I did some comparisons today. Forgot RDF but I'll have it up tomorrow. Keep in mind that I suck with Attack, and my Wyvang has probably lost its edge by now. But they should at least be proportional, right?

Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RSF
Wyvang: 4 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 16 wins (10 OS, 6 KO)
1 tie redone
Genbull win rate: 80%
I aggressive launched RSF. The only times Wyvang got the KOs was when it hit Genbull in the right place at the right time, so a direct hit right near the exit.

Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145RB
Wyvang: 9 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 11 wins (10 OS, 1 KO)
4 ties redone
Genbull win rate: 55%
These two tended to double-KO a lot. RB, while not as aggressive as RSF, skips the Tornado Ridge more easily, so it's easier for Wyvang to get the right-place-right-time hit.

Zirago Wyvang H145R2F vs. MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145CS
Wyvang: 6 wins (all KO)
Genbull: 14 wins (11 OS, 3 KO)
Genbull win rate: 70%
See picture above.

So while I don't agree about removing CS or RSF, I can see where you're coming from about RF Defense, about how Defense needs to be more mobile now to have some momentum to deal with Attack.

It's better than RB, or y'know, goes against the model. CS needs to stay.

Sure, may not be good for pure defense, where would you put it, stamina? That's hilarious.

And before you try to amaze everyone with grammatical finesse, I'm not saying it's better, just that it should not be removed.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Guys' you have to atleast admit that cs is a useable alternative to rdf and RSf. It isn't the best part, but cs has the ability to possibly out spin these combos and have the rubber traction. I think that rf defense is really good as well, and still use a reviser reviser bd145 rf from time to time. Just don't mess with cs

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I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
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Guys' you have to atleast admit that cs is a useable alternative to rdf and RSf. It isn't the best part,

In some cases, yes. I find CS to be the best choice among RDF, RB, and RSF on E230 defense variants, though there are sometimes where it isn't always the best alternative. For instance, look at TʜᴇBʟᴀᴄᴋDʀᴀɢᴏɴ's tests utilizing MSF-H Reviser Reviser BD145CS: it seemed to be that RDF on that same setup was able to 40% better than the CS against MF-H Flash Orion H145R2F.

On another note, on the topic of doing tests with CS and comparing them to other similar tips, I may try to ask someone if I can borrow their CS next Sunday. I'm sure someone like JesseObre or LMAO wouldn't mind, though.

DrPepsidew: I actually do think it should be removed. In both your tests and mine, CS got completely trashed.

I still don't think the testing is sufficient to prove that CS is "on par" with RDF, since Wombat's testing confirms what I expected to see relative to RSF, and my personal testing puts a worn RDF miles ahead of a prime CS.

Again, in both of our testing, CS still lost, by a lot. If we take the testing we have (even if we average out yours and mine), and orient everything by relative percentage, we get:

CS: average = 59% (rounded up to the nearest 1st decimal)
RSF: average = 67.4% (rounded down to the nearest 1st decimal)
RDF: average = 70.5% (rounded down to the nearest 1st decimal)

So it would seem that, if we take the percentage by which each tip compares to the others, add them all together from you, Wombat and I and average them out, we get RDF>RSF>CS, which is consistent with the old model.

However, the difference isn't that large, which surprises me a lot, because with my results, the gap between CS and RDF is absolutely enormous, but if we add everything together, it's only about... uh, 19.5% better than CS for Defense overall, which is still a decent gap, but not as large as I'd expect.

EDIT: Waaaaaiiiiit a minute. I just realized that your win percentages are actually for Duo, not Flash/Wyvang. That makes things even weirder (don't worry, I changed the above data to compensate).

Hold on, what this?

Wyvang^2 SA165 (Attack) LRF vs. Revizer^2 BD145 RDF
RR always launched first.

Detail Results (Click to View)

1. WW KO
2. WW KO
3. WW KO
4. WW KO
5. WW KO
6. WW KO
7. WW KO
8. WW KO
9. WW KO
10. RR OS
11. RR OS
12. WW KO
13. WW KO
14. WW KO
15. RR KO
16. RR OS
17. RR OS
18. WW KO
19. RR OS
20. WW KO

WW: 14 (0 OS, 14 KO)
RR: 6 (5 OS, 1 KO)
WW Win %: 70.0%

How did MF-H Duo Aquario BD145CS get a win rate nearly 3 times as high as Revizer Revizer BD145RDF against the same Attack combo?

Innovations in attack metas are kinda trashing Duo defense... I'd really hate to see it go... However, for the sake of the tier list, dueces.

If Duo is getting trashed nowadays...

I'm confused.

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Hah... Look what he did...
I used Duo for consistency, get over it.
Also, you said yourself that Wyvang isn't all to great against Duo, no?
CS is a good tip, TBD. You really don't see that, do you?

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Just was it until TT releases mcsdb (metal coat sharp defense ball) then all the parts will be useless. Jk
Anyway, cs has it's uses, and saying it has no place in the meta game, when it still does is absurd. On the other hand though, it is now a more niche piece to defense. The game will continue to use cs and do well with it TBD.
And doc, no need to be overly rude, you are funny. But still rude.

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I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
My avatar was made by my good friend ToxicVisage. Check out his commissions page here

Just was it until TT releases mcsdb (metal coat sharp defense ball) then all the parts will be useless. Jk
Anyway, cs has it's uses, and saying it has no place in the meta game, when it still does is absurd. On the other hand though, it is now a more niche piece to defense. The game will continue to use cs and do well with it TBD.
And doc, no need to be overly rude, you are funny. But still rude.

Well, I wouldn't say that no one else in the topic is being rude.

But yeah, it seems that the general consensus is that CS should stay.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Yeah, not trying to be funny here. Sorry for the salt but saying that CS needs to be removed is just ridiculous.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things

Yeah, not trying to be funny here. Sorry for the salt but saying that CS needs to be removed is just ridiculous.

No I read through the thread, many people were rude, you were just the last to do so. But yeah I think we have enough to get off the topic of removing cs, and focus on other thing referred to in the OP.

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I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
My avatar was made by my good friend ToxicVisage. Check out his commissions page here

No, Pepsi wasn't being rude (at least it didn't sound like it).

DrPepsidew:

I used to be a proponent of Duo Defense, but that was mostly due to the fact that I own a Duo that has unspeakably kick-butt Defensive qualities for some reason, and my mind was quickly changed after testing with other Duos and watching them get tossed silly around the stadium. It's just too lightweight and flimsy.

To top it all off, now that Wyvang's aggressive mold has been discovered, I've found it much more capable of trashing Duo than the calm mold, with which I did my testing on the subject against my laugh-in-your-face-and-sit-there-like-an-unmoveable-boulder Duo, and Bahamdia Dragooon doesn't seem to have much trouble with it either.

So, it's light, flimsy, liable to scrape on BD145 against anything of sufficient weight, and not all that hard to KO after all.

It actually isn't. And even if it is in some cases, I find it very hard to believe that it's 3 times as good (especially as, in your testing, Wyvang did better against Duo than Flash did, so...).

I pointed out an inconsistency because I'm legitimately confused. I don't understand how you could've gotten a win rate that high in one case, and something radically different in another case. It's just kind of awkward (as in difficult to decipher), because the data I just posted above is weighted significantly in CS' favor because your win rates for the defenders were so high.

And I don't understand what you said about using Duo "for consitency."

Just wondering.

I never once said CS wasn't a great tip. It's a top-tier Balance Bottom, guys. I just don't think it should be listed for pure Defense (and to answer your question, if it was proven top-tier worthy, MSF-H Genbull Genbull BD145CS would most likely be listed as Balance; of course we wouldn't add it to the Stamina section. That would be ridiculous, haha).

If your asking if I see that it's a great Defense Bottom, no, I don't. All I see is a sub-par Defensive Bottom (not completely useless, mind you; far from it, but not top-tier worthy IMO) being tossed around the stadium and slung across the room.

I don't see eye-to-eye with you on this, because my results are drastically different, consistent with what I've always experienced, and no less relevant than yours. Remember, I'm not saying CS should be removed from the tier list - I love CS, but not on a pure Defense custom.

And, not to be snappy or anything but this:

CS is a good tip, TBD. You really don't see that, do you?

Is a tad bit offensive. It kind of... I don't know, suggests that I'm blinded by some sort of crazy bias, and in my irrational state, I can't see the obvious truth. I don't believe that CS is as good as you say it is, and I try not to let myself be blinded by bias when I'm discussing this stuff. (I'd like to think) I know this game like the back of my hand, and I know Defense customs just as well as you do. I just don't get the same results for whatever reason.

I apologize if that sounded snappy, haha. It's difficult to judge people's tone over the internet.

Just for the record, this is like the first time I've ever heard of CS being anywhere near superior to any other Defense Bottom. Testing and general knowledge has always suggested otherwise (and yes, I know popular opinion can sometimes be faulty, but my testing and the testing of many players before me, and Beywiki nonetheless, confirm that belief, and I'm hesitant to believe that this is a 3-year-old lie that's just been retold over and over).

If this has been a long-winded misconception, and several other members are able to produce the same results, then I would certainly do a 180 and assume I just have a bad CS or something (which is possible - It's the best one I have, but it is possible that all 4 of mine are bad molds), and that the last few years of knowledge have just been incorrect (which did turn out to be the case with the whole MF-M = high-precession thing, so it isn't impossible).

But personal experience tops most other things, so it's gonna take quite a bit to convince me.

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I pointed out an inconsistency because I'm legitimately confused. I don't understand how you could've gotten a win rate that high in one case, and something radically different in another case. It's just kind of awkward (as in difficult to decipher), because the data I just posted above is weighted significantly in CS' favor because your win rates for the defenders were so high.

I had to use CS for this, because I just could not KO Revizer RDF to save my life (even with a worn RDF that had almost no Defense left to offer) - my launch is really weak today, and my launcher seems to be skipping some. I'm way behind on sleep (I actually only got up an hour ago, haha). I only got like half the power out of Wyvang I can usually get. Oh well.

May or may not have been the cause of inconsistency. Also not everyone can get their hands on 8 Wyvangs, so the ones he used in the tests against Revizer may have been the same ones that wore down on his more recent tests.

DrPepsidew: I think he was being sarcastic when he said Duo was good at stopping Wyvang.

But personal experience tops most other things, so it's gonna take quite a bit to convince me.

Just keep in mind that you two are on the same boat here.

DrPepsidew: I think he was being sarcastic when he said Duo was good at stopping Wyvang.

I may be wrong here, but I've hear TBD say it many of times.

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6 God is watching and I hope you're prepared to face him

I pointed out an inconsistency because I'm legitimately confused. I don't understand how you could've gotten a win rate that high in one case, and something radically different in another case. It's just kind of awkward (as in difficult to decipher), because the data I just posted above is weighted significantly in CS' favor because your win rates for the defenders were so high.

I had to use CS for this, because I just could not KO Revizer RDF to save my life (even with a worn RDF that had almost no Defense left to offer) - my launch is really weak today, and my launcher seems to be skipping some. I'm way behind on sleep (I actually only got up an hour ago, haha). I only got like half the power out of Wyvang I can usually get. Oh well.

May or may not have been the cause of inconsistency. Also not everyone can get their hands on 8 Wyvangs, so the ones he used in the tests against Revizer may have been the same ones that wore down on his more recent tests.

DrPepsidew: I think he was being sarcastic when he said Duo was good at stopping Wyvang.

But personal experience tops most other things, so it's gonna take quite a bit to convince me.

Just keep in mind that you two are on the same boat here.

Oh yah, it definitely could. That's why I was asking, since he didn't mention anything about having trouble launching or anything.

No, I was being serious. That was based both off of something meow! said a while back, and some of my own testing with an abnormally solid Duo. However, looking later testing with another Duo and the results from other members (like the ones DrPepsidew posted in the CS thread), it would seem that it actually isn't any more solid against Wyvang than other wheels.

So I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just wrong.

I know - he obviously gets completely different results than me, so I don't expect he'll be convinced without sufficient evidence any more than he expects I will. Only one of us is right, but we don't know who. So, until we determine for sure whether CS is on par with RDF for Defense or not (and if not, by what margin they're separated), we'll probably just keep throwing arguments and test results back and forth in a futile attempt to convince one another until we're both burnt out, haha.

Fun, right?

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I think the CS argument and testing should stay in the CS topic, so it doesn't spam this one too much, since there are other topics of this thread (that have been overrun by CS).

Man, this really shouldn't turn into another F230 topic of rudeness and sarcasm, it's not as huge of a deal, really.

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Also, true lion gale force wall and fee-hee-heenay call

Aw, don't worry. It won't be a problem.

Although, I never get the impression of sarcasm or rudeness while talking about F230, which could be good, or, given the fact that probably means I've unknowingly ticked some people off, is probably bad, haha.

Perhaps my rudeness detector is broken.

Anyway, on the actual topic at hand (which isn't CS, like Leone19 just said - we'll take that to the CS thread that Dr Soda wrote), the reason I actually want CS/RSF/RB removed from BD145 Defense, is because I think BD145 Defense is on absurdly thin ice as it is. I think, whether you're using RDF or CS, BD145 Defense is still shaky, what with Wyvang's aggressive mold running around. I almost never get below a winning KO rate with any Attack type against a BD145 Defense combo (usually 70+%), and it makes me think E230 may be flat-out superior as far as handling same-spin Attack goes.

As far as Rubber Ball goes, I've never had any problems with it "rolling" over the TR - could somebody explain that a bit more deeply? I actually love RB (I still think we should toss it from BD145, but on E230 it rocks the house down), but it seems like none of you guys do.

Now, I only have one RB and I don't have as much experience with it as I'd like, but do you think it has anything to do with wear? Mine is a bit oval-shaped after using it a bit, but it still seems really solid (perhaps wear actually improves its Defensive qualities, but I really can't testify to anything like that since I don't have two with different levels of wear; or at least I won't for a couple days. I have some coming in the mail this week and when they get here I can test that).

RSF is just too flimsy for me. Pretty much the same case as CS. I just don't get high results with either.

The reason I propose we keep BD145RDF, is because it's still the best setup against left-spin Attack (and really the only viable one as far as stationary Defense goes if you ask me). If Dragooon Attack wasn't a thing, I'd probably propose we just move RB and RDF to E230 and kick CS/RSF.

So I think we all generally agree that RF should be added to BD145 Defense, and that Duo should be removed. So we just need to settle which tips should go and which shouldn't (which I might have trouble with, because is we don't remove CS, I'd want RSF and RB to stay there, since they're both better for me than CS and I don't feel like removing them would be justifies in that case).

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I would rather rb go actually, but that is just opinion. But in someone's test result on this site rb did worse than cs. And rb seems to have softer rubber to start with compared to the rf rs tips. It also seemed to wear at a quick rate, because it was always spinning on about one point, but it is also a tad mobile. Maybe it was just mine, but my rb wore out pretty quickly so now it's kinda this rubber wide flat thing

---

I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
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OK, so I just went back and looked, and it would seem that, while only one person besides me is in favor of removing CS from E230, it would seem that 5/9 of us are in favor of removing it from BD145 Defense (which is what I'm most concerned about, personally - this process could take a while, so if nothing at all happens to E230 Defense, that's OK with me; cleaning up the BD145 section is my priority right now).

So, the majority is actually in favor of removing it it from BD145 Defense.

I have an idea! Let's post a chart of the tier list as the majority of us would like to see it:

DEFENSE

Duo

• MF-H Duo (Aquario/Cancer/Hades/Cygnus) BD145 RF
  

Revizer/Killerken

• MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) (Revizer/Killerken) BD145 (RSF/RDF)
  
• MSF-H (Revizer/Killerken) Killerken BD145 RF
  
• MSF-H Revizer (Revizer/Killerken) E230 (CS/RDF/RB)
  

Genbull

• MSF-H Revizer Genbull E230 (CS/RDF/RB)
  
• MSF-H (Revizer/Genbull) Genbull BD145 (RDF/RF)
  

If we take each proposal and reject, accept, or modify it to fit majority opinion, this is what we get. I still don't like RSF on BD145 Defense - my goal would be complete elimination of all Bottoms besides RDF on BD145. I still don't think CS should be listed on E230 as pure Defense (I could definitely see MSF-H Genbull^2 E230CS going in Balance, though, since it does have some serious destabilization to it and can out-spin half the Stamina meta, which is part of the point I'm trying to make - I don't think CS should be removed from the tier list, just moved out of the Defense section).

Oh, and DrPepsidew, I took the testing we had and re-compressed it, but this time, to make up for the differences in our results concerning the win rates of the defenders, I didn't average them out, but I averaged the percentages out (which should provide a more accurate picture overall):

CS = 59%
RSF = 62.4%
RDF = 82.2%

Keep in mind, these are not average win rates (except CS' win rate, since I need something to base it off of). These are ratios of how high RSF's and RDF's win rates are compared to CS (I averaged out the percentages from ours, rather than the win rates themselves this time, so this should be more accurate).

Anyway, in this case, the gap between CS and RDF is about 39.3% relative to CS (meaning RDF is about 139.3% as good as CS, or, if we went the other way we would get... CS = 71.8% as good as RDF).

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I like percentages makes everything more precise
But I think we should take rb away from reviser genbu e230, or could some one test it to se which tip is best for that specific combo. We should have where we have just the best versions of each combo. ( though I don't think that would work, but it would be more helpful if we new the best and track combo for every custom) if only I still had genbull, I would totally help, but as of now I can only offer personal experience and opinion.

---

I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
My avatar was made by my good friend ToxicVisage. Check out his commissions page here

OK guys, so I got my Rubber Defense Flats and Rubber Balls in the mail today, and I got some RB testing done. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I thought wear might positively effect RB's performance, and I had the opportunity, so I went ahead and tested the theory as well.

Quick benchmark with CS:

MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS vs. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F
CS slightly worn. R2F Prime. Top Wyvang, aggressive mold. Bottom Wyvang, calm mold. Wyvangs heavily worn. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Wyvang: wins, 9/20 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 11/20 (2 KO, 9 OS)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145CS win rate: 55%

OK, the feathers on my Wyvangs are literally just triangles now - nowhere near the smash of a new Wyvang Synchrom. Kind of depressing, actually.

Anywho, RB testing!

MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB vs. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F
RB worn (to the point where the protruding rubber is about 2/3 the original thickness vertically). R2F Prime. Top Wyvang, aggressive mold. Bottom Wyvang, calm mold. Wyvangs heavily worn. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Wyvang: wins, 5/20 (4 KO, 1 OS)
Revizer: wins, 15/20 (1 KO, 14 OS)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB win rate: 75%

This is what I expected. RB worked a lot better than CS in this testing, both numerically and visibly (the KOs were much closer, and apart from the OHKOs, RB wasn't getting knocked around much). That was the worn RB, which will, theoretically, yield better results than a new one.

Now for the testing with the new RB:

MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB vs. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F
RB brand new. R2F Prime. Top Wyvang, aggressive mold. Bottom Wyvang, calm mold. Wyvangs heavily worn. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Wyvang: wins, 11/20 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB win rate: 45%

This thing was an absolute piece of Garbage. It couldn't hold its ground, and it skipped over the tornado ridge like EWD on a Dragooon Zombie. I have never seen a Defensive tip do this awful.

My suspicion: RB begins with a horrible shape for Defense that allows it to skip right over the tornado ridge when hit, and the rubber isn't soft enough to hold ground against a heavy hit from an Attack custom. However, when it's decently worn, the shape is altered to a much more favorable one, and the rubber softens to a nice density. At that point, it performs better than both CS and RSF (well, depending on what results you get with CS) defensively.

See, now I'm torn; the condition in which a part is considered good isn't supposed to effect whether or not it's tiered:

You guys keep mentioning "wear" as if it is something that should be considered when deciding whether or not to include a part on a top tier list. Why is that? If a part is good enough to be on the list in any condition (brand new, slightly worn, worn, etc.), it should be added. It doesn't matter if it's performance becomes undesirable at a later stage, if it quickly wears, or whatever. For example, if that was true, rubber Bottoms would not have a place on top tier lists.

But at the same time... ugh.

I'm shocked at how horrendous that thing was brand new. For whatever reason, it definitely doesn't Do that in Limited Format (in which it is definitely superior to CS and RSF), but it seems to be terrible with/against heavy-weight Standard Attack/Defense customs. Maybe the weight creep is partly to blame for the skipping...

Oh, I also tried it briefly on E230, and it doesn't seem to have problems. It actually does noticeably better than CS, so I have no concerns there, but on BD145...

Go figure.

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Him I was expecting the inverse, I never rally thought about wear except with rf, when it has that weird stiffness where it is too aggressive. I will remember to always wear my rubber tips now.
Either way this was a pretty good test if I do say so myself and the results seem accurate. I am starting to think now that cs should only be used as a last resort or replacement, rather than a primary choice.(with the exception of e/f230 combos)

---

I will set everything on fire, and drown the world in flames, just like my computer
I apologize for my past stupidity, if you have seen my posts, you understand. I must gain knowledge, to atone for my idiocy.
My avatar was made by my good friend ToxicVisage. Check out his commissions page here

Now for the testing with the new RB:

MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB vs. MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang H145R2F
RB brand new. R2F Prime. Top Wyvang, aggressive mold. Bottom Wyvang, calm mold. Wyvangs heavily worn. Revizer launched first on all launches.
Wyvang: wins, 11/20 (All KO)
Revizer: wins, 9/20 (All OS)
MSF-H Revizer Revizer BD145RB win rate: 45%

This thing was an absolute piece of Garbage. It couldn't hold its ground, and it skipped over the tornado ridge like EWD on a Dragooon Zombie. I have never seen a Defensive tip do this awful.

My suspicion: RB begins with a horrible shape for Defense that allows it to skip right over the tornado ridge when hit, and the rubber isn't soft enough to hold ground against a heavy hit from an Attack custom. However, when it's decently worn, the shape is altered to a much more favorable one, and the rubber softens to a nice density. At that point, it performs better than both CS and RSF (well, depending on what results you get with CS) defensively.

So now you know firsthand what we mean when we say RB skips the Tornado Ridge. I guess in your defense (no pun intended) wear did have a positive effect on RB. I hardly ever use mine, which explains why it's in such a bad shape and skips so much, which explains why I don't use it... etc. I'll wear mine down a bit and test again if I have time, along with RDF, but between summer work and other stuff I can't say for sure when the tests will be up.

That thing was really, really bad.

Yuck.

I'll try to get pictures up for comparison, so you guys can see how worn the good one is.

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Sorry for the double post guys, but I want you all to see this:



The worn (more effective) RB is on the left. The one on the right is completely unused (AKA a piece of garbage).

So that's the visual difference. If anybody has an RB of both conditions, please test them out and post it here.

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In all honesty, if CS stays on E230, that's cool.
#movingon
Yeah, RB mint is terrible. I wore mine down so it'd work better XD
RSF works in certain combinations, RDF is the best for BD145 indefinitely.

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Veteran, just getting back into the sway of things