With Curse having not ideal stamina compared to others, that would mean its just primarily defense at this point. As much as it does relieve me that its not an OP Stamina-Defense Hybrid monster that'll dominate everything, it still poses a threat to the majority of attackers. If Curse is a threat to Attack then less Attack is played. Then more LAD is going to be played to counter Curse. Or maybe I'm over estimating it..

Edit: It's important that Attack is played in GT to balance out possible LAD spam

True. Just purely defense. So here’s how I see things:
The main game is stamina. That’s what most people will play. Stamina LAD hybrids like never, Xtend+, hxt+’, bearing’, bearing, zone’+z, etc… 
             Stamina> Attack > Defense> Opp. Spin LAD> Same Spin
Does that make sense? People will use attack often, but mainly just to counter stamina. To counter the counter they’ll use defense. And to counter defense there’s more than 1 way. Either more same spin or more opposite spin stamina. This really shows that GT is a very balanced system since everything that counters eachother actually does it’s job. It’s just more complicated than the defense>stamina>attack triangle since LAD is a big part as well as specific attack countering other attackers, or specific stamina drivers having worse or better opp. Spin. 

So I’m guessing people will play curse as a counter to attack, but that just leads back to stamina or LAD having attack to counter it. Curse will no doubt lessen attack a bit, but with stamina to lessen defense attack will also greaten. Everything balances. 

I do think you’re overestimating curse a bit though. For one, it’s not like it’s a stone wall that’s impervious to judgement. And another thing is that who would actually take the risk? The only benefit curse will bring is beating attack, but with stamina being around so much as well it’s kinda like a 1 in 3 chance curse will get a favorable match. Most of the time stamina’s gonna be played, with a close 2nd being judgement combos, as well as other niche combos and combos meant specifically for same spin and opposite spin. I’d say aggressive stuff is about 1/3 of the overall combos so curse is a big risk to use in general. 

I dunno it’s all wierd. Luckily me and you have a tournament on the 26th so we’ll get to see. I’ll say one thing myself though, aggressive as a lot of my combos are I’m probably not gonna use curse unless I have a feeling I need too.

Now that you do bring it up it does make sense that it all balances out. Curse isn't perfect defense (since Judgement ofc) and you can just use the next type to counter and counter. I understand that a bit more now.

---

"I think that past your great disasters, their victory stirs below your skin." // (Use Code: CINDER on BeysandBricks for 8% off!)

Spoiler (Click to View)

✮ Player & Organizer for the Los Angeles County Beyblade community.
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Also @th!nk, here’s the video I mentioned somewhere that I saw after I re-did my testings. I forgot how to make it show in video form, so I’ll just post the link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATT3OIGiZlY

His only stamina test was a mirror match vs Perfect Pheonix using the Hyperion chip, but I did testings vs lord and others on my own. And for the recoil test I basically just used lord and compared curse’ recoil with other layers. It doesn’t have much recoil when it’s balanced.

---

Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

True. Just purely defense. So here’s how I see things:
The main game is stamina. That’s what most people will play. Stamina LAD hybrids like never, Xtend+, hxt+’, bearing’, bearing, zone’+z, etc… 
             Stamina> Attack > Defense> Opp. Spin LAD> Same Spin
Does that make sense? People will use attack often, but mainly just to counter stamina. To counter the counter they’ll use defense. And to counter defense there’s more than 1 way. Either more same spin or more opposite spin stamina. This really shows that GT is a very balanced system since everything that counters eachother actually does it’s job. It’s just more complicated than the defense>stamina>attack triangle since LAD is a big part as well as specific attack countering other attackers, or specific stamina drivers having worse or better opp. Spin. 

So I’m guessing people will play curse as a counter to attack, but that just leads back to stamina or LAD having attack to counter it. Curse will no doubt lessen attack a bit, but with stamina to lessen defense attack will also greaten. Everything balances. 

I do think you’re overestimating curse a bit though. For one, it’s not like it’s a stone wall that’s impervious to judgement. And another thing is that who would actually take the risk? The only benefit curse will bring is beating attack, but with stamina being around so much as well it’s kinda like a 1 in 3 chance curse will get a favorable match. Most of the time stamina’s gonna be played, with a close 2nd being judgement combos, as well as other niche combos and combos meant specifically for same spin and opposite spin. I’d say aggressive stuff is about 1/3 of the overall combos so curse is a big risk to use in general. 

I dunno it’s all wierd. Luckily me and you have a tournament on the 26th so we’ll get to see. I’ll say one thing myself though, aggressive as a lot of my combos are I’m probably not gonna use curse unless I have a feeling I need too.

Now that you do bring it up it does make sense that it all balances out. Curse isn't perfect defense (since Judgement ofc) and you can just use the next type to counter and counter. I understand that a bit more now.

Why would you use left spin attack when you could use either a driver with more LAD or more same spin stamina. The same sorta balance is what makes standard kinda dull. A lot of people wanted gt for an attack heavy format, not standard 2.0

Plus the format is burst gt... Do we really want superking to play a huge part and shape the metagame? 🤔

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

The real problem with Curse is that it can use LAD drivers and still totally replace dedicated Defense combos. This is why this thing is gross and turns the format into Standard 2: LAD Boogaloo:

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Archer Hercules 00 Keep'
aH launched about 50% strength. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode

Results (Click to View)

1. aHOS
2. ZKO
3. aHOS
4. ZKO
5. ZKO
6. ZKO
7. aHKO
8. aHOS
9. aHOS
10. aHOS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (all KO)
aH Win Rate: 60% (5 OS, 1 KO)

For anyone that says Curse is needed as an answer to Zwei or that it somehow creates a type triangle (drift is a stamina driver despite what the box says, that's not a triangle)... I feel like Standard might have made you forget about the entire Defense type... There is an answer, it just comes with a suitably high risk with opposing match ups - this is how Defense is balanced in MFL (deliberately so, to encourage attack use... And even there some areas refuse to use rubber flat!)
This is also launching Zwei harder than I would like to at a tournament, if you aren't launching that strong you'll drop a match or two... more if you self ko... I would not like to be the Zwei user here. 

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S
Curse weak launched. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode. Note: No Metal Chips used here!

Results (Click to View)

1. CBST 
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. ZKO
6. COS
7. ZKO
8. ZKO
9. ZKO
10. COS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (All KO)
Curse Win Rate: 60% (5OS, 1 BST)
I also tried 1D but while it does a little worse vs zwei it still does okay AND stomps LLD. I did try ratchet and got a couple KOs but this curse setup is just a pain in the rear. 
This Zwei setup does not burst easily, and first round curse survives a bunch of hits and then makes it explode. This thing not only bursts LLD all day but it can burst Zwei 🤦‍♂️

I think I ended up launching even harder vs curse... A launch I probably couldn't trust myself with in a tournament. 

It's not even attack I'm worried about here. Why would you bother using Defense when you can do this and still outspin anything in opposite as long as you have a driver advantage?

That said, quick show of it winning an opposite spin match against a relevant combo showing it has at least solid use in opposite.

Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S vs Turbo Spryzen S4 10Lift Br(H) (LEFT)
Lift in narrow down mode. Curse launched weak, tS4 launched hard.

Results (Click to View)

1. COS
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. COS
6. COS
7. COS
8. COS
9. COS
10. COS

Curse Win Rate: 100% (All OS)
tS4 Win Rate: 0%
This took ages, but curse was having zero issues winning against this notable Hasbearing Combo (which can OS Drift with worse layers). Curse is not nearly bad enough to murk itself in opposite with a driver advantage. This is important - aside from Drift mirrors (which I only have mdr to test against) Curse can just shut down left spin anything while sitting on 00Wall Drift. Unless you want drift vs drift a lot... It should go.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

a few questions:

So 00wall drift is busted on curse. It seems to consistently win by os, and is winning against judgment and zweit. How? from what i've seen, curse sucks at stamina, and is actually decent on things like vanguard+v and charge metal where that isn't a problem and it brings out curse's attack potential, so why is it wrecking with drift? will xtend+ in defense or universe metal do the same thing? It just feels like the whole judgement+blitz thing all over again, it should be wayyyyy to low to os things like that. can someone test this against rage stock or smth, and judgement/zwei with destroy' or xceed'+z?

---

emotional DaMAgE

a few questions:

So 00wall drift is busted on curse. It seems to consistently win by os, and is winning against judgment and zweit. How? from what i've seen, curse sucks at stamina, and is actually decent on things like vanguard+v and charge metal where that isn't a problem and it brings out curse's attack potential, so why is it wrecking with drift? will xtend+ in defense or universe metal do the same thing? It just feels like the whole judgement+blitz thing all over again, it should be wayyyyy to low to os things like that. can someone test this against rage stock or smth, and judgement/zwei with destroy' or xceed'+z?

-Wrong. 00 wall is busted on curse. For defense. Outspinning any bey on extreme really doesn’t take much. And even then, drift gets knocked out of control. 

-Personally I don’t think curse has much stamina (though I did my testings with the Satan chip) and others did their testings with either solomon or Lucifer2 and in their tests curse seems to have great same spin. I think solomon and Lucifer2 are probably carrying it, but on its own it’s stamina is good at best. 

-Wha? Where did you hear vanguard +v (and by plus v I assume you mean venture +v?) or charge metal? Curse literally has like 0 recoil. If there’s was a scale from 1-1000 of curse’s recoil I’d say 10 at the very most. And for comparison judgement would be 10000000. 

I’m so confused.

---

Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

Ok, let’s ban it for now. I agree with th1nk! That LAD is getting way too strong nowadays. Hope BU nerfs it.

a few questions:

So 00wall drift is busted on curse. It seems to consistently win by os, and is winning against judgment and zweit. How? from what i've seen, curse sucks at stamina, and is actually decent on things like vanguard+v and charge metal where that isn't a problem and it brings out curse's attack potential, so why is it wrecking with drift? will xtend+ in defense or universe metal do the same thing? It just feels like the whole judgement+blitz thing all over again, it should be wayyyyy to low to os things like that. can someone test this against rage stock or smth, and judgement/zwei with destroy' or xceed'+z?

It's round with wheels and tanks hits like a champ... I think you just saw wrong on stamina? It's a very defensive design that can also grind opponents. Also confused as to why you are talking about standard format, rubber-phobic combos in GT... X' exists. You can even use Quick' if you can't control that... This is the format for it, curse and abyss aside. No offense but putting judgment or zwei on ds' is pretty bad, you have rotational recoil which plastic doesn't control, and they aren't built to outspin things. The issue is the combo is too round and weighty to push far enough - this is not helped by even less speed or friction on the attack type involved, this is why every other generation we have used rubber tips for attack, it's so odd to me that we hit burst and suddenly everyone is scared to say Xtreme'... Anyway no, they won't help, and Vn+v might work on curse because curse can spin steal and that driver has good LAD? Works on almight+s+v too as weight defense. Kinda defeats the big use of perfect genesis too, pushing out another native layer.
For Ds' you really want imperial (which is phenomenal on Ds' - see my benchmark test with it in the death thread or random testing), but I'm pretty sure that will bully Curse Drift easily enough anyway, like it bullies a lot of right spin stamina. I can have a look and see what else might work there to see just how disruptive this is.

That said, for aggressive layers that still tank stuff you can see Abyss once the testing thread is up or Death, which is a bit worse but you can stack weight on it to tank Zwei quite well... This is kinda why a lot of this SK stuff doesn't belong in GT IMO.

As has been said earlier in the thread, judgment (at least on x') will beat this, but that is separate to the point stated in my post about the warping effect this has on the format. I want there to be dedicated defense in GT..I might even be ok if they use zn'+z as it's lad is just okay, not sure yet, but drift? Nahhhhhh... Don't want layers that can abuse it.

Drift isn't even the point here either - curse is "busted" for gt, not a driver busted for curse, I guess I should have used a less contentious driver too... Maybe I can do that tonight. I was just using drift as it's an obvious choice for being weak launched in opposite. I might be able to come up with something else as well (esp vs imperial Ds').

As for curse Vn+v, I will try it, I can see ways it could work though not aggressive ones - how are you launching it? Banking, strength etc.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

The real problem with Curse is that it can use LAD drivers and still totally replace dedicated Defense combos. This is why this thing is gross and turns the format into Standard 2: LAD Boogaloo:

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Archer Hercules 00 Keep'
aH launched about 50% strength. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode

Results (Click to View)

1. aHOS
2. ZKO
3. aHOS
4. ZKO
5. ZKO
6. ZKO
7. aHKO
8. aHOS
9. aHOS
10. aHOS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (all KO)
aH Win Rate: 60% (5 OS, 1 KO)

For anyone that says Curse is needed as an answer to Zwei or that it somehow creates a type triangle (drift is a stamina driver despite what the box says, that's not a triangle)... I feel like Standard might have made you forget about the entire Defense type... There is an answer, it just comes with a suitably high risk with opposing match ups - this is how Defense is balanced in MFL (deliberately so, to encourage attack use... And even there some areas refuse to use rubber flat!)
This is also launching Zwei harder than I would like to at a tournament, if you aren't launching that strong you'll drop a match or two... more if you self ko... I would not like to be the Zwei user here. 

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S
Curse weak launched. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode. Note: No Metal Chips used here!

Results (Click to View)

1. CBST 
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. ZKO
6. COS
7. ZKO
8. ZKO
9. ZKO
10. COS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (All KO)
Curse Win Rate: 60% (5OS, 1 BST)
I also tried 1D but while it does a little worse vs zwei it still does okay AND stomps LLD. I did try ratchet and got a couple KOs but this curse setup is just a pain in the rear. 
This Zwei setup does not burst easily, and first round curse survives a bunch of hits and then makes it explode. This thing not only bursts LLD all day but it can burst Zwei 🤦‍♂️

I think I ended up launching even harder vs curse... A launch I probably couldn't trust myself with in a tournament. 

It's not even attack I'm worried about here. Why would you bother using Defense when you can do this and still outspin anything in opposite as long as you have a driver advantage?

That said, quick show of it winning an opposite spin match against a relevant combo showing it has at least solid use in opposite.

Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S vs Turbo Spryzen S4 10Lift Br(H) (LEFT)
Lift in narrow down mode. Curse launched weak, tS4 launched hard.

Results (Click to View)

1. COS
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. COS
6. COS
7. COS
8. COS
9. COS
10. COS

Curse Win Rate: 100% (All OS)
tS4 Win Rate: 0%
This took ages, but curse was having zero issues winning against this notable Hasbearing Combo (which can OS Drift with worse layers). Curse is not nearly bad enough to murk itself in opposite with a driver advantage. This is important - aside from Drift mirrors (which I only have mdr to test against) Curse can just shut down left spin anything while sitting on 00Wall Drift. Unless you want drift vs drift a lot... It should go.

Perhaps doing benchmark testing for curse would be better. Like benchmark curse on 00 keep’ vs Judgement and then do another defense layer with 00 keep’ vs judgement. Then put curse on drift against master on Zn’+z or zomething and then compare it with a layer besides curse. Comparing curse with the best defense and best LAD layer in a benchmark mirror match would really show specifically how good curse is compared to the best of the best. I’d personally do this as well, but the best defense drivers I’ve got are unite’ and Octa which aren’t bad and I do like them quite a bit but they aren’t on the same level as keep’. I do have keep but it bursts to much to actually get to the point of outspins. And I do have master left, but comparing a left defense layer vs a right defense type layer both against judgement wouldn’t be accurate.

---

So what it seems like is that Curse has got great same spin, good opposite spin, and great defense. A problem with this is:
1- A strong defense layer takes out attack and turns it into standard basically
2- Not only can it do 1 (above) but it’s LAD also makes it even more versatile

However there is a debate to everything I just said.
- Curse may have great same spin, but that’s only with Lucifer2 and solomon. I did testings with curse Satan alone and it won about 20% of the time vs lord. Lord really just had more same spin. 60% of the time vs Cosmo, curse just had more stamina and the wheels really took a lot out of Cosmo, and about 50% with glide, glide’s 3 wings do have some pretty gnarly contact points and the recoil can do some stuff but curse did well not being affecting by it too much. What I’d have is multiple people testing curse without any cores that have metal for stamina

-There really is no way to test curse’s opposite spin besides putting it against stuff like left lord and left master on the same setup. I have done this, but the best LAD drivers I have 2 of are destroy. So I used 0 (4 star) expand destroy on both and curse seemed about average. For this I’d say multiple people testing curse vs lord and master and then compare something like Perfect Pheonix with the same setup against those same opponents.

-There’s no debating this part. Curse’s defense really is pretty good, but it is not invincible. Judgement does well against and it and this video by Shindog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMayhVqK-bk&t=2s shows that even if curse has solomon, with a good launch and a bit of luck Zwei isn’t completely out of the running against curse either.

-Curse may weaken attack, but ask yourself this. Who would take the risk of using curse? With stamina/lad hybrids being used about as about 1/3 of the overall combos that could be seen, the chance that curse would lose is a bit higher than that it would lose. Plus despite it weakening attack a bit, attack will still be there.

-For is also having LAD I’ll point you to my 2nd point.

That’s basically everything summarized and what my opinions are against it. What do ya’ll think about this?

---

Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

I think curse isn’t that crazy, but still ban worthy, We should also ban LAD tips that Judgement and Zwei can’t handle.

The real problem with Curse is that it can use LAD drivers and still totally replace dedicated Defense combos. This is why this thing is gross and turns the format into Standard 2: LAD Boogaloo:

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Archer Hercules 00 Keep'
aH launched about 50% strength. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode

Results (Click to View)

1. aHOS
2. ZKO
3. aHOS
4. ZKO
5. ZKO
6. ZKO
7. aHKO
8. aHOS
9. aHOS
10. aHOS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (all KO)
aH Win Rate: 60% (5 OS, 1 KO)

For anyone that says Curse is needed as an answer to Zwei or that it somehow creates a type triangle (drift is a stamina driver despite what the box says, that's not a triangle)... I feel like Standard might have made you forget about the entire Defense type... There is an answer, it just comes with a suitably high risk with opposing match ups - this is how Defense is balanced in MFL (deliberately so, to encourage attack use... And even there some areas refuse to use rubber flat!)
This is also launching Zwei harder than I would like to at a tournament, if you aren't launching that strong you'll drop a match or two... more if you self ko... I would not like to be the Zwei user here. 

Zwei Diabolos1 Convert Qc' vs Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S
Curse weak launched. Zwei launched FULL YEET. Convert in Balanced Mode. Note: No Metal Chips used here!

Results (Click to View)

1. CBST 
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. ZKO
6. COS
7. ZKO
8. ZKO
9. ZKO
10. COS

Zwei Win Rate: 40% (All KO)
Curse Win Rate: 60% (5OS, 1 BST)
I also tried 1D but while it does a little worse vs zwei it still does okay AND stomps LLD. I did try ratchet and got a couple KOs but this curse setup is just a pain in the rear. 
This Zwei setup does not burst easily, and first round curse survives a bunch of hits and then makes it explode. This thing not only bursts LLD all day but it can burst Zwei 🤦‍♂️

I think I ended up launching even harder vs curse... A launch I probably couldn't trust myself with in a tournament. 

It's not even attack I'm worried about here. Why would you bother using Defense when you can do this and still outspin anything in opposite as long as you have a driver advantage?

That said, quick show of it winning an opposite spin match against a relevant combo showing it has at least solid use in opposite.

Curse Satan 00Wall Drift 1S vs Turbo Spryzen S4 10Lift Br(H) (LEFT)
Lift in narrow down mode. Curse launched weak, tS4 launched hard.

Results (Click to View)

1. COS
2. COS
3. COS
4. COS
5. COS
6. COS
7. COS
8. COS
9. COS
10. COS

Curse Win Rate: 100% (All OS)
tS4 Win Rate: 0%
This took ages, but curse was having zero issues winning against this notable Hasbearing Combo (which can OS Drift with worse layers). Curse is not nearly bad enough to murk itself in opposite with a driver advantage. This is important - aside from Drift mirrors (which I only have mdr to test against) Curse can just shut down left spin anything while sitting on 00Wall Drift. Unless you want drift vs drift a lot... It should go.

Perhaps doing benchmark testing for curse would be better. Like benchmark curse on 00 keep’ vs Judgement and then do another defense layer with 00 keep’ vs judgement. Then put curse on drift against master on Zn’+z or zomething and then compare it with a layer besides curse. Comparing curse with the best defense and best LAD layer in a benchmark mirror match would really show specifically how good curse is compared to the best of the best. I’d personally do this as well, but the best defense drivers I’ve got are unite’ and Octa which aren’t bad and I do like them quite a bit but they aren’t on the same level as keep’. I do have keep but it bursts to much to actually get to the point of outspins. And I do have master left, but comparing a left defense layer vs a right defense type layer both against judgement wouldn’t be accurate.

---

So what it seems like is that Curse has got great same spin, good opposite spin, and great defense. A problem with this is:
1- A strong defense layer takes out attack and turns it into standard basically
2- Not only can it do 1 (above) but it’s LAD also makes it even more versatile

However there is a debate to everything I just said.
- Curse may have great same spin, but that’s only with Lucifer2 and solomon. I did testings with curse Satan alone and it won about 20% of the time vs lord. Lord really just had more same spin. 60% of the time vs Cosmo, curse just had more stamina and the wheels really took a lot out of Cosmo, and about 50% with glide, glide’s 3 wings do have some pretty gnarly contact points and the recoil can do some stuff but curse did well not being affecting by it too much. What I’d have is multiple people testing curse without any cores that have metal for stamina

-There really is no way to test curse’s opposite spin besides putting it against stuff like left lord and left master on the same setup. I have done this, but the best LAD drivers I have 2 of are destroy. So I used 0 (4 star) expand destroy on both and curse seemed about average. For this I’d say multiple people testing curse vs lord and master and then compare something like Perfect Pheonix with the same setup against those same opponents.

-There’s no debating this part. Curse’s defense really is pretty good, but it is not invincible. Judgement does well against and it and this video by Shindog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMayhVqK-bk&t=2s shows that even if curse has solomon, with a good launch and a bit of luck Zwei isn’t completely out of the running against curse either.

-Curse may weaken attack, but ask yourself this. Who would take the risk of using curse? With stamina/lad hybrids being used about as about 1/3 of the overall combos that could be seen, the chance that curse would lose is a bit higher than that it would lose. Plus despite it weakening attack a bit, attack will still be there.

-For is also having LAD I’ll point you to my 2nd point.

That’s basically everything summarized and what my opinions are against it. What do ya’ll think about this?

You keep talking about judgment like that match up matters... I explained my testing methodology in my post very clearly, no, benchmark testing is not the point of what I have shown here.
And ignoring the point of driver advantage testing - not everything will be on drift, but it will have to be to counter curse because Curse will take out the next best LAD if using Drift. Unless you are just expecting drift vs drift? That's gloomy.
Yes, I think most would use one of the best defensive layers that also does very well in opposite spin... Who would take the risk of using Attack when you can win non drift opposite match ups anyway? People use Prominence in standard.

I think you should read more thoroughly and consider what is written. Really. It will help a lot - no offense intended, it's just something I think would help you out a lot.

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I think curse should be banned, only super, king, maybe variant can stay, glide too, as they No have stupid game breaking stuff.

I think curse should be banned, only super, king, maybe variant can stay, glide too, as they No have stupid game breaking stuff.

To be fair, Super, King, and Variant have no testing yet. I plan to do some basic stuff with Super and Variant, both of which I'm not that worried about (definitely not without metal chips), and I think Dan is testing King as we speak. Zankye also has abyss on his schedule. It's a bit like the good old days

---

th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Perhaps doing benchmark testing for curse would be better. Like benchmark curse on 00 keep’ vs Judgement and then do another defense layer with 00 keep’ vs judgement. Then put curse on drift against master on Zn’+z or zomething and then compare it with a layer besides curse. Comparing curse with the best defense and best LAD layer in a benchmark mirror match would really show specifically how good curse is compared to the best of the best. I’d personally do this as well, but the best defense drivers I’ve got are unite’ and Octa which aren’t bad and I do like them quite a bit but they aren’t on the same level as keep’. I do have keep but it bursts to much to actually get to the point of outspins. And I do have master left, but comparing a left defense layer vs a right defense type layer both against judgement wouldn’t be accurate.

---

So what it seems like is that Curse has got great same spin, good opposite spin, and great defense. A problem with this is:
1- A strong defense layer takes out attack and turns it into standard basically
2- Not only can it do 1 (above) but it’s LAD also makes it even more versatile

However there is a debate to everything I just said.
- Curse may have great same spin, but that’s only with Lucifer2 and solomon. I did testings with curse Satan alone and it won about 20% of the time vs lord. Lord really just had more same spin. 60% of the time vs Cosmo, curse just had more stamina and the wheels really took a lot out of Cosmo, and about 50% with glide, glide’s 3 wings do have some pretty gnarly contact points and the recoil can do some stuff but curse did well not being affecting by it too much. What I’d have is multiple people testing curse without any cores that have metal for stamina

-There really is no way to test curse’s opposite spin besides putting it against stuff like left lord and left master on the same setup. I have done this, but the best LAD drivers I have 2 of are destroy. So I used 0 (4 star) expand destroy on both and curse seemed about average. For this I’d say multiple people testing curse vs lord and master and then compare something like Perfect Pheonix with the same setup against those same opponents.

-There’s no debating this part. Curse’s defense really is pretty good, but it is not invincible. Judgement does well against and it and this video by Shindog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMayhVqK-bk&t=2s shows that even if curse has solomon, with a good launch and a bit of luck Zwei isn’t completely out of the running against curse either.

-Curse may weaken attack, but ask yourself this. Who would take the risk of using curse? With stamina/lad hybrids being used about as about 1/3 of the overall combos that could be seen, the chance that curse would lose is a bit higher than that it would lose. Plus despite it weakening attack a bit, attack will still be there.

-For is also having LAD I’ll point you to my 2nd point.

That’s basically everything summarized and what my opinions are against it. What do ya’ll think about this?

You keep talking about judgment like that match up matters... I explained my testing methodology in my post very clearly, no, benchmark testing is not the point of what I have shown here.
And ignoring the point of driver advantage testing - not everything will be on drift, but it will have to be to counter curse because Curse will take out the next best LAD if using Drift. Unless you are just expecting drift vs drift? That's gloomy.
Yes, I think most would use one of the best defensive layers that also does very well in opposite spin... Who would take the risk of using Attack when you can win non drift opposite match ups anyway? People use Prominence in standard.

I think you should read more thoroughly and consider what is written. Really. It will help a lot - no offense intended, it's just something I think would help you out a lot.

I’m confused as to what you are saying with the drift part. And yes I am aware people use prominence in standard, but it’s risky. If we are using that example prominence on something like zone’+z would have top tier opposite spin and defense. But same spin? Eeeeeehhhhh. And curse is NOT an unbreakable wall. As well, despite it being good for LAD it’s not better than the best things. It’s merely equal. And it’s same spin, in my opinion, is mostly carried by the heavier chips. Heavier chips aren’t banned though so I guess we’ll just have to deal with that. 
I am reading what is written, I simply have my own opinions about curse. And no offense taken, after all we’re just debating how good a spinning top piece is. Even if this “spinning top piece” is part of Beyblade which is something we all share a love for, It’s not like we have to offend each other, or take offense over it. And I’m sorry if I’ve been saying things that imply I haven’t been reading, just that like I said I’ve got my opinions and would like to express them.

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Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

You keep talking about judgment like that match up matters... I explained my testing methodology in my post very clearly, no, benchmark testing is not the point of what I have shown here.
And ignoring the point of driver advantage testing - not everything will be on drift, but it will have to be to counter curse because Curse will take out the next best LAD if using Drift. Unless you are just expecting drift vs drift? That's gloomy.
Yes, I think most would use one of the best defensive layers that also does very well in opposite spin... Who would take the risk of using Attack when you can win non drift opposite match ups anyway? People use Prominence in standard.

I think you should read more thoroughly and consider what is written. Really. It will help a lot - no offense intended, it's just something I think would help you out a lot.

I’m confused as to what you are saying with the drift part. And yes I am aware people use prominence in standard, but it’s risky. If we are using that example prominence on something like zone’+z would have top tier opposite spin and defense. But same spin? Eeeeeehhhhh. And curse is NOT an unbreakable wall. As well, despite it being good for LAD it’s not better than the best things. It’s merely equal. And it’s same spin, in my opinion, is mostly carried by the heavier chips. Heavier chips aren’t banned though so I guess we’ll just have to deal with that. 
I am reading what is written, I simply have my own opinions about curse. And no offense taken, after all we’re just debating how good a spinning top piece is. Even if this “spinning top piece” is part of Beyblade which is something we all share a love for, It’s not like we have to offend each other, or take offense over it. And I’m sorry if I’ve been saying things that imply I haven’t been reading, just that like I said I’ve got my opinions and would like to express them.

It removes dedicated defense from the equation (dedicated defense still wants to be in opposite anyway), and being able to crush enough stuff in opposite spin makes it versatile *enough* to see use, even just as a defense combination. Same spin is mostly irrelevant when you're using drift anyhow.
I am glad you aren't taking it the wrong way, it just seems like you haven't noticed the point I'm making.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I’m confused as to what you are saying with the drift part. And yes I am aware people use prominence in standard, but it’s risky. If we are using that example prominence on something like zone’+z would have top tier opposite spin and defense. But same spin? Eeeeeehhhhh. And curse is NOT an unbreakable wall. As well, despite it being good for LAD it’s not better than the best things. It’s merely equal. And it’s same spin, in my opinion, is mostly carried by the heavier chips. Heavier chips aren’t banned though so I guess we’ll just have to deal with that. 
I am reading what is written, I simply have my own opinions about curse. And no offense taken, after all we’re just debating how good a spinning top piece is. Even if this “spinning top piece” is part of Beyblade which is something we all share a love for, It’s not like we have to offend each other, or take offense over it. And I’m sorry if I’ve been saying things that imply I haven’t been reading, just that like I said I’ve got my opinions and would like to express them.

It removes dedicated defense from the equation, and being able to crush enough stuff in opposite spin makes it verastile *enough* to see use, even just as a defense combination. Same spin is irrelevant.
I am glad you aren't taking it the wrong way, it just seems like you haven't noticed the point I'm making.

Ok, I might be misinterpreting your pint again, but is it that Curse removes pure defense from the equation, poses a threat to attackers, and is a good equalizer which basically turns this into standard?

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Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

It removes dedicated defense from the equation, and being able to crush enough stuff in opposite spin makes it verastile *enough* to see use, even just as a defense combination. Same spin is irrelevant.
I am glad you aren't taking it the wrong way, it just seems like you haven't noticed the point I'm making.

Ok, I might be misinterpreting your pint again, but is it that Curse removes pure defense from the equation, poses a threat to attackers, and is a good equalizer which basically turns this into standard?

Yeah that's... Actually pretty much it  This is all without metal chips too!

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Maybe ban some of the LAD tips. They are the reason why power creep exists on the most part.

Maybe ban some of the LAD tips. They are the reason why power creep exists on the most part.

… I’m sorry I must have not heard you right. You said the LAD tips are the reason power creep exists? Not, oh you know, the entire point of the Burst System that keeps evolving and newer systems replacing eachother and tips being the only part of Beyblade that does not change much from one system to another?

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Ok, I might be misinterpreting your pint again, but is it that Curse removes pure defense from the equation, poses a threat to attackers, and is a good equalizer which basically turns this into standard?

Yeah that's... Actually pretty much it  This is all without metal chips too!

Well, when it’s put in that way… I can see how curse would be a problem. Especially since with metal chips it has the added same spin stamina along with its defensive and LAD abilities. I guess we just wait until a lot of results come in from tournaments rather than just 3-4 peoples testings? Also I’ve been thinking about testing stuff on glide. Glide was my first superking bey, Rising Ragnarok my first bey, Rantaro (Ragnaruk’s user in the anime) my favorite character, and Ragnarok being my favorite line I really want to make glide viable. I’ll probably do that sometime this week. Tomorrows Thursday so I usually don’t have too much homework, then there’s the weekend 2 days after. Plus there’s the tournament this weekend!

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Blader for 8+years, CA Organizer, hoping to improve at the game and meet more people along the way. Let It Rip!

I've been meaning to do a glide thread as well, spent all of yesterday on Death tho.

Tournaments can help, sometimes they fail to show secondary impacts in a clear way but it'll be interesting to see how they go. I was really hoping for an early burst of attack haha. Then again even without SK parts, Judgment has to deal with Tact which is quite difficult. We will see I guess.

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Maybe ban some of the LAD tips. They are the reason why power creep exists on the most part.

They are part of the game really - TT want to push them, and if you remove the SK layers they aren't really an issue while attack has a lot of power to KO them (Tact is scary on anything you put it on still, but hey).

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

*sigh* Curse too OP?

I tried curse for attack. On Vn+V it is a good spin stealing combination, but attack is uh... I don't know what we call attack nowadays (moving around a bunch =/= attack) but this ain't it. Curse is inert. It can OS in opposite but it doesn't really KO anything of note.

*sigh* Curse too OP?

Please stop making "running commentary" posts like this in response to every other post. Posts should contribute to and enhance discussions.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

I tried curse for attack. On Vn+V it is a good spin stealing combination, but attack is uh... I don't know what we call attack nowadays (moving around a bunch =/= attack) but this ain't it. Curse is inert.

*sigh* Curse too OP?

Please stop making "running commentary" posts like this in response to every other post. Posts should contribute to and enhance discussions.

Ok. I think maybe we should ban Curse paired with something, similar to how PT+Joker was banned from SSBU Doubles before the Pokemon Change Down B accelerates Arsene glitch is patched.

The WBO avoids complex bans where possible (though does sometimes do them). However, think, what would you ban with it? Curse+Anything with half decent LAD? 🤔

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

The WBO avoids complex bans where possible (though does sometimes do them). However, think, what would you ban with it? Curse+Anything with half decent LAD? 🤔

Yep, since that's kinda the reason mr 5 rollers is giving us trouble with it. And no, not banning the part, but the pairing. LAD parts are Ok in this format as long as Zwei and Judgement can shut them down, right?