World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos

Dec. 08, 2011  2:17 AM
 
TH170 combos are supposed to be a challenge?

Anyway, that was my rationale for having Beat on the list in the first place: the list would be too bare, and Beat isn't so bad.
Dec. 08, 2011  4:07 AM
 
Is Hell bad enough to get removed even with the best minute mold?
EDIT: Not removed, I mean be completely unviable.
Dec. 08, 2011  4:08 AM
 
Compared to Phantom or Scythe? Yeah. Definitely as far as I know.
Dec. 08, 2011  4:17 AM
 
sorry. i murked up my post
Dec. 08, 2011  4:20 AM
 
probably, phantom appears to have really absorbed much of the stamina/defense-hybrid metagame.
Dec. 08, 2011  6:13 AM
 
(Dec. 08, 2011  4:07 AM)Mc Frown Wrote: Is Hell bad enough to get removed even with the best minute mold?
EDIT: Not removed, I mean be completely unviable.

(Dec. 08, 2011  4:08 AM)Dan Wrote: Compared to Phantom or Scythe? Yeah. Definitely as far as I know.

Hell is completely non-viable in my opinion. Mind you, the other wheels must be present in the tournament - but if they are, then Hell doesn't stand a chance.
Dec. 08, 2011  9:50 AM
 
There are some people whose tournament scenes have Earth being the best Stamina wheel.

We should not take availability into account on this list.
Dec. 10, 2011  12:33 AM
 
Woah, guys, why is Aquario not on the Stamina Clear Wheel list? It really should, along with Cancer (which IMPO should also be on in defense..)
Dec. 10, 2011  1:09 AM
 
Aquario should be on both Defense and Stamina, yes. Cancer should be mentioned with Phantom especially.

Kei said he would get to this sometime next week. If he does not, I will send Valentin after him.
Dec. 10, 2011  1:13 AM
 
TBH this should stuff probably be changed now, why can't Arupaeo run this thread? Kei has like 403503023 things to juggle, I feel bad for him by even trying to request him to look at this thread!

Some of this stuff have been waiting in the wings for far too long and I don't think Arupaeo would mind changing stuff every now and then?
Dec. 10, 2011  1:43 AM
 
It's Kei's thread to run, though. Arupæo and I could easily edit the first post, but out of respect, we refrain.
Dec. 10, 2011  1:47 AM
 
Sorry, I should explain this further:

Kei has a billion and one things to do and juggle at once, Arupaeo should probably be in charge of this thread if he feels up for it.

No offence to Kei, I really like the guy a lot, but he has a lot of stuff on his plate. Easing that would be good, and help the tier list stay generally up to date.
Dec. 10, 2011  2:08 AM
 
Well, in all honesty, changing the list isn't going to change tournaments, is it? I wouldn't think so, and my BeyPoints tell me so. Tongue_out_wink

The people who want the list super updated are people who the list won't benefit; most other people don't actually care. Those people wanting it updated and current is not a bad thing, but when I think of it that way, it doesn't seem like an urgent matter.

Smile

I could also go into Yoga and Yin and Yang to explain further if you'd like, hahaha.
Dec. 10, 2011  2:11 AM
 
Devil May Care attitudes concerning the information we provide people who come here for information are sincerely unwelcome.
Dec. 10, 2011  2:15 AM
 
...
Agree with Hazel 10 x 10^7382738728192379172938% here.

Anyone else have thoughts about what I've said?

Dec. 10, 2011  2:58 AM
 
That was my non-jerk, trying to be polite way of saying "Why can't you just be patient and wait for Kei?" :\
Dec. 10, 2011  3:04 AM
 
Ah. I suspect being more direct in that instance would've given off a much less impression, haha. I apologize for the misunderstanding nonetheless.
Dec. 10, 2011  5:00 AM
 
Sorry, I realize not everyone likes efficiency.
Try to make your stance more obvious next time, like Hazel said.

If no one wants Arupaeo to really put his soul into this list, then why not have a monthly update (if need be of course)?

Every 15th of the month? Tongue_out
Dec. 10, 2011  6:42 AM
 
Boy, the one night I take off to go to a holiday party and I'm volunteered for stuff! Wink

I think that perhaps a little patience would be prudent here, as well as an appreciation for the fact that the top tier list isn't just a list - but a project that has a lot of history and requires a holistic appreciation for the entire metagame. At the moment, I can't think of anyone better suited for the task than Kei is - including me.
Dec. 17, 2011  5:55 PM
 
I'm going to be bold here and suggest maybe we switch the formatting of combos up, seeing as Track and Tip combination is rather more specific now than when the list was first made, mainly for stamina (though also for defense, considering BD145RS doesn't work particularly well).

We don't want people reading the list and then thinking thinks like BD145WD (normal mode) will win them tournaments. As much as there is an argument to be made for encouraging thought and not spoonfeeding people, I think it would be nice if we basically made it:

[Metal Wheel] [Clear Wheel] TH170/230D/BD145EDS/AD145WD/SD/D would be a better way to format it, I think, though I'd really like some more input there, especially on dividing them more clearly, as it is a bit messy.


Also, as Dan mentioned above, we should look into updating the Clear Wheel selections, as much as they are very hard to test, it's become generally accepted that Aquario and Cancer are the leading choices now, Bull having somewhat fallen in popularity.
Dec. 17, 2011  10:14 PM
 
I agree on the issue of format changing - it's been brought up before, actually, and was basically passed over without much discussion.

If Kei doesn't include it when he eventually gets around to fixing up the list, I will simply put it there myself.

As for Clear Wheels, I honestly fail to see how no one noticed Bull was so inferior for this long. When I got here everyone was all about Bull on EVERYTHING non-attack(except Basalt, which was all Kerbecs) - Aquario was underground as could be, and Cancer was just never even mentioned.

I suppose Bull isn't actually "inferior", so much as it "provides no other benefits except weight", while Cancer, Aquario, and Kerbecs all sling weight into very productive places, providing a much more noticable change than other CWs.
Dec. 18, 2011  2:56 PM
 
So, would we keep Bull on the list, or remove it? I don't really have a major opinion on this, although I would probably remove it from any Basalt Combinations, though again, as CW's are very difficult to test reliably, there is a decent counter-argument, even if that is mainly based on tradition.

One more thing, while I'm here, Duo. Do we have enough testing and tournament results to list it for Stamina/Defence/Balance*? It's been doing extremely well in testing, and is starting to appear in the Winning Combinations thread as well.

*Based on Kei's Draft, with CS combinations being moved to Balance. I definitely agree with that, FWIW.
Dec. 18, 2011  5:44 PM
 
I say we should still keep Bull on the list, yes, as it is still quite heavy and, at the very least, non-hindering in nature.

As for Duo... I think, yes, it should go up. It's getting a presence, now, and tests heavily support it being a very good part, at least for Stamina and CS/RDF-based combos. Also, since it's not been brought up yet, we should also make sure to specify the right mode for MWs with mode changes - S mode for Duo, Defense Mode for Death, Stamina Mode for Phantom, etc. I know it's common sense to us, but this list is more to the benefit of people without as much observational time/experience.
Dec. 18, 2011  10:01 PM
 
(Dec. 02, 2011  2:49 PM)Cye Kinomiya Wrote: Honestly, Lightning isn't supposed to be KOing defense type beyblades. That's what we have stamina types for. A lot of people don't support this way of thinking anymore.

If Vari is beating out defense types like that then there technically isn't anything that can stop it. The reason it isn't banned from play is because it's hard to use. Since, that means you are considering player skill in determining the tier list, then Lightning should stay because it's way more easy to use.

I love everything you said in this post. But as much as I want to agree that Lightning should stay for the reason you outlined, I've decided that it probably should be removed simply because of the weight of 4D Parts. Everything being released now is around ten grams (or more) heavier than Lightning, and I'm not so sure that it would fare as well against Phantom/Scythe Stamina combos as Blitz/VariAres would, despite their high recoil. Blitz, and in particular, VariAres, have a wider application competitively these days too.

Lightning is from a different era. In my opinion, it was more efficient as an Attack type in it's "era" than VariAres/Blitz are now in their "era", but nevertheless, we need to move on. As Hazel mentioned, we would be lying to people if we suggested that Lightning was equal in terms of pure Attack power to VariAres and Blitz. Unfortunately, we can't write on the tier list "Use Lightning if you can't master VariAres!" or "Use Lightning against such and such Stamina type because it has less of a chance of self-KOing than Blitz and VariAres do!".

(Dec. 17, 2011  5:55 PM)th!nk Wrote: We don't want people reading the list and then thinking thinks like BD145WD (normal mode) will win them tournaments. As much as there is an argument to be made for encouraging thought and not spoonfeeding people, I think it would be nice if we basically made it

This is my argument. We're not changing it. Tongue_out

It's been this way since the list was first created, and I see nothing wrong with the way it is formatted. Sure, it might be interpreted the wrong way, but do we really want a Blader who doesn't read the forums or test their Beyblades prior to a tournament to succeed?

(Dec. 17, 2011  10:14 PM)Hazel Wrote: As for Clear Wheels, I honestly fail to see how no one noticed Bull was so inferior for this long. When I got here everyone was all about Bull on EVERYTHING non-attack(except Basalt, which was all Kerbecs) - Aquario was underground as could be, and Cancer was just never even mentioned.

I suppose Bull isn't actually "inferior", so much as it "provides no other benefits except weight", while Cancer, Aquario, and Kerbecs all sling weight into very productive places, providing a much more noticable change than other CWs.

I've been using Aquario for as long as I can remember. My use was never based on any scientific testing because just by looking at it I could tell that it wouldn't hinder anything. Even when testing was done that "proved" Bull was superior, I stuck with it. But what has proven Bull to be a hindrance now? I realize that people have adopted Cancer and Kerbecs for a lot of things, but is there testing out there to prove their superiority?

(Dec. 18, 2011  2:56 PM)th!nk Wrote: One more thing, while I'm here, Duo. Do we have enough testing and tournament results to list it for Stamina/Defence/Balance*? It's been doing extremely well in testing, and is starting to appear in the Winning Combinations thread as well.

It's worth discussing, but there is no need to rush and add it to the list immediately. It's apparently been doing well, but it is still relatively new, not everyone has it, and therefore, not 'everyone' has been able to test or given a real opinion on it (like myself! I haven't even read much of the Duo thread to be honest lol. I should have it soon, though).

So, can we all agree on this update for now?

Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos Wrote:ATTACK
  • Metal Face Blitz Unicorno 90/100/CH120 RF/R2F/LRF
  • Metal Face VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF

DEFENSE
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS/MB
  • Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Death Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/CS

STAMINA
  • Phantom Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  • Basalt Bull/Aquario 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  • Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS

BALANCE
  • Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Aquario TH170CS

Should Basalt maybe be taken out of the Stamina section?

I do have one outstanding question, though:

(Nov. 25, 2011  9:32 PM)Kei Wrote: If Earth goes, I would say that Libra has to go as well. Although, after reading Uwik's post, I'm wondering, which has better Stamina: Earth, Libra, or Death?

I don't believe anyone ever answered me.
Dec. 18, 2011  10:25 PM
 
I'm fine with pulling Libra now, or with pulling it after Duo gets added later (using my crystal ball here).

Basalt on the other hand I think should get pulled now. It is clearly a tier below at least 2 other blades.
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