabilising process of banning parts after testing), relativey easier to enforce (event organisers don't have to check new beys straight after release), and other factors that I don't have time to list right now (I'm on a bus).

I think this is actually a really pertinent point which I hadn't given much thought prior to this. The Beyblade hobby however, moves at such a pace that constant reviewing of the two metagames and their borderlines would be essential - this takes quite some time unfortunately ...

I also saw "pre-Hell Kerbecs" bandied around earlier too; I don't think this works as a specific divisor, since there are other exceptionally strong parts released before it, such as Vulcan and Libra.

Of course, Lightning must also be considered for being super-powerful. Lightning, Vulcan, and Libra would probably require some investigation. For them, I'd consider allowing them at first, and if the metagame becomes Lightning/Vulcan vs Libra, then there's a problem. That said, Earth is a better option for stamina than Libra IIRC.
MF-H Libra 85CS/D would need to be examined, but yeah.
I know, this disagrees with my "default to ban", but these parts strength is kinda borderline. I mean, at the least, Libra WAS unbanned (though, who knows what it would have done had basalt not outclassed it so soon), even with RS around.
That said, considering it was banned before, it might be an idea to ban it for this metagame, as it would again preclude earlier attack wheels from use. So, yeah, it may need to stay banned.
Vulcan, I'm less sure about. It has to contend with LLD, Gravity, and Meteo, the first two of which, at least, are arguably more versatile. Of course, we'd need to see how the metagame goes. I don't neccessarily think they'd be unhealthy for the metagame, before libra was released, they still weren't commonly used, as far as I'm aware.

It's complicated, and my attention is rather divided right now, so I'm sorry if this is a little unclear, and hopefully I haven't said anything st00pid.

EDIT: I STRONGLY agree that we should have some insight from prolific tournament hosters here, as BladeStorm said. I'm not sure who counts as that, but alerting them to the presence of this thread may be a good idea, as their input would be of great value when considering the practicality of a dual-format system.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

so i kinda decided to make another makeshift list, based more on what i have read in this thread

Spoiler (Click to View)

tier 1: the age of overpowered parts
stamina and defence: MF-H hell/basalt+230/BD145 variants
attack we have the "maximum meteor" the "lightning tank," fang, and beat for attack (and then all over powered parts that will be released)

tier 2: the rise of left spin attack
defence: MF-H earth/libra bull GB145/R145/230RS/RSF/CS
stamina: earth/burn bull 85/AD145/230WD/SD
attack: lightning ldrago 85-CH120RF/LRF/R2F
meteo ldrago 85-145? RF/LRF/R2F
gravity perseus 85/D125/R145
(and vulcan is just barely dangling on this tier)


tier 3: WB used for defence
defence: MF-H earth GB145/R145WB/CS (because WB is kinda bad, CS is in)
stamina: flame/thermal bull 145/DF145WD/SD/D
attack: saggitario 85RF?
vulcan 85RF
pegasis 85/145RF
screw pisces/horogium 85RF
(and the list for attack goes on for tier 3's attack)

(sorry if this post is kinda useless, but i worked hard on it and stuff)

about libra, from the tests i have seen, if it is put into like a second tier defence combo, it is slightly better/the same as earth

for vulcan, i just cant see it do good in my second tier, because it is bad VS RS (so is all other right spin), as much as it is powerful, it has a big weakness

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Won't we bring C145 back into tier 3 ?

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Signature was too large. Read the rules.

I almost feel as though this new format is promoting compacts rather than heavy attackers...

Easiest way to promote creativity: ban all varients of WD. Even then, that's a terrible move to the game IMO. If you look at stamina bladers, WD is an omnipotent piece for OS (although it isn't as KO resistant).

Look at most combos: you'll find WD is more commonly used than Basalt. Same with BD145. WD is very inexpensive, common, and easy to use.

But it's less polarising for other types than basalt. It restricts the use of parts far less than basalt does.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Won't we bring C145 back into tier 3 ?

yes, and ED145

Deikailo: for tier 2 change WD into SD/D and for tier 3 change SD and D into the S series?

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Won't we bring C145 back into tier 3 ?

yes, and ED145

Deikailo: for tier 2 change WD into SD/D and for tier 3 change SD and D into the S series?

SD and D can't regain balance as easily as WD can, but I've also found that it is harder to throw them off balance. They have their individual drawbacks, but Basalt on SD has a balance problem compared to Basalt 105WD. The wider/heavier the wheel, the more trouble I have getting SD to balance after a hard hit or destabilization.

It's a very slight alterization, but advantageous nonetheless if you want to even out stamina's overall power against other types. I still think we should play without bans, moreso because they will come out with better parts.

Okay. I'm too lazy to read through most of this, but I get the idea and I read a couple of your poinst. I really don't think this would be a good idea until after most of the parts that will be released are released. But, if you guys did do this, the other format you make should just be a metagame where every part on the top tier list is banned. The only difficulty I see this way is the banning of tracks.

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Okay. I'm too lazy to read through most of this, but I get the idea and I read a couple of your poinst. I really don't think this would be a good idea until after most of the parts that will be released are released. But, if you guys did do this, the other format you make should just be a metagame where every part on the top tier list is banned. The only difficulty I see this way is the banning of tracks.

BD145 is like a plastic wheel on a track IMO. Would that fall into that difficulty?