Beyblade: Rebirth! Format testing
(May. 10, 2011 10:40 AM)Yamislayer Wrote: Well I'll give my personal opinion on Lightning:
A very good part, but not too strong to be banned in this format.
EXACTLY! That's what I am saying! Why are we making a new format? Because of some parts that are too overpowered, and render many other 'useful' parts useless. Basalt caused havoc around, as even the most formidable beys released before it, were forced to bow in front of it. Lightning didn't do that. Yes, meteo and gravity are better than Lightning, but we have to accept that they are new parts, and most new beys are released to counter the older strong parts. After all, MLD is LLD's evolution! And according to the theory of evolution in this world, evolved things are always better than its previous forms. Yes, we must not consider this theory in beyblade, as many beys contradict this statement.
GaleForce- Please dude, that's just not quite true. Its powerful, really powerful, but is not 'overpowered'.
![[Image: janstarblastsignature.jpg]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-imUVk9PErhw/Tb5jNvGKumI/AAAAAAAAAFw/8iSsYhW7vEw/janstarblastsignature.jpg)
i agree, lightning is not overpowered, just powerful
i own it and i don't even use it at all!
here are the parts/combos that i think are overpowered
parts:
basalt
hell
BD145
230
combos:
MF-H basalt BD145CS/MB
MF-H basalt/hell BD145CS
MF-H hell BD145WD/CS
lightning ldrago BD145LRF
as you can see, lightning, MF-H, LRF, CS, WD, and MB are not at all overpowered parts. but when used in specific combos they become overpowered
i own it and i don't even use it at all!
here are the parts/combos that i think are overpowered
parts:
basalt
hell
BD145
230
combos:
MF-H basalt BD145CS/MB
MF-H basalt/hell BD145CS
MF-H hell BD145WD/CS
lightning ldrago BD145LRF
as you can see, lightning, MF-H, LRF, CS, WD, and MB are not at all overpowered parts. but when used in specific combos they become overpowered
Very true that, wolfblade. Yes, so first get rid of Basalt and Hell, BD145 and 230. After that, there are hardly any overpowered parts at all! First thing, we must test whether Lightning becomes powerful or not, after Basalt is banned. Yes, there are Meteo, Gravity, Earth, etc. which can defeat Lightning, the latter, can at least 'withstand' its attacks. So, we need tests about Lightning.
well from the tests i have seen, gravity can beat all other attackers
i think meteo with RS could beat it
personally lightning isn't that powerful, meteo almost gets the same results, and lightning is stuck on low-mid height track (excluding BD145) were gravity is good on all heights (except maybe 230
i think meteo with RS could beat it
personally lightning isn't that powerful, meteo almost gets the same results, and lightning is stuck on low-mid height track (excluding BD145) were gravity is good on all heights (except maybe 230
Gravity is (in my opinion) the best wheel in this format, but still, it requires skill to use.
at 90 height with a worn RF can outspin a lot of opponents.
Libra is a Check to gravity cause it does not get outspinned and resist hits very well, especially while talking about RF VS RF matchup.
Check that can be beaten if you're actually better than your opponent anyway.
Still, its advantages are just slightly over other combos, so skill is what matters.
at 90 height with a worn RF can outspin a lot of opponents.
Libra is a Check to gravity cause it does not get outspinned and resist hits very well, especially while talking about RF VS RF matchup.
Check that can be beaten if you're actually better than your opponent anyway.
Still, its advantages are just slightly over other combos, so skill is what matters.
Exactly. I prefer gravity, with perseus atk, over lightning, and it's heavy enough to cause lightning issues. Lightning isn't really overpowered.
Oh, and I want to remind everyone not counting 4d beys in their overpowered lists that they are generally overpowered, basalt, bd145, 230, and maybe hell are the only reason fangs ridiculous smash, beats ridiculous power, and ldd's awesome don't always dominate. BBP, I'm less sure about, w2d, 130, f: d and f:s I'm unsure about, but we have to remember simplicity. If, or when, people all understand how this format works, then we might, maybe, be able to look at a more complex list.
Yami, do you have any opinion on screw and mf? I've enjoyed your opinions so far, so yeah.
Oh, and I want to remind everyone not counting 4d beys in their overpowered lists that they are generally overpowered, basalt, bd145, 230, and maybe hell are the only reason fangs ridiculous smash, beats ridiculous power, and ldd's awesome don't always dominate. BBP, I'm less sure about, w2d, 130, f: d and f:s I'm unsure about, but we have to remember simplicity. If, or when, people all understand how this format works, then we might, maybe, be able to look at a more complex list.
Yami, do you have any opinion on screw and mf? I've enjoyed your opinions so far, so yeah.
![[Image: UwZsp7A.png]](https://i.imgur.com/UwZsp7A.png)
Well, to be honest i have a screw wheel, but i've not tested it so much, still i think it has a lot potential.
MF didn't seem so good to me, it's peculiarity is that it's tall bottom, and a metal one, but i didn't see it as a good piece.
I may be completely wrong anyway, didn't test those properly
MF didn't seem so good to me, it's peculiarity is that it's tall bottom, and a metal one, but i didn't see it as a good piece.
I may be completely wrong anyway, didn't test those properly
Fair enough. My thoughts are well documented. I like screw, but vulcan Is a better wheel, as are most, if not all, left spin wheels. Screw IS better than ray IMO. But yeah. It's definitely not overpowered, the question is whether it's worth unbanning, for simplicity. I'd obviously love it unbanned, but it's really for regular tourney holders to decide.
MF, well, it can be pretty handy, but if you can't ko a cs bey, you're gonna be outspun. It's got passable defence for an attack bottom (more than a number of plastic flat bottoms, if not all), lowering recoil ko's. Main tgreat IMO, is my longtime favourite mf/-h gravity perseus (atk) ch120mf (counter mode), but it'd be no stronger than, say, mf lld ch120rf. Coming up against lld, an experienced user may survive to outspin, but yeah.
Anyway, I need to do that testing, tge vulcan tests I promised should be done tomorrow. Sorry they're late, I haven't been at home the last two days. Thought I'd get them done but ran oyt of time. Aaanyway, yeah.
Hope you don't mind me putting my 2c in again, I appreciate your reply
MF, well, it can be pretty handy, but if you can't ko a cs bey, you're gonna be outspun. It's got passable defence for an attack bottom (more than a number of plastic flat bottoms, if not all), lowering recoil ko's. Main tgreat IMO, is my longtime favourite mf/-h gravity perseus (atk) ch120mf (counter mode), but it'd be no stronger than, say, mf lld ch120rf. Coming up against lld, an experienced user may survive to outspin, but yeah.
Anyway, I need to do that testing, tge vulcan tests I promised should be done tomorrow. Sorry they're late, I haven't been at home the last two days. Thought I'd get them done but ran oyt of time. Aaanyway, yeah.
Hope you don't mind me putting my 2c in again, I appreciate your reply
Put Lightning in a certain combo (LT) and demolishes everything even MF-h Basalt BD145MB. Execpt Left spin Defense, which is killed be right spin attack.
Screw, I will never understand why they banned it. Vulcan, and Beat are a lot more powerful.
I have a idea. We could ban new releases until we test them and find out if they are overpowered or too powerful. If it isn't too powerful, we could unban it and let it be used.
Screw, I will never understand why they banned it. Vulcan, and Beat are a lot more powerful.
I have a idea. We could ban new releases until we test them and find out if they are overpowered or too powerful. If it isn't too powerful, we could unban it and let it be used.
![[Image: OmegaNovaSigV2.png]](https://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb388/SDamonCronous/OmegaNovaSigV2.png)
Except, lt relies on bd145 for effectiveness. Without bd145, it's not as big a deal. Therefore, not ban worthy on those grounds.
Screw is only a possible ban because it's maximum series, and banning all maximum series onward beys is easier for newbies to understand.
And yes, I'd imagine that's how we'd deal with new parts, yami mentioned it in the first post on this second format idea (in "do we need a second format"). You should read that original post carefully, as should everyone, it covers a lot of issues people keep bringing up.
Screw is only a possible ban because it's maximum series, and banning all maximum series onward beys is easier for newbies to understand.
And yes, I'd imagine that's how we'd deal with new parts, yami mentioned it in the first post on this second format idea (in "do we need a second format"). You should read that original post carefully, as should everyone, it covers a lot of issues people keep bringing up.
Right, so without banning LLD we would have to ban BD145..
We're already banning bd145. That is certain.
(May. 12, 2011 6:41 AM)GaleForce Wrote: Right, so without banning LLD we would have to ban BD145..
Dude, most maximum series parts, especially the top tier ones related t o Kerbecs and Basalt, are gonna be banned. Well, its really unfair to ban LLD, just because its formidable as Lightning Tank. It would be like putting an end to fire, just because it can cause havoc when it comes in contact with something explosive.
IMO, I will always say that, we must change the format based on generations.
Pre HWS, MFB1, MFB2, 4D. After this, we will ban parts based on parts, if its really required. Pre HWS and MFB2 generations will be plagued by Libra and the max series respectively. MFB1 will kinda have no problems. 4D, I really do not know. I know its not gonna happen, but I really feel, this will make the highest amount of difference.
Screw IMO, is not an overpowered part, that you ban it....
Personally, I'd lump maximum series with 4D, or make it it's own mini-series, as that's where things became really problematic. But yeah, too much, and it's somewhat unnecessary. Too many formats might divide bladers, leaving too few playing particular, or all, formats to host a tourney, at least in less blader filled areas.
Anyway, I'm afraid my vulcan (and screw, maybe) tests must be postponed till tomorrow. Turns out I had a really busy day today, and I'm off to work in 20 minutes, then, when I get back, everyone will be sleeping, so I can't test. I'm sure no-one's really waiting to much on them, but yeah.
I'll need to do some pre-testing work with screw to figure out whether to use 85 or 90 (Unless people want me to specifically use 85, for consistency with vulcan?). I'll probably just use RF, as I don't want to over-use my R2F. So, yeah.
But yeah, too much, and it's somewhat unnecessary. Too many formats might divide bladers, leaving too few playing particular, or all, formats to host a tourney, at least in less blader filled areas.Anyway, I'm afraid my vulcan (and screw, maybe) tests must be postponed till tomorrow. Turns out I had a really busy day today, and I'm off to work in 20 minutes, then, when I get back, everyone will be sleeping, so I can't test. I'm sure no-one's really waiting to much on them, but yeah.
I'll need to do some pre-testing work with screw to figure out whether to use 85 or 90 (Unless people want me to specifically use 85, for consistency with vulcan?). I'll probably just use RF, as I don't want to over-use my R2F. So, yeah.
Doing my testing now. Gotta re-start. Initially, MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS was losing to vulcan consistently. However, it's doing better now.
I suspect this may be due to RS needing to be worn in a little. So yeah, ignore what I posted (Though I'm leaving it here in case it turns out Earth has just been lucky).
Still, after testing for a little, I kinda think we MIGHT need to consider introducing Libra. Lightning kills Earth way too easily. While Libra limits the use of older parts, like saggitario, our metagame will be really unbalanced without it. Obviously, we could ban the good attack wheels, but I just thought of another problem with that (other than being SUPER-LAME): A lot of people won't have the lower-tier attack wheels, so it'd restrict our player list. Make SURE you consider this. Plus, I think it might damage the metagames popularity, AND make it too hard to understand for kids.
Of course, we can leave libra unbanned, and if the early tourneys don't end up attack-dominated, then we might be okay.
I suspect this may be due to RS needing to be worn in a little. So yeah, ignore what I posted (Though I'm leaving it here in case it turns out Earth has just been lucky).
Still, after testing for a little, I kinda think we MIGHT need to consider introducing Libra. Lightning kills Earth way too easily. While Libra limits the use of older parts, like saggitario, our metagame will be really unbalanced without it. Obviously, we could ban the good attack wheels, but I just thought of another problem with that (other than being SUPER-LAME): A lot of people won't have the lower-tier attack wheels, so it'd restrict our player list. Make SURE you consider this. Plus, I think it might damage the metagames popularity, AND make it too hard to understand for kids.
Of course, we can leave libra unbanned, and if the early tourneys don't end up attack-dominated, then we might be okay.
Sorry for the triple post, but I figured this deserved a new post.
Earth and Aquario are Hasbro. RS is fresh, used once or twice, from RBV7. RF is in prime condition (for me, relatively close to mint), from bb-100. Byxis used on Vulcan for maximum exposure of metal. Defense always launched before attack. The Vulcan and Screw tests were done in two sets of ten for each wheel, alternated, as a compromise between reliable results (due to RF wear during testing), and ease of testing. Using Pisces on Screw for obvious reasons, if you wish to repeat these tests and don’t have Pisces, use Horogium instead (I can’t find another reasonable substitute, and it does make a difference).
NO Metal Face on screw as it doesn’t suffer enough recoil against this earth combo to warrant it. I don’t know about a metagame with libra in it, but yeah. The extra speed from not using a metal face is far more useful. I’ve posted about this before. While I use a metal face in the full format, here, I don’t feel it is necessary.
Attack combo’s sliding shot, defense straight shot to the centre. Draws re-drone, but also tallied.
TT Beylauncher LR (GP Reshuffle Clear ver.) used for both beys. 3Seg grip used.
BB-10 TT MFB Attack Stadium.
MF Vulcan Byxis 85RF vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS
Win Rates
Earth Aquario: 11/20 (all OS) = 55%
Vulcan Byxis: 9/20 (all KO) = 45%
Screw Pisces 85RF vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS
Win Rates
Earth Aquario: 15/20 (2KO, 12OS) = 65%
Screw Pisces: 7/20 (All KO) = 35%
A couple of notes, you’ll only get that high a win rate with Vulcan if your sliding shoot is strong and it pretty much has to be near-perfect to have a reasonable chance of winning.
Screw is more consistent, as it doesn’t always need to KO on the first hit. However, it IS less powerful. It is faster, though, likely due to weight distribution and not having a metal face. It’s probably more entertaining to watch, and slightly easier to use (though, obviously, Vulcan is the better wheel).
I’d think differences would be more pronounced against Low Track Defense. Vulcan has slopes that allow it to get under opponents, however, Screw needs to be at a lower height than the opponent to be fully effective.
Also, those screw results are lower than my past results. Kinda odd, but I’m feeling now that some of them might have been fluke wins. I honestly don’t know, but my launching was excellent today. I was using Screw Pisces 90RF when I did the old tests, but re-doing them quickly today with that combo only gave 3/10. So, I dunno. I suspect it was some kind of error, or wear on my RS or something in the old one, but honestly, I have no idea. But there’s no way it’d have done better than Vulcan then, so IDK.
Aaanyway, as I said, Screw is good, but not Vulcan good.
Earth and Aquario are Hasbro. RS is fresh, used once or twice, from RBV7. RF is in prime condition (for me, relatively close to mint), from bb-100. Byxis used on Vulcan for maximum exposure of metal. Defense always launched before attack. The Vulcan and Screw tests were done in two sets of ten for each wheel, alternated, as a compromise between reliable results (due to RF wear during testing), and ease of testing. Using Pisces on Screw for obvious reasons, if you wish to repeat these tests and don’t have Pisces, use Horogium instead (I can’t find another reasonable substitute, and it does make a difference).
NO Metal Face on screw as it doesn’t suffer enough recoil against this earth combo to warrant it. I don’t know about a metagame with libra in it, but yeah. The extra speed from not using a metal face is far more useful. I’ve posted about this before. While I use a metal face in the full format, here, I don’t feel it is necessary.
Attack combo’s sliding shot, defense straight shot to the centre. Draws re-drone, but also tallied.
TT Beylauncher LR (GP Reshuffle Clear ver.) used for both beys. 3Seg grip used.
BB-10 TT MFB Attack Stadium.
MF Vulcan Byxis 85RF vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth Aquario: 11/20 (all OS) = 55%
Vulcan Byxis: 9/20 (all KO) = 45%
Screw Pisces 85RF vs MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth Aquario: 15/20 (2KO, 12OS) = 65%
Screw Pisces: 7/20 (All KO) = 35%
A couple of notes, you’ll only get that high a win rate with Vulcan if your sliding shoot is strong and it pretty much has to be near-perfect to have a reasonable chance of winning.
Screw is more consistent, as it doesn’t always need to KO on the first hit. However, it IS less powerful. It is faster, though, likely due to weight distribution and not having a metal face. It’s probably more entertaining to watch, and slightly easier to use (though, obviously, Vulcan is the better wheel).
I’d think differences would be more pronounced against Low Track Defense. Vulcan has slopes that allow it to get under opponents, however, Screw needs to be at a lower height than the opponent to be fully effective.
Also, those screw results are lower than my past results. Kinda odd, but I’m feeling now that some of them might have been fluke wins. I honestly don’t know, but my launching was excellent today. I was using Screw Pisces 90RF when I did the old tests, but re-doing them quickly today with that combo only gave 3/10. So, I dunno. I suspect it was some kind of error, or wear on my RS or something in the old one, but honestly, I have no idea. But there’s no way it’d have done better than Vulcan then, so IDK.
Aaanyway, as I said, Screw is good, but not Vulcan good.
Vulcan is better... But how about Beat, I am worried about that right now. Looks to be better than Vulcan...
There's no way in hell that beat would be allowed in this format. We already established that.
AS A DEFAULT, EVERYTHING FROM THE MAXIMUM SERIES ONWARDS (I.E. 4D) IS BANNED. Exceptions we are looking at right now are Screw, Metal Flat, and Killer Beafowl. We are also considering a ban on Libra.
Also, totally just realised that 130 identification isn't an issue, as it was released in rbv5, and therefore isn't banned.
AS A DEFAULT, EVERYTHING FROM THE MAXIMUM SERIES ONWARDS (I.E. 4D) IS BANNED. Exceptions we are looking at right now are Screw, Metal Flat, and Killer Beafowl. We are also considering a ban on Libra.
Also, totally just realised that 130 identification isn't an issue, as it was released in rbv5, and therefore isn't banned.
I did a lot of tests with a friend of mine, he's not bad and we were switching beyblades.
LLD is strong but definitely not worth a ban.
same goes for libra.
RS,RSF and CS combos suffer left spin attackers, which means that they are as viable as right spin attack,
condering that:
rs etc customs are BAD against left spin attackers and a bit advataged against right RF users.
right rf users are bad, but playable against rs etc, and manage to deal with left spin attackers.
LLD is strong but definitely not worth a ban.
same goes for libra.
RS,RSF and CS combos suffer left spin attackers, which means that they are as viable as right spin attack,
condering that:
rs etc customs are BAD against left spin attackers and a bit advataged against right RF users.
right rf users are bad, but playable against rs etc, and manage to deal with left spin attackers.
(May. 13, 2011 8:28 AM)th!nk Wrote: Doing my testing now. Gotta re-start. Initially, MF-H Earth Aquario GB145RS was losing to vulcan consistently. However, it's doing better now.
I suspect this may be due to RS needing to be worn in a little. So yeah, ignore what I posted (Though I'm leaving it here in case it turns out Earth has just been lucky).
Still, after testing for a little, I kinda think we MIGHT need to consider introducing Libra. Lightning kills Earth way too easily. While Libra limits the use of older parts, like saggitario, our metagame will be really unbalanced without it. Obviously, we could ban the good attack wheels, but I just thought of another problem with that (other than being SUPER-LAME): A lot of people won't have the lower-tier attack wheels, so it'd restrict our player list. Make SURE you consider this. Plus, I think it might damage the metagames popularity, AND make it too hard to understand for kids.
Of course, we can leave libra unbanned, and if the early tourneys don't end up attack-dominated, then we might be okay.
Reference to the bold writing, I already predicted this earlier, and even mentioned it(I hope you remember). Now, I'll add to it. Banning attack wheels is a total nuisance, as almost no attack wheel is consistent. Plus, banning even one attack wheel, would lead to a shortage of attack wheels, as there are so few of them. Also, banning an attack wheel means that at least one of the Defense or Stamina parts, is gonna take over the meta game.
I really have no problem, if everyone thinks that attack wheels are too powerful, and should be banned, but it would lead to a disproportion in the meta game. Yes, Basalt is getting banned, but if Lightning is banned, Libra and Earth are surely gonna be a problem. Gravity is there to counter those, but I really don't trust Gravity, that it'll be able to defeat those combos with consistency as I don't really know much about this particular part, and have never thought it to be a wheel, more stronger than Lightning. Yes, if it be proved by tests that Gravity can get the job done, then I take back my words. Then again, if at all Gravity is considered overpowering, then what will we do?
Oh, gravity with perseus attack is as good as lightning IMO, although lightning is better at lower heights, gravity is better at heigher heights. IMO, anyway.
Yami, did you try sagittario or leone vs libra? If Leone manages to get a few wins (vs mfh libra gb145cs), I have no real issues with libra being unbanned from the start.
Btw, low track defence is probably the best option for defence in this format.
Perfect sliding shoots with vulcan mean you could manage to 3-0 earth gb145rs. My sliding shot isn't always perfect, but that's probably true for most people, at least in a tourney situation.
Yami, did you try sagittario or leone vs libra? If Leone manages to get a few wins (vs mfh libra gb145cs), I have no real issues with libra being unbanned from the start.
Btw, low track defence is probably the best option for defence in this format.
Perfect sliding shoots with vulcan mean you could manage to 3-0 earth gb145rs. My sliding shot isn't always perfect, but that's probably true for most people, at least in a tourney situation.
Why re-ban libra when basalt is taking over? That don't make sense at all.
What? Again, basalt is banned in this format. Your post doesn't seem to make sense, unless I missed something?
for now, this kind of metagame seems to see attack as the best choice.
still it isn't that unbalanced, plus attack requires skill to be used.
from my tests, it seems to be pretty fun to play, sorta balanced and various.
still it isn't that unbalanced, plus attack requires skill to be used.
from my tests, it seems to be pretty fun to play, sorta balanced and various.