I agree with the OP, Screw should be tested. MF(bottom) has use as well.
Beyblade: Rebirth! Format testing
![[Image: OmegaNovaSigV2.png]](https://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb388/SDamonCronous/OmegaNovaSigV2.png)
(May. 06, 2011 11:23 PM)SajjanSV Wrote: Guy's, without 230 or BD145, doesn't Vulcan just kill everything again?
no, not really. vulcan does bad vs MF-H earth/libra GB145RS so there isn't much of a problem
(May. 07, 2011 12:47 AM)♥ Wrote: I tested MF Gravity Perseus 90RF and it was mauling MF-H Libra GB145CS. I never remembered Libra being this easy to KO, LOL.
i think this is because before libra was banned, attack types were not developed enough to take it down. now attack types are
I've already posted my thoughts on these. However, I've sorta changed my mind on libra (I think an initial ban would be good, if we find defense is too weak, we can reintroduce it.) Anyway, if we're not talking about the practicality of the banlist, Here Be My Thoughts (all $0.02 AUD)
Killer Beafowl isn't a threat, shouldn't be banned. EWD is easier to KO than WD, at least for me.
I'd need testing on MF-H Libra 85D/CS to be sure, but my Libra testing showed it wasn't really a huge threat (the only combo I was concerned about used BD145). That was when the metagame was at the stage we are lookign at re-creating, but with the addition of 230, although that was relatively recent.. RS prevents Libra CH120RF from dominating. I also would like to test or have someone test what how Libra CH120RF does against CS Defense. If it gets very low win rates there (as I expect, it already had enough trouble with WB, for example), then I'm not that worried. Gravity Perseus (MF GP (ATK) R145RF, eg) is murderous against libra, from my testing.
That said, it might limit the metagame, something I'm not sure I've considered fully...
However, by removing libra, we do get an attack type dominated metagame. While tourneys at the time did show that attack types still weren't that popular, more people are getting used to them now, I feel. I'd need time to see what happened with a libra-less metagame at tourneys to really make up my mind, but I'm suggesting an initial ban, due to the fact it'd prevent too many other parts (pre-hws Sagittario, for example, iirc). It's not super overpowered, but it will limit the metagame. There was a reason it was banned before, which was the same reason we are now looking at a second format. This is why I'm suggesting the initial ban. If MF LLD CH120RF Dominates (Or gravity. That thing was a beast), we can look at reintroducing libra. Anyone who disagrees that a metagame in which attack types do well against most things, should view the old "Attack Types, The True Balance" thread (IIRC, it's name was something like that). Do remember that Attack types are often considered harder to use in tourneys.
Basically, by banning libra, we risk attack types being overpowered, however, by unbanning it, we risk limiting the potential number of useful parts.
Screw Capricorn, well, the screw wheel definitely shouldn't be banned. Yeah, I know, I could be biased, but as I've always said, as long as vulcan, lightning and gravity are there, Screw will always be a second-tier option. You can look at the results in the thread, but yeah. It's good, but Vulcan is still the best right spin attack bey (pre-maximum). Either way, Lightning and Gravity (Gravity Perseus (ATK) SW145/R145RF or something. Beast Combo). If we don't ban libra, then there's no reason not to allow screw (though IMO there isn't anyway).
I'd like to see a re-test of MF Vulcan Horuseus/Byxis 85R2F against MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS and CS, for comparison to screw. I may do this myself, later on, when I have time. I'm not entirely convinced that RS is going to end it...
Metal flat, I dunno. I'd like to see it unbanned because it's a good counter to RS/RSF, if we aren't banning them. It gives us more versatility in attack. I don't think it's overpowered, it's stamina isn't as good as CS, even with spin stealing. So, I again wouldn't ban it. Main threat is probably MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF. There was some testing on D125, but it was killed on both by BasaltBD145. Worth looking into.
The other thing worth considering is that the idea of Low Height Defense Combos and RF Defence was only in it's infancy when 230 was introduced, which quickly killed the discussion (230: Big, Pink Babykiller). There is testing out there, and it's probably a fair answer to attack, anyway.
One more thing, my opinion on RS/RSF: Even if RS/RSF combo's murder right spin attack, given the practical limitations of the tips (No Staminaz), I don't think Rubber Defense is a huge issue in limiting the metagame, as using it at a tourney, well, to use it and expect to win, you'd need excellent bluffing or prediction skills. Considering the fact they're pretty useless against LLD, which will likely be the most popular attack combo, I'd not be that concerned. With libra around, it's a little more blurred, as libra does provide a decent chance against LLD. Still, meh.
Oh, and MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF will be beastly in this metagame, now that Perseus ATK is more widely available. Again, though, same practical issues as all attack types. That said, it pretty much murders almost everything Libra can do.
Other things, Maximum Meteor is still legal in this metagame, though with more attack types around, it's got more issues. Not so bad, methinks.
Those are my roughly 0.0215 USD, enjoy, don't go spending it all in one place now, kids. Again, I apologise for writing an essay. I just want to give all the relevant information that I can. Sorrrrrryyyyyy
Relevant link: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Libra-Re...ED-3RD-Feb
Mah Libruh Testin' Threed. With testing from numerous people.
Killer Beafowl isn't a threat, shouldn't be banned. EWD is easier to KO than WD, at least for me.
I'd need testing on MF-H Libra 85D/CS to be sure, but my Libra testing showed it wasn't really a huge threat (the only combo I was concerned about used BD145). That was when the metagame was at the stage we are lookign at re-creating, but with the addition of 230, although that was relatively recent.. RS prevents Libra CH120RF from dominating. I also would like to test or have someone test what how Libra CH120RF does against CS Defense. If it gets very low win rates there (as I expect, it already had enough trouble with WB, for example), then I'm not that worried. Gravity Perseus (MF GP (ATK) R145RF, eg) is murderous against libra, from my testing.
That said, it might limit the metagame, something I'm not sure I've considered fully...
However, by removing libra, we do get an attack type dominated metagame. While tourneys at the time did show that attack types still weren't that popular, more people are getting used to them now, I feel. I'd need time to see what happened with a libra-less metagame at tourneys to really make up my mind, but I'm suggesting an initial ban, due to the fact it'd prevent too many other parts (pre-hws Sagittario, for example, iirc). It's not super overpowered, but it will limit the metagame. There was a reason it was banned before, which was the same reason we are now looking at a second format. This is why I'm suggesting the initial ban. If MF LLD CH120RF Dominates (Or gravity. That thing was a beast), we can look at reintroducing libra. Anyone who disagrees that a metagame in which attack types do well against most things, should view the old "Attack Types, The True Balance" thread (IIRC, it's name was something like that). Do remember that Attack types are often considered harder to use in tourneys.
Basically, by banning libra, we risk attack types being overpowered, however, by unbanning it, we risk limiting the potential number of useful parts.
Screw Capricorn, well, the screw wheel definitely shouldn't be banned. Yeah, I know, I could be biased, but as I've always said, as long as vulcan, lightning and gravity are there, Screw will always be a second-tier option. You can look at the results in the thread, but yeah. It's good, but Vulcan is still the best right spin attack bey (pre-maximum). Either way, Lightning and Gravity (Gravity Perseus (ATK) SW145/R145RF or something. Beast Combo). If we don't ban libra, then there's no reason not to allow screw (though IMO there isn't anyway).
I'd like to see a re-test of MF Vulcan Horuseus/Byxis 85R2F against MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS and CS, for comparison to screw. I may do this myself, later on, when I have time. I'm not entirely convinced that RS is going to end it...
Metal flat, I dunno. I'd like to see it unbanned because it's a good counter to RS/RSF, if we aren't banning them. It gives us more versatility in attack. I don't think it's overpowered, it's stamina isn't as good as CS, even with spin stealing. So, I again wouldn't ban it. Main threat is probably MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF. There was some testing on D125, but it was killed on both by BasaltBD145. Worth looking into.
The other thing worth considering is that the idea of Low Height Defense Combos and RF Defence was only in it's infancy when 230 was introduced, which quickly killed the discussion (230: Big, Pink Babykiller). There is testing out there, and it's probably a fair answer to attack, anyway.
One more thing, my opinion on RS/RSF: Even if RS/RSF combo's murder right spin attack, given the practical limitations of the tips (No Staminaz), I don't think Rubber Defense is a huge issue in limiting the metagame, as using it at a tourney, well, to use it and expect to win, you'd need excellent bluffing or prediction skills. Considering the fact they're pretty useless against LLD, which will likely be the most popular attack combo, I'd not be that concerned. With libra around, it's a little more blurred, as libra does provide a decent chance against LLD. Still, meh.
Oh, and MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF will be beastly in this metagame, now that Perseus ATK is more widely available. Again, though, same practical issues as all attack types. That said, it pretty much murders almost everything Libra can do.
Other things, Maximum Meteor is still legal in this metagame, though with more attack types around, it's got more issues. Not so bad, methinks.
Those are my roughly 0.0215 USD, enjoy, don't go spending it all in one place now, kids. Again, I apologise for writing an essay. I just want to give all the relevant information that I can. Sorrrrrryyyyyy
Relevant link: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Libra-Re...ED-3RD-Feb
Mah Libruh Testin' Threed. With testing from numerous people.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
The tier list should include counters to Left spin attack like Earth 100RF with 'use against left spin only' in brackets
That's an "anti-meta" combo, apparently (though I personally disagree with that name/notion.) It'd probably be listed as a defence option, it works okay against right spin attack IIRC."
But as yet, we're still establishing what is and isn't in the format, so a tier list is a long way away.
Also, lol at no replies to my huge post. Sorry guys
But as yet, we're still establishing what is and isn't in the format, so a tier list is a long way away.
Also, lol at no replies to my huge post. Sorry guys
I know sometimes I write lengthy posts, but honestly th!nk - your posts are mostly interesting, but I don't really want to read that much. You need to work on your concision, seriously, haha.
(May. 09, 2011 5:56 AM)th!nk Wrote: I've already posted my thoughts on these. However, I've sorta changed my mind on libra (I think an initial ban would be good, if we find defense is too weak, we can reintroduce it.) Anyway, if we're not talking about the practicality of the banlist, Here Be My Thoughts (all $0.02 AUD)
Killer Beafowl isn't a threat, shouldn't be banned. EWD is easier to KO than WD, at least for me.
I'd need testing on MF-H Libra 85D/CS to be sure, but my Libra testing showed it wasn't really a huge threat (the only combo I was concerned about used BD145). That was when the metagame was at the stage we are lookign at re-creating, but with the addition of 230, although that was relatively recent.. RS prevents Libra CH120RF from dominating. I also would like to test or have someone test what how Libra CH120RF does against CS Defense. If it gets very low win rates there (as I expect, it already had enough trouble with WB, for example), then I'm not that worried. Gravity Perseus (MF GP (ATK) R145RF, eg) is murderous against libra, from my testing.
That said, it might limit the metagame, something I'm not sure I've considered fully...
However, by removing libra, we do get an attack type dominated metagame. While tourneys at the time did show that attack types still weren't that popular, more people are getting used to them now, I feel. I'd need time to see what happened with a libra-less metagame at tourneys to really make up my mind, but I'm suggesting an initial ban, due to the fact it'd prevent too many other parts (pre-hws Sagittario, for example, iirc). It's not super overpowered, but it will limit the metagame. There was a reason it was banned before, which was the same reason we are now looking at a second format. This is why I'm suggesting the initial ban. If MF LLD CH120RF Dominates (Or gravity. That thing was a beast), we can look at reintroducing libra. Anyone who disagrees that a metagame in which attack types do well against most things, should view the old "Attack Types, The True Balance" thread (IIRC, it's name was something like that). Do remember that Attack types are often considered harder to use in tourneys.
Basically, by banning libra, we risk attack types being overpowered, however, by unbanning it, we risk limiting the potential number of useful parts.
Screw Capricorn, well, the screw wheel definitely shouldn't be banned. Yeah, I know, I could be biased, but as I've always said, as long as vulcan, lightning and gravity are there, Screw will always be a second-tier option. You can look at the results in the thread, but yeah. It's good, but Vulcan is still the best right spin attack bey (pre-maximum). Either way, Lightning and Gravity (Gravity Perseus (ATK) SW145/R145RF or something. Beast Combo). If we don't ban libra, then there's no reason not to allow screw (though IMO there isn't anyway).
I'd like to see a re-test of MF Vulcan Horuseus/Byxis 85R2F against MF-H Earth Bull GB145RS and CS, for comparison to screw. I may do this myself, later on, when I have time. I'm not entirely convinced that RS is going to end it...
Metal flat, I dunno. I'd like to see it unbanned because it's a good counter to RS/RSF, if we aren't banning them. It gives us more versatility in attack. I don't think it's overpowered, it's stamina isn't as good as CS, even with spin stealing. So, I again wouldn't ban it. Main threat is probably MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF. There was some testing on D125, but it was killed on both by BasaltBD145. Worth looking into.
The other thing worth considering is that the idea of Low Height Defense Combos and RF Defence was only in it's infancy when 230 was introduced, which quickly killed the discussion (230: Big, Pink Babykiller). There is testing out there, and it's probably a fair answer to attack, anyway.
One more thing, my opinion on RS/RSF: Even if RS/RSF combo's murder right spin attack, given the practical limitations of the tips (No Staminaz), I don't think Rubber Defense is a huge issue in limiting the metagame, as using it at a tourney, well, to use it and expect to win, you'd need excellent bluffing or prediction skills. Considering the fact they're pretty useless against LLD, which will likely be the most popular attack combo, I'd not be that concerned. With libra around, it's a little more blurred, as libra does provide a decent chance against LLD. Still, meh.
Oh, and MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145RF will be beastly in this metagame, now that Perseus ATK is more widely available. Again, though, same practical issues as all attack types. That said, it pretty much murders almost everything Libra can do.
Meteor is still legal in this metagame, though with more attack types around, it's got more issues. Not so bad, methinks.
Other things, Maximum
Those are my roughly 0.0215 USD, enjoy, don't go spending it all in one place now, kids. Again, I apologise for writing an essay. I just want to give all the relevant information that I can. Sorrrrrryyyyyy
Relevant link: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Libra-Re...ED-3RD-Feb
Mah Libruh Testin' Threed. With testing from numerous people.
So D only works on Libra, I guess, but Killer Beafowl is undoubtedly the worst in the MS. Screw in my small opinion, has potential. But we're talking a no-Basalt metagame here. Without Basalt, attack types will rule, so we cannot ban Libra because attack types will dominate without it. MF Libra CH120RF is a good, but limited attack, because of Vulcan. But rubber-based defense is the best defense. Lightning Tank overpowers Maximum Meteor in terms of attack. MF should be unbanned, I think the only problem with it is MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK) CH120MF.
I bet TT is going to release even more powerful things in the future, so...
Gee, it's a hard thing trying to recreate/ make up a metagame
Heart, yeah, I'm working on it. I write more when I'm short on time, because then I have less time to revise it. Also, word limits are my nemesis. But yeah, I'll make a concerted effort to at least include a concise version of my posts.
With Libra, I'm placing broadness of viable parts in this case above a POTENTIAL imbalance. If that Imbalance becomes real, then that is obviously a priority, but unless we're sure it'll occur (the only real way to know that is by running tourneys with libra banned), I'd lean towards the original aim of a broad range of viable parts as a priority.
And that gravity combo is not really any more powerful than MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145/SD145RF, or MF LLD CH120RF. Sure, it outspins RS/RSF, but IIRC, the only reason I used it was to counter a couple of early maximum series combos, as RS/RSF generally doesn't do well against GP R145RF anyway. I just don't see any reason to ban it.
Screw, well, as I've said, no better than vulcan, but re-testing needs to be done of vulcan vs Earth/Libra GB145RS/CS to properly prove that. I might do that later, though I cannot do libra as it doesn't work with my GB145 (it has a crack, so libra doesn't sit evenly. Earth is fine, though, and I think Earth will demonstrate this perfectly well.
And, Making a Metagame/Format is easy. Balancing it and making it fun is another thing
Notes on Libra CH120RF, if you want to read them (Click to View)
With Libra, I'm placing broadness of viable parts in this case above a POTENTIAL imbalance. If that Imbalance becomes real, then that is obviously a priority, but unless we're sure it'll occur (the only real way to know that is by running tourneys with libra banned), I'd lean towards the original aim of a broad range of viable parts as a priority.
And that gravity combo is not really any more powerful than MF Gravity Perseus (ATK) R145/SD145RF, or MF LLD CH120RF. Sure, it outspins RS/RSF, but IIRC, the only reason I used it was to counter a couple of early maximum series combos, as RS/RSF generally doesn't do well against GP R145RF anyway. I just don't see any reason to ban it.
Screw, well, as I've said, no better than vulcan, but re-testing needs to be done of vulcan vs Earth/Libra GB145RS/CS to properly prove that. I might do that later, though I cannot do libra as it doesn't work with my GB145 (it has a crack, so libra doesn't sit evenly. Earth is fine, though, and I think Earth will demonstrate this perfectly well.
And, Making a Metagame/Format is easy. Balancing it and making it fun is another thing
Shouldn't we work on the assumption that Vulcan will be banned? I don't know if I'm straying into dangerous territory here, but I would say it is a Wheel which is superior to its peers by a considerable margin. I would say the same for Lightning, Meteo and assumedly, LDD?
You're ultimately forgetting Beat..
I've always assumed vulcan wouldn't be banned. Nor LLD, or Perseus, both of which, given a metagame with RS/RSF, I consider far more potent threats. While vulcan has a truckload of smash, it's still stuck in right spin, remember. To be honest, RS/RSF are more significant than Vulcan, as is Libra, IMO.
Lightning has generally always been regarded as the Ultimate attack type, and I agree with this.
Remember, we aren't banning things based on superiority, we're banning them based on their destabilisation or limitation of the metagame/format. While what we consider fair on defence (eg Dark or Grand something not being that useful) is a rather contentious matter, I'd think we'd stick to the traditional notions of Earth and Libra being the main defence wheels, as they so heavily outclass the other options themselves, and removing them obviously ruins the metagame.
Meanwhile, something like Leone is useable in a metagame, even if Gravity is a better option. It can still win. As can Sagittario, IIRC, if Libra isn't there. As is Pegasis, even if it's outclassed by Gravity, Lightning, Vulcan, etc etc etc.
Keeping Vulcan in doesn't really damage the metagame, other than defense being somewhat weaker, but even then, I recall against RS/RSF vulcan not doing well. I REALLY have to test that. After dinner, I'll try and do it, and then we can make a more informed decision about Vulcan (and also screw). Probably against Earth GB145RS and CS. As I said, until I get a new GB145, I can't test libruh.
But yeah, we'd end up removing Vulcan, Lightning, Gravity, probably Meteo, and maybe more, ignoring the fact that attack was never popular when the metagame was like what we're describing.
It is probably worth noting though, that I have a tendency to err on the attack side of things. Again, check the "Attack- The true balance type" or something like that thread for part of why I feel that this is justified. And do remember, that despite vulcan and Lightning getting such High win rates in testing, they often weren't tourney winning combos (again, this is from memory).
Lightning has generally always been regarded as the Ultimate attack type, and I agree with this.
Remember, we aren't banning things based on superiority, we're banning them based on their destabilisation or limitation of the metagame/format. While what we consider fair on defence (eg Dark or Grand something not being that useful) is a rather contentious matter, I'd think we'd stick to the traditional notions of Earth and Libra being the main defence wheels, as they so heavily outclass the other options themselves, and removing them obviously ruins the metagame.
Meanwhile, something like Leone is useable in a metagame, even if Gravity is a better option. It can still win. As can Sagittario, IIRC, if Libra isn't there. As is Pegasis, even if it's outclassed by Gravity, Lightning, Vulcan, etc etc etc.
Keeping Vulcan in doesn't really damage the metagame, other than defense being somewhat weaker, but even then, I recall against RS/RSF vulcan not doing well. I REALLY have to test that. After dinner, I'll try and do it, and then we can make a more informed decision about Vulcan (and also screw). Probably against Earth GB145RS and CS. As I said, until I get a new GB145, I can't test libruh.
But yeah, we'd end up removing Vulcan, Lightning, Gravity, probably Meteo, and maybe more, ignoring the fact that attack was never popular when the metagame was like what we're describing.
It is probably worth noting though, that I have a tendency to err on the attack side of things. Again, check the "Attack- The true balance type" or something like that thread for part of why I feel that this is justified. And do remember, that despite vulcan and Lightning getting such High win rates in testing, they often weren't tourney winning combos (again, this is from memory).
I am finding a lot of TT's releases recently are doing good. Lightning IS the ultimate attack wheel. By banning those wheels you mentioned means that Screw will be the beast without those. But if we ban something, we will have to ban the rest. By the rate you're going, we would have to use Storm for attack... Because if you ban something something else will rule. Well that's the way I see it..
Or, nothing will rule and we'll have a huge pile of suck. Though, screw wouldn't be beast, it's still only 60-75% VS Earth IIRC. That's not so great, comparitively. Still, I guess that IS against the top defence combo we'll have if we ban libra...
That said, thankyou for kinda summarising what I meant to get at
Basically, what I'm saying is why not have the most difficult type to master and use at tourneys be the most powerful one, if we're going to end up with a dominant force (which we will, almost inevitably).
You can check my libra thread if you need some more proof that Gravity and LLD are more useful or powerful than vulcan, too
EDIT: I'm personally not entirely sure on libra, which is why I don't want to pre-judge it without checking if the metagame is stable without it first.
Oh, and testing will be up later tonight or tomorrow, my time, as my laptop's broken, I'm on my mum's, and I've got to give it back soon.
That said, thankyou for kinda summarising what I meant to get at
Basically, what I'm saying is why not have the most difficult type to master and use at tourneys be the most powerful one, if we're going to end up with a dominant force (which we will, almost inevitably).
You can check my libra thread if you need some more proof that Gravity and LLD are more useful or powerful than vulcan, too
EDIT: I'm personally not entirely sure on libra, which is why I don't want to pre-judge it without checking if the metagame is stable without it first.
Oh, and testing will be up later tonight or tomorrow, my time, as my laptop's broken, I'm on my mum's, and I've got to give it back soon.
It's harder with Right spin attack types though, I believe these win rates are fine especially since they are conducted in a controlled environment. In a tournament situation it becomes quite different.
EDIT: I meant right spin attack types really only have that small window of opportunity, whereas left spin attackers also have a chance of spin steal and destabilisation.
Moreover, these results are also taken from those who are quite experienced(usually) so the win rates drop further.
For instance, I believe it was machipz who couldn't KO MF Earth Bull 230RSF using MF Gravity Perseus R145RF. Usually this shouldn't be too difficult, but nerves are a factor, as well as many other pressures that build up on the day.
I experienced it first hand.
If all is equal, yet it takes skill to achieve that equality with attack types, who would use them? I'd rather a metagame that relies on the skill of the blader to produce high win rates, rather than reliance on easy to use combos.
I don't know about other people, but I'd rather attack types have dominance over our metagame than any other type.
EDIT: I meant right spin attack types really only have that small window of opportunity, whereas left spin attackers also have a chance of spin steal and destabilisation.
Moreover, these results are also taken from those who are quite experienced(usually) so the win rates drop further.
For instance, I believe it was machipz who couldn't KO MF Earth Bull 230RSF using MF Gravity Perseus R145RF. Usually this shouldn't be too difficult, but nerves are a factor, as well as many other pressures that build up on the day.
I experienced it first hand.
If all is equal, yet it takes skill to achieve that equality with attack types, who would use them? I'd rather a metagame that relies on the skill of the blader to produce high win rates, rather than reliance on easy to use combos.
I don't know about other people, but I'd rather attack types have dominance over our metagame than any other type.
![[Image: Raykon%20-%20Signature2.png]](https://dmsss.webs.com/Raykon%20-%20Signature2.png)
(May. 09, 2011 1:38 PM)momiji manju Wrote: I'd rather a metagame that relies on the skill of the blader to produce high win rates, rather than reliance on easy to use combos.
I don't know about other people, but I'd rather attack types have dominance over our metagame than any other type.
i agree with that 110%
here is the thing with having to metagames is that it isn't really enough
when you have defence combos like MF-H libra/earth GB145RS, good right spin attackers such as saggitario, quetzalcoatl, and leone will have no use at all
that is (one of the reasons) why i think there should also be a a third tier with combos like MF-H earth bull C145/ED145/GB145CS/WB
and for stamina, instead of earth/burn, you use flame/thermal
some more $0.02 of mine
Meh, I'd not go that far yet, it's best we start small. I'm not so sure that Leone would have no chance, I've jost ordered one, so I'll know soon, but I'm quite sure it was still considered viable until the release of Basalt, at least in Italy, on H145RF (With a metal face). Also, I would leave Earth/Burn in the third tier for stamina. Really, anything can handle them just fine. Maybe preventing LTSC's may be a better idea. AAANYWAY, This isn't really the place for that. We should just focus on this second metagame right now, as at least until people are used to the idea of multiple metagames, introducing a third would be far too confusing for newbies
Momiji, as you've probably already noticed, I agree with you completely
Momiji, as you've probably already noticed, I agree with you completely
(May. 09, 2011 2:33 PM)th!nk Wrote: I'm not so sure that Leone would have no chance, I've jost ordered one, so I'll know soon, but I'm quite sure it was still considered viable until the release of Basalt, at least in Italy, on H145RF (With a metal face). Also, I would leave Earth/Burn in the third tier for stamina. Really, anything can handle them just fine. Maybe preventing LTSC's may be a better idea. AAANYWAY, This isn't really the place for that. We should just focus on this second metagame right now, as at least until people are used to the idea of multiple metagames, introducing a third would be far too confusing for newbies
Momiji, as you've probably already noticed, I agree with you completely
well vulcan does bad VS rubber sharp and IIRC vulcan>leone, so...
from tests i have seen burn and earth beat flame and thermal for stamina, by letting earth and burn be used flame and thermal will be stuck in destabilizer
but sure, stay on this one, if it goes well try to expand
Leone as a recoil attacker? I never actually thought of testing that. Destabilisers can play big parts so we need to test them. I can't since I don't have BB-10.
leone was viable before perseus here in italy.
immediately after perseus, it became a "borderline" choice with low tracks, but it's not the best choice you have,
plus it's kinda hard to give it the right shoot to generate its recoil, so yeah, not the best choice, but if you're skilled and want to have fun, then it's ok.)
Few days ago we had a non official tourney(with non wbo users but i taught them how to shoot months ago =) ) with this alternative format.
rules:
- parts released before the maximum series
Results:
1st: Yami(hehe=P) MF Gravity Perseus 90 RF / MF-H Flame Virgo DF145 HF/S
2nd: IbeTheTank MF-H Libra 90/GB145 RS / MF Earth Virgo 90 RF
3rd: Luna89 MF Vulcan Bull 85 RF / MF Gemios 90 RF
4th: Luxio92 MF Lightning L Drago 85 RF/LRF / MF Rock Acquario 90 RF
5th: Sanchòm MF-H Libra GB145 RS / Earth Libra W105 SD
6th: The Guilty Hyper Gemios 85 R2F / MF Quetzalcoatl 90 RF(lol, skill over parts)
7th: OVKT Lightning L Drago 85 R2F / MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF
8th: Tesk3ou Vulcan Horuseus 85 RF / MF-H Leo 90 RF
immediately after perseus, it became a "borderline" choice with low tracks, but it's not the best choice you have,
plus it's kinda hard to give it the right shoot to generate its recoil, so yeah, not the best choice, but if you're skilled and want to have fun, then it's ok.)
Few days ago we had a non official tourney(with non wbo users but i taught them how to shoot months ago =) ) with this alternative format.
rules:
- parts released before the maximum series
Results:
1st: Yami(hehe=P) MF Gravity Perseus 90 RF / MF-H Flame Virgo DF145 HF/S
2nd: IbeTheTank MF-H Libra 90/GB145 RS / MF Earth Virgo 90 RF
3rd: Luna89 MF Vulcan Bull 85 RF / MF Gemios 90 RF
4th: Luxio92 MF Lightning L Drago 85 RF/LRF / MF Rock Acquario 90 RF
5th: Sanchòm MF-H Libra GB145 RS / Earth Libra W105 SD
6th: The Guilty Hyper Gemios 85 R2F / MF Quetzalcoatl 90 RF(lol, skill over parts)
7th: OVKT Lightning L Drago 85 R2F / MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF
8th: Tesk3ou Vulcan Horuseus 85 RF / MF-H Leo 90 RF
LLD still would dominate if this was the case unless use of screw/basalt/Libra...
that will create a big problem
and with hell and 230 out of the situation Stamina and defense would be left struggling
meaning the current LLD will be as formidable as it was...
Vulcan is always seen as a beast
and Gravity is viable....
Done well Yami!
that will create a big problem
and with hell and 230 out of the situation Stamina and defense would be left struggling
meaning the current LLD will be as formidable as it was...
(May. 10, 2011 2:48 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: leone was viable before perseus here in italy.what about LRF and XF?
immediately after perseus, it became a "borderline" choice with low tracks, but it's not the best choice you have,
plus it's kinda hard to give it the right shoot to generate its recoil, so yeah, not the best choice, but if you're skilled and want to have fun, then it's ok.)
Few days ago we had a non official tourney(with non wbo users but i taught them how to shoot months ago =) ) with this alternative format.
rules:
- parts released before the maximum series
Results:
1st: Yami(hehe=P) MF Gravity Perseus 90 RF / MF-H Flame Virgo DF145 HF/S
2nd: IbeTheTank MF-H Libra 90/GB145 RS / MF Earth Virgo 90 RF
3rd: Luna89 MF Vulcan Bull 85 RF / MF Gemios 90 RF
4th: Luxio92 MF Lightning L Drago 85 RF/LRF / MF Rock Acquario 90 RF
5th: Sanchòm MF-H Libra GB145 RS / Earth Libra W105 SD
6th: The Guilty Hyper Gemios 85 R2F / MF Quetzalcoatl 90 RF(lol, skill over parts)
7th: OVKT Lightning L Drago 85 R2F / MF Gravity Perseus R145 RF
8th: Tesk3ou Vulcan Horuseus 85 RF / MF-H Leo 90 RF
Vulcan is always seen as a beast
and Gravity is viable....
Done well Yami!
Wonder why I never saw this thread...
Nile-Ah, Its true that Lightning will become too powerful. But, as we all know that the defense combos we have these days, are deadly, and left spin attack can easily counter them, while right spin attack has some problems. In this situation, the powerful defense combos will have just a few left spin opponents, namely Gravity and Meteo. Gravity is too versatile, which is great. Meteo on the other hand, has good defense too. This will be a big change in the meta-game, as now, there will not be many dominant beys.
From my point of view, Lightning can be banned, as we have those Meteo, Gravity, Screw and Vulcan. Then again, we realize, that Lightning just dominated, and caused no harm to other parts, the way Basalt did. In Lightning's presence, Vulcan, Meteo, Screw and Gravity, were still considered highly useful and almost top tier. We are having a second format because wheels like Basalt rendered many other older wheels useless, which Lightning hasn't done. Lightning should not be banned in my opinion, even though it has its reasons for getting banned.
Nile-Ah, Its true that Lightning will become too powerful. But, as we all know that the defense combos we have these days, are deadly, and left spin attack can easily counter them, while right spin attack has some problems. In this situation, the powerful defense combos will have just a few left spin opponents, namely Gravity and Meteo. Gravity is too versatile, which is great. Meteo on the other hand, has good defense too. This will be a big change in the meta-game, as now, there will not be many dominant beys.
From my point of view, Lightning can be banned, as we have those Meteo, Gravity, Screw and Vulcan. Then again, we realize, that Lightning just dominated, and caused no harm to other parts, the way Basalt did. In Lightning's presence, Vulcan, Meteo, Screw and Gravity, were still considered highly useful and almost top tier. We are having a second format because wheels like Basalt rendered many other older wheels useless, which Lightning hasn't done. Lightning should not be banned in my opinion, even though it has its reasons for getting banned.
![[Image: janstarblastsignature.jpg]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-imUVk9PErhw/Tb5jNvGKumI/AAAAAAAAAFw/8iSsYhW7vEw/janstarblastsignature.jpg)
Lightning can be countered by Meteo and Gravity
![[Image: aquilasig.png]](https://img812.imageshack.us/f/aquilasig.png)
Well I'll give my personal opinion on Lightning:
A very good part, but not too strong to be banned in this format.
I mean, if you're playing a RS defense custom, you lose against gravity, meteo and lightning by default.
It's like reading the terms of service, "By using this combo i accept to lose against left spin attackers"
many LLD lost to Gravity with RS, which is a pretty good combination
(right+left spin defense, KOing staminas with gravity recoil (right spin is better) and resisting to it with RS
in attack vs attack, knowing how to play against a Lightning is pretty much a problem for lld users,
especially when lld is against a low profile metal wheel (gravity, rock, leone, and we don't know exactly why, but gemios did pretty good too xD)
@ nile: luxio was using LRF. i think no one was using XF because it doesn't do that well against an aggressively shot RF/R2F/LRF
A very good part, but not too strong to be banned in this format.
I mean, if you're playing a RS defense custom, you lose against gravity, meteo and lightning by default.
It's like reading the terms of service, "By using this combo i accept to lose against left spin attackers"
many LLD lost to Gravity with RS, which is a pretty good combination
(right+left spin defense, KOing staminas with gravity recoil (right spin is better) and resisting to it with RS
in attack vs attack, knowing how to play against a Lightning is pretty much a problem for lld users,
especially when lld is against a low profile metal wheel (gravity, rock, leone, and we don't know exactly why, but gemios did pretty good too xD)
@ nile: luxio was using LRF. i think no one was using XF because it doesn't do that well against an aggressively shot RF/R2F/LRF
I agree. MF LLD CH120RF is overpowered.