World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

Defense Reformation! (Advanced Discussion)

Jul. 26, 2014  5:53 PM
 
:: Tier List Proposal ::
Defense Reformation!
(Advanced Discussion)


Hey guys! This is the advanced discussion for this topic. I've posted a duplicate thread in Standard Customizations if you want to take a look at that.

This thread takes an in-depth look at the Defense section of the tier list, in an attempt to weed out the weak points and reinforce the set of combinations we have in order to compile a list of competitive Defense types that are actually applicable against today's high-powered Attackers.

To make things simpler, I'll just post the Defense section of the current competitive list here:

Current Defense Section Wrote:
DEFENSE


Duo
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 (RDF/RB)
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) E230 (RDF/RSF/RB/CS)

Revizer/Killerken
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RDF/RB/CS/RSF)
  • MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RSF/CS/RB)

Genbull
  • MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB/RSF/CS)
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RB/RSF)

I think we can all agree that there are Defense types on the list now that simply aren't good enough to be there. I mean come on, MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS? That's a recipe for disaster right there. You're no better off than a Stamina custom against a Wyvang Attacker at that point (or any other competitive Attack type, for that matter - Even a well placed hit from Flash could shred the thing easily).

Yes, I understand the testing environment vs. tournament setting variable, but to be honest there's a certain point where you simply can't apply that anymore. If you're hitting 80% against a given Defense custom with an Attack type in a controlled testing environment, you can't just say "Oh, it's all good. There's no way my opponent will get that same number in a tournament match." Well, yes, this is true to some extent, but the number is so insanely high that even if your opponent's chances are decreased by the variables met in a tournament scenario, he still has more than a good shot at taking you down.

Regardless, whether or not you interpret the numbers in light of tournament variables as severely problematic to the Attack custom itself, the point still stands that if a Defense Beyblade is only hitting 20-30% against a given Attack Beyblade that isn't particularly specialized in beating that particular Defense variant*, it's not a very reliable custom.

*Specialized matchups, like Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F vs. Revizer Killerken E230RSF, don't apply here, as the Attack type is specifically designed to win against this variant of Defense. Every Defense type is gonna have a specific Attacker it has some trouble with, but we're looking at its overall performance against the competitive Attack meta. If Defense type A loses to Attack type B, but wins consistently against Attack types A, C and D, then it's definitely applicable, even if it can't quite hold out against Attack type A.

In a nutshell, if a Defense combo only hits like 25% against an Attack combo, regardless of whether or not the Attack combo will win in a tournament setting (which is very possible), the Defense type probably isn't a very reliable choice. :\

This begs the question: "Which Defense variants are reliable, and which ones aren't?"

Well, since this is a proposal involving changes to the Defense section of the tier list, I'll be giving my opinions on changes, as well as explanations along with the way, so that should answer the above question.


Proposal #1
Remove CS from all Defense customs

The thing just doesn't have the grip to deal with competitive Attack types anymore. The fact that it's still considered competitive after so long is a testament to how good it used to be, but to be perfectly honest, I think it's time for it to kick the bucket. It's been on shaky ground since the release/initial testing of Flash, and things have only gotten worse since then. It'd be a pity to see it go, but having it up there makes me very uneasy.


Proposal #2
Remove all Duo Defense customs


I know, I know - it does really well avoiding KOs from Wyvang!

Well, it don't matter how well you can stay inside the stadium if you can't keep spinning. Duo has such a low overhang and such light weight, that I've found it easy to make it scrape to death on BD145 with any right-spin Synchrom Attacker. Flash also rips it to shreds on the side.

I used to be a proponent of Duo Defense, but that was mostly due to the fact that I own a Duo that has unspeakably kick-butt Defensive qualities for some reason, and my mind was quickly changed after testing with other Duos and watching them get tossed silly around the stadium. It's just too lightweight and flimsy.

To top it all off, now that Wyvang's aggressive mold has been discovered, I've found it much more capable of trashing Duo than the calm mold, with which I did my testing on the subject against my laugh-in-your-face-and-sit-there-like-an-unmoveable-boulder Duo, and Bahamdia Dragooon doesn't seem to have much trouble with it either.

So, it's light, flimsy, liable to scrape on BD145 against anything of sufficient weight, and not all that hard to KO after all. I'd be sad to see it go, as I expect most of you would, but even with a smooth shape, 42 grams vs. Today's 63 gram Synchromes isn't cutting it anymore.

(Just a note - if a specific one of my other proposals is accepted, Duo won't be wiped out entirely, but only if...)


Proposal #3
Remove RSF/RB from BD145 Defense


They. Just. Don't. Work.

Yes, they're rubber, yes, they've done great in the past, but I can hit 75% against Revizer BD145RB with Flash pretty easily nowadays, and with Balro and Wyvang... yeesh. IMO they don't have the goods to work on BD145 anymore. RDF is so, so, so much better in every way, that I honestly wouldn't even consider using either one if I had an RDF with me.

And that's just Revizer vs. Flash. Think of Killerken vs. Wyvang guys (that matchup is literally 100% every time). Stationary BD145 Defense is on such absurdly thin ice from my perspective right now, the idea of listing it with anything besides RDF seems unthinkable (the only reason I'd leave BD145RDF there, rather than wiping out stationary D145 Defense entirely, is because there's isn't much else to deal with Dragooon Attack types, which it does pretty well against). The stuff is just too flimsy. The highest I can hit with a BD145RSF/RB Defense type against a competitive Attack type is like 35%, and that's against weak stuff with a shaky launch.


Proposal #4
Add RF to Killerken/Genbull BD145 Defense (and dependently existing Duo Defense)


BD145 has lost the ever-inconsistent RSF and RB! Its Bottom selection is too limited! What shall we do??

*SWOOSH *

In flies RF, the savior of BD145 Defense types everywhere! RF-based Defense is inexplicably more effective against Attack than stationary BD145 Defense. It just takes hits so, so much better (like, to the point where it can actually win consistently, even in a testing environment). I've posted a thread alongside this one - MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RF, so we have testing to look at.

Revizer is excluded simply because it lacks the necessary Stamina to work well. Killerken and Genbull have no problem out-spinning the current competitive Attack wheels we have, but Revizer has trouble a lot of the time.

Here's where we get into the "If this gets the thumbs up, Duo hangs in there" thing. Duo is really, really, really great on BD145RF. It's fast, manuverable, and has the Stamina to work the setup perfectly. If RF ends up in the Defense section, IMO Duo should go right back up with it.

This does not include E230 Defense types. E230 Defense has too little Stamina to hold up on RF. E230RF would be virtually immoveable, but, again, avoiding KO doesn't really matter if you can't keep spinning while you're doing it.


Proposal #5
Remove RSF from E230 Defense


I made this separate from the removal proposal concerning BD145 Defense, as distinguishing the difference might help keep discussion clear, since I expect a lot more of you to oppose this change than then former.

RSF doesn't have all that much more Defense than CS. It's just kinda weak. E230 is a strong Defensive Track, but aggressive molds of Wyvang, Balro and Dragooon are still considerable threats, especially to a Bottom like RSF. On top of that, using RSF makes it especially easy for opposite-spin Attack types to OS your Defense custom, whereas the two left if each of these proposals is applied (RDF/RB) are much more secure in that respect.

I'm not super supportive of this one, but I'd still like to see it happen. That said, I'd be OK with leaving E230RSF up there if you guys want to (which I expect most of you will), and this is probably the least important change I've listed.


There you have it. To get a clearer picture, I'll compile these changes into an actual list:

TBD's Dream Defense Section Wrote:
DEFENSE


Duo
  • MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF

Revizer/Killerken
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 RDF
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Killerken BD145 RF
  • MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (RDF/RB)

Genbull
  • MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (RDF/RB)
  • MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)

This is what the Defense section of the tier list would look like if the above changes were made. I think it looks pretty great! No more MSF-H Killerken Killerken BD145CS sitting under MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang GB145R2F.

I know some of these changes are pretty drastic, haha. Keep in mind that most of these changes are honestly due to the prevalence of Wyvang, which trashes the carp out of everything I proposed we remove, and is neutralized by everything I proposed we add. I've been aching to propose a sort of Defense reformation for a long while now. Something like this would give us a list of Defense customs that are actually effective/consistent against the high-powered monsters that are modern Synchrom Attack types.

Post your thoughts! Hopefully this'll move us one step closer to a newer, more accurate Defense section in the competitive list.
Jul. 26, 2014  6:20 PM
 
Unfortunately I have not had the time to read your whole post yet, but isn't this basically proposing to redefine proper Defense types into "Anti-Attack" ? I just think there might be an actual difference we should not be trespassing on.

By the way, we could have simply discussed this in the Beyblade Customizations forum, but whatever.
Jul. 26, 2014  8:04 PM
 
Well here's my response to all of these.

1. No. CS is one of the best defensive Tips in the game, especially the passive-aggressive ones. Its shape allows it to catch the Tornado Ridge easily, and then it becomes aggressive, circles back around, and hits the Attack type while it's still recovering from the first hit. Here's a picture if you can't tell what I'm saying with my words:
excuse the bad editing (Click to View)
In my experience, this is extremely useful for taking out Attack types, as the counterattack will kill their momentum. Maybe your CS doesn't do this, but mine does and I personally find it annoying when I test Attack types. So I think CS should stay.

2. I agree that Duo is a little too light to compete with all the 60-70 gram Synchrom Attackers. I think it should go, no matter how "well" it takes hits from Wyvang.

3. I have to personally disagree with RSF, since if you launch it aggressively, it can basically act as a slower RF with more Stamina. RB skips the Tornado Ridge way too easily, because it's a ball. I've tried it a few times and never liked it. I supposed you could launch it aggressively but in my experience RSF does this so much better. So I say keep RSF and kick RB.

4. Is RF Defense not Anti-Attack, and therefore Balance? Unless you can differentiate between the RF Defense and Anti-Attack I think Defense should stay as stationary Defense and RF Defense should stay Balance (Anti-Attack).

5. I've honestly never used E230 Defense. I don't know why; I'm just not a huge fan of it, so I can't really give constructive input here. E230RSF does sound like it would have balance issues though.

Have you considered adding Zirago for Defense? I know it's generally used as a sub for Revizer or Killerken, but how does it do on the generic Defense setup?
Jul. 27, 2014  3:22 PM
 
(Jul. 26, 2014  6:20 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Unfortunately I have not had the time to read your whole post yet, but isn't this basically proposing to redefine proper Defense types into "Anti-Attack" ? I just think there might be an actual difference we should not be trespassing on.

By the way, we could have simply discussed this in the Beyblade Customizations forum, but whatever.

Well, it is a big change to the tier list, so I figured this might be a good spot to post it (feel free to close it if you think it's not appropriate).

Um, I'm not totally sure what you mean. This is simply a proposal to remove some of the weaker Defense customs on the tier list, and add some stronger ones to make sure our Defense vs. Attack sections aren't uneven.