World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

"Build me a combo!" #2

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Jun. 21, 2014  8:51 PM
 
If Burn is better, then why suggest it. Serious

Thermal BGrin has only placed becuase of a lack of better options.
Jun. 21, 2014  9:44 PM
 
(Jun. 21, 2014  8:51 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: If Burn is better, then why suggest it. Serious

Thermal BGrin has only placed becuase of a lack of better options.

Destabilizer combo, with endurance and stamina.
Plus we don't know if he had Burn or Earth. (guy that asked about Thermal)
Jun. 21, 2014  9:54 PM
 
(Jun. 21, 2014  9:44 PM)Neo~ Wrote:
(Jun. 21, 2014  8:51 PM)TheWhiteTiger Wrote: If Burn is better, then why suggest it. Serious

Thermal BGrin has only placed becuase of a lack of better options.

Destabilizer combo, with endurance and stamina.
Plus we don't know if he had Burn or Earth. (guy that asked about Thermal)

You do know endurance and stamina are very similar, if not the same, right?

The combo that most fits his description would probably be MF-L Thermal Cygnus 85MF.
Jun. 21, 2014  10:21 PM
 
(Mar. 29, 2014  10:02 PM)Leone19 Wrote:
(Mar. 29, 2014  9:59 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:
(Mar. 29, 2014  9:22 PM)DRAGON KING Wrote: Thermal B: D really does well in CT, eh?
Surprisingly, yes. It came very close to beating Burn on a couple occasions.
Thermal B:D surprisingly defeated my Scythe Cyngus B:D and Meteo L-Drago F230 CF, which beat Akalajian's Thermal B:D at Year of the Bey. His main advantage, it seemed, was that his B:D was a bit worn and often moved to "attack"- it KO'd Meteo several times and OS'ed my Scythe B:D twice.

Thermal is not merely an inferior duplicate of Burn. It is its own Wheel, and can act very differently from Burn. IIRC the entire reason destabilizers existed in the old meta was to get rid of Earth combos, and from my experience Thermal still does that well. It also has good Stamina - not quite to the level of Burn, but still strong. As you can see above, it is also slightly Attack-y against taller things on certain setups (mostly via CW Attack due to exposed top), which is something Burn can do, but not quite as well due to its lack of innate Upper Attack/Upper Smash and higher profile, which somewhat obscures the CW near its base and could reduce Attack a little bit.

As I said, Burn is clearly the better choice for pure Stamina, but it is not necessarily going to directly outclass Thermal in every way. If you choose Thermal, you are also choosing a slightly different wheel where you trade off some pure Stamina for destabilization and Upper Attack. If you are interested in that kind of thing, or deem the trade-off to be worth it, then Thermal is a perfectly usable choice.

Thermal's reason for placing isn't simply because there were no better options; it placed because it is different. The entire reason it placed is because it isn't Burn; it was able to do unusual things that Burn would not have been capable of. However, since the trade-off between it and Burn means you lose Stamina, it predictably lost to Burn itself (though not by much), which makes sense because Thermal can't beat Burn's pure Stamina. But that's just how the trade-off works - you beat some things that you wouldn't have won against otherwise, but lose to things you may have beaten. And, as a matter of fact, if they had chosen Burn instead of Thermal, they would have had about a 50/50 chance against other Burn combos, and then most likely lost to the other two and not placed at all; Thermal was actually probably the better choice.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:22 PM
 
Or you could use Pisces; basically the same wheel.
They are different wheels. Unique, in fact.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:33 PM
 
(Jun. 21, 2014  10:21 PM)Cake Wrote: Thermal is not merely an inferior duplicate of Burn. It is its own Wheel, and can act very differently from Burn. IIRC the entire reason destabilizers existed in the old meta was to get rid of Earth combos, and from my experience Thermal still does that well. It also has good Stamina - not quite to the level of Burn, but still strong. As you can see above, it is also slightly Attack-y against taller things on certain setups (mostly via CW Attack due to exposed top), which is something Burn can do, but not quite as well due to its lack of innate Upper Attack/Upper Smash and higher profile, which somewhat obscures the CW near its base and could reduce Attack a little bit.
TBH it hardly differs from Burn at all... Burn is actually one of the many wheels that can allow for CW contact from above. But honestly it not going to do any better against an attack from above just becuase of how inferior its weight is.

(Jun. 21, 2014  10:21 PM)Cake Wrote: As I said, Burn is clearly the better choice for pure Stamina, but it is not necessarily going to directly outclass Thermal in every way. If you choose Thermal, you are also choosing a slightly different wheel where you trade off some pure Stamina for destabilization and Upper Attack. If you are interested in that kind of thing, or deem the trade-off to be worth it, then Thermal is a perfectly usable choice.
It's Destablization is fairly insignifant tbh. Upper Attakc doesn't exist in MFB, it's reffered to as Upper Smash. "Trade-off" isn't very useful either. Stamina isn't going to be able to go toe-to-toe with an attack type, nor is its slight destablization going to offer any use IMO. So going full stamina would be the best choice. Burn hardly has any Upper Smash anyways...

(Jun. 21, 2014  10:21 PM)Cake Wrote: Thermal's reason for placing isn't simply because there were no better options; it placed because it is different. The entire reason it placed is because it isn't Burn; it was able to do unusual things that Burn would not have been capable of. However, since the trade-off between it and Burn means you lose Stamina, it predictably lost to Burn itself (though not by much), which makes sense because Thermal can't beat Burn's pure Stamina. But that's just how the trade-off works - you beat some things that you wouldn't have won against otherwise, but lose to things you may have beaten. And, as a matter of fact, if they had chosen Burn instead of Thermal, they would have had about a 50/50 chance against other Burn combos, and then most likely lost to the other two and not placed at all; Thermal was actually probably the better choice.

I'm pretty sure the reason it was used because of a lack of Duo, or Scythe/Burn(LTD) so the user ised what ever was available to him. Actually, Thermal isn't going to be able to beat anything that Burn can't, given both its shape and size... They're both going to be inferior to attack and Burn(Having more stamina) would be the bets agaisnt Defense and Stamina.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:36 PM
 
Thermal is better, it has less recoil.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:42 PM
 
It doesn't have less recoil...
Jun. 21, 2014  11:50 PM
 
Have you tested it? Thermal is considerably rounder though, which lowers recoil.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:52 PM
 
There's a reason why no one uses it. Rounder doesn't mean less recoil, always. Take Scythe for example. Or Death.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:56 PM
 
(Jun. 21, 2014  11:52 PM)Echizen Wrote: There's a reason why no one uses it. Rounder doesn't mean less recoil, always. Take Scythe for example. Or Death.

Duo is round.
Jun. 21, 2014  11:59 PM
 
Yes. Doesn't mean it has low-recoil... Nor is Thermal any rounder than Burn or has less-recoil or more stamina.
Jun. 22, 2014  12:02 AM
 
But Duo has almost 0 recoil. Now that's a fact.
Jun. 22, 2014  12:11 AM
 
Generally roundness = less recoil. The smoother a beyblade's surface, the less recoil it will have. Death and Scythe are both low recoil... Scythe is top-tier Defense (though arguably that's more due to its PC frame) and Death was top-tier Defense for quite a while. If you are referring to Hasbro Metal Fury (as in Limited), they may be round on the edge, but the reason they have recoil is due to the large protrusions on the top, which will, of course, cause massive recoil (though excellent Attack potential). However, on the topic of Burn vs Thermal, I would also agree that Thermal is rounder than Burn. Though it does have the "gills" and two gaps, Burn has four breaks in its perimeter and an underside that is somewhat recoily; Thermal is pretty much completely smooth on top and bottom; the only significant interruptions are at the gaps, which aren't all that large anyways.
Jun. 22, 2014  12:16 AM
 
If we're talking Hasbro Scythe, then that has very little recoil. Round isn't exactly the word you're looking for, it's more along the lines of smooth. Death is round but has all those weird feathers and stuff in Attack Mode that cause recoil. Defense mode is ok but Duo is better. Earth, Hasbro Scythe, and Duo are all very smooth and more or less perfect circles, which is why they have low recoil.

Thermal is too aggressively designed to be as good as Earth or Burn on a pure Stamina setup, but not aggressively designed or heavy enough to pack a punch consistently. Burn is still better on 85/90MF because its outward weight distribution lets it OS more things. You could use it as a destabiliser but even in their "prime" destabilisers were never really that useful. It will usually just come down to "who gets the lucky uppercut when the WDs start precessing" type of thing.

EDIT: Beaten by Cake on the smoothness thing.
Jun. 22, 2014  12:21 AM
 
(Jun. 22, 2014  12:16 AM)Woumb@ Wrote: Thermal is too aggressively designed to be as good as Earth or Burn on a pure Stamina setup, but not aggressively designed or heavy enough to pack a punch consistently. Burn is still better on 85/90MF because its outward weight distribution lets it OS more things. You could use it as a destabiliser but even in their "prime" destabilisers were never really that useful. It will usually just come down to "who gets the lucky uppercut when the WDs start precessing" type of thing.

EDIT: Beaten by Cake on the smoothness thing.

Yeah while true, but we're talking about Thermal BGrin here, a Stamina combo. Yes, as I mentioned, Destabilizers aren't very useful, but I don't think Thermal will actually be very useful for destabalizimg.

(Jun. 22, 2014  12:11 AM)Cake Wrote: Generally roundness = less recoil. The smoother a beyblade's surface, the less recoil it will have. Death and Scythe are both low recoil... Scythe is top-tier Defense (though arguably that's more due to its PC frame) and Death was top-tier Defense for quite a while. If you are referring to Hasbro Metal Fury (as in Limited), they may be round on the edge, but the reason they have recoil is due to the large protrusions on the top, which will, of course, cause massive recoil (though excellent Attack potential). However, on the topic of Burn vs Thermal, I would also agree that Thermal is rounder than Burn. Though it does have the "gills" and two gaps, Burn has four breaks in its perimeter and an underside that is somewhat recoily; Thermal is pretty much completely smooth on top and bottom; the only significant interruptions are at the gaps, which aren't all that large anyways.

Scythe is not top-tier defense. And comapred to oher things, Death doesn't have as less recoil. There's a reason why it's outclassed. No I meant the 4D ones. It has those slopes though, making it not very tound, not having good weight distribution.
Jun. 22, 2014  12:35 AM
 
I can confirm ElementChris used Thermal becuase of lack of better Limited wheels and practice in Limited format.

Thermal BGrin worked well for him in that situation, but it certainly is not that much of a great combination. The Thermal wheel may have use in destabilization, but is certainly not a great choice for Stamina.


He also used a TT Light Launcher (with the larger winders) which gave him a slight advantage, with his powerful launch. His BGrin was aggressive, which is why it was able to KO Meteo, not to mention my Scythe was a bad mold.

The argument is getting a bit off topic, though.
Jun. 22, 2014  1:42 AM
 
(Jun. 22, 2014  12:21 AM)Echizen Wrote: Scythe is not top-tier defense. And comapred to oher things, Death doesn't have as less recoil. There's a reason why it's outclassed. No I meant the 4D ones. It has those slopes though, making it not very tound, not having good weight distribution.

Sorry, my bad, I thought Scythe Uranus 85RS was on the top-tier list. That's very strange, I thought it was on there Uncertain

I'm not sure what you mean by "slopes" and poor weight distro, since both Scythe and Death have good Stamina, and not really any slopes other than the heads on Death and the slight wavy pattern on Death in Defense mode.
Jun. 22, 2014  3:35 AM
 
I was talking about Thermal...
Jun. 22, 2014  6:27 PM
 
Ah, that makes more sense. But having the slopes and thicker metal in certain places won't affect weight distribution in terms of Stamina. What matters for Stamina is where the weight is radially- how close it is to the center of the Beyblade. Thermal is quite lightweight in the center due to its hollow shape underneath and holes - similar to Burn, actually. The outer edge is pretty much solid, as you can see underneath quite well. That gives it strong Stamina (though not as strong as Burn).

Someone made a similar claim about Flash in its different modes, saying that it would actually gain stamina when the weight is focused in one place, which is also wrong - focusing weight in one place will not improve or hurt Stamina, provided that the beyblade remains balanced on each side and the weight is not shifted closer or further from the center. (Link to the page)
Jun. 22, 2014  6:30 PM
 
(Jun. 22, 2014  6:27 PM)Cake Wrote: Ah, that makes more sense. But having the slopes and thicker metal in certain places won't affect weight distribution in terms of Stamina. What matters for Stamina is where the weight is radially- how close it is to the center of the Beyblade. Thermal is quite lightweight in the center due to its hollow shape underneath and holes - similar to Burn, actually. The outer edge is pretty much solid, as you can see underneath quite well. That gives it strong Stamina (though not as strong as Burn).
Actually it will. Why do you think all CW's used in Stamina combos are circular?
Jun. 22, 2014  7:42 PM
 
Cancer is an amazing CW for Stamina.
Jun. 22, 2014  10:25 PM
 
(Jun. 22, 2014  6:30 PM)Echizen Wrote:
(Jun. 22, 2014  6:27 PM)Cake Wrote: Ah, that makes more sense. But having the slopes and thicker metal in certain places won't affect weight distribution in terms of Stamina. What matters for Stamina is where the weight is radially- how close it is to the center of the Beyblade. Thermal is quite lightweight in the center due to its hollow shape underneath and holes - similar to Burn, actually. The outer edge is pretty much solid, as you can see underneath quite well. That gives it strong Stamina (though not as strong as Burn).
Actually it will. Why do you think all CW's used in Stamina combos are circular?

All CW's used in Stamina have outwards weight distribution and high weight. Neo~ pointed out a good example of a CW that does not have a necessarily "even" weight distribution (rotationally). On the "claws" of Cancer, the part is significantly thinner and therefore lighter, but is about twice as thick elsewhere. If having weight concentrated in one specific area were bad for Stamina, Cancer would not be a good part - everyone would probably be using Aquario on everything since it's pretty much uniform throughout.

The moment of inertia (the rotational quantity that defines the flywheel effect and therefore Stamina) for a cylindrical tube is represented by the formula I = 0.5m(r^2 + r^2), where the two r's represent the inner and outer diameter of the cylinder. We'll assume the center of the CW or Beyblade has much less weight as the rest, such as in the case of Phantom, or most Stamina parts for that matter. Note how the height of the cylinder does not matter - all that matters is that the cylinder has rotational symmetry (so as to be balanced while spinning around the axis of symmetry), its mass, and the inner and outer radii - where the mass is positioned relative to the axis of rotation.

EDIT: More math!

Say, in the case of something like Flash (I know we're talking about Thermal, but Flash demonstrates this better due to its mode change), we represent each piece of the MW with two point masses - think of it as two sets of weighted balls, where each set is connected by a thin rod which has no mass. Each point mass is the COG of one ball. For the first set of point masses, let's say each weighs approximately 12g and are 3cm apart. That means that the part weighs 24g. The second set of masses are also 3cm apart but only weigh 9g each. The second part weighs 18g, for a total mass, combined with the first one, of 42g.

The formula for the moment of inertia for two point masses is I = [(Mm)/(M+m)]*(x^2), where M and m are the masses of each point mass and x is the distance between the two. For the first part (24g), the moment of inertia is 54 g*cm^2. The second part (18g) has a moment of inertia of 40.5 g*cm^2.

Here's the important part - for any object rotating around a certain axis, that object's moment of inertia will be equal to the sum of the moments of inertia for each of its parts. So, in the model for Flash I just outlined, if Flash is in Attack mode, its moment of inertia is (54 g*cm^2 + 40.5 g*cm^2), or 94.5 g*cm^2. In Stamina mode, where one part is rotated 90 degrees (let's say the lighter one), the moment of inertia is still 94.5 g*cm^2. You have done nothing to change the moment of inertia for either one of its parts - you didn't change the mass of either one - and therefore the entire MW will not have changed its moment of inertia.

This applies to Thermal too - if we had two Thermal wheels, one which is the same as the real one with more concentrated weight, and a second imaginary one with more distributed weight around its perimeter, they would have the same moment of inertia and therefore the same Stamina potential.
Jun. 22, 2014  10:44 PM
 
Well, if you look ar the underside of Cancer, the two claw sections have a hollow area insode them, then you have the other part that is flatter, but isn't hollow, therefore creating pretty even weight throughout the Bey. Aquario and Cygnus are pretty good CW's as well, they have no bumps or edges hardly and are pretty round.

(Jun. 22, 2014  10:25 PM)Cake Wrote: The moment of inertia (the rotational quantity that defines the flywheel effect and therefore Stamina) for a cylindrical tube is represented by the formula I = 0.5m(r^2 + r^2), where the two r's represent the inner and outer diameter of the cylinder. We'll assume the center of the CW or Beyblade has much less weight as the rest, such as in the case of Phantom, or most Stamina parts for that matter. Note how the height of the cylinder does not matter - all that matters is that the cylinder has rotational symmetry (so as to be balanced while spinning around the axis of symmetry), its mass, and the inner and outer radii - where the mass is positioned relative to the axis of rotation.

The m represents...? While that is all true, Thermal doesn't abide by that rule hardly at all. The inner weight of one section of Thermal is a lot larger, therefore the inertia is thrown off since the mass is branched out, so to speak. Thermal doesn't really ahve much rotational symmetry all around either, as I mentioned above.
Jun. 22, 2014  11:13 PM
 
M is mass, sorry XD

I'm not sure what you mean by lack of rotational symmetry though; Thermal definitely is symmetrical. Rotate it 180 degrees and it will look pretty much exactly the same as it did before you spun it - like this:

[Image: 219-3.gif]

The big edit I made details moment of inertia out a whole lot more with a better example.

EDIT: Yeah, sorry, the first moment of inertia example I gave was pretty bad. The example in the edit is much better.
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