World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

Bearing Drive - It Isn't as Flimsy as You Think it is

Oct. 28, 2014  1:50 AM
 
:: Bearing Drive - It Isn't as Flimsy as You Think it is ::
=======================================

Hey guys!

I've been wanting to write this thread for I can't remember how long. There's been a popular idea across the Beyblade community for years that B:D is unworthy of competitive status because it has exceptionally poor recoil control. It's generally believed that Bearing Drive is inferior stability-wise to other competitive Stamina setups, and as such, it should not be considered competitive (some have even said that Bearing Drive can be "KOed by wind").

I flatly disagree with this idea. I honestly believe that this is a misconception that has carried itself along after the initial hype surrounding B:D's release. I think the idea that B:D itself has serious recoil handling issues was most likely birthed by earlier players' experiences with Phantom B:D, the setup it was most commonly tested with originally. The recoil players experienced during early testing with the setup was very likely due to Phantom's disadvantageous shape, rather than B:D's poor stability.

In short, I theorize that this mindset is the result of players associating the recoil troubles of Phantom B:D with B:D itself, rather than with Phantom, the true cause. In any case, there is no testing anywhere on the site that supports this idea. None. Believe me, I searched far and wide, all the way back to posts pre-dating the release of Phantom Orion.

I hope to dissolve this misconception by testing Bearing Drive's recoil handling capabilities against a semi-aggressive combination, and then testing some of today's competitive Stamina setups against the same opponent, and comparing the results. Hopefully the following tests will demonstrate that Bearing Drive's recoil handling capabilities are nothing short of exceptional.

Testing Combinations

I chose Earth Saggitarrio B:D/(insert competitive Stamina setup here) for the Stamina combination. Earth has relatively low recoil and great Stamina. It's a competitive Stamina/Defense Wheel in Limited, and it suits this purpose well. Saggitario is a standard Defensive Clear Wheel.

I chose MF-H Pegasis _______ CS for the semi-aggressive combination. This custom is on level with the control Stamina type in weight (marginally heavier, purposely), and it provides relatively strong, consistent smash. Tracks were swapped in between sets to match the control Stamina type's height.

Testing: (Click to View)
Oct. 28, 2014  1:54 AM
 
Can you try RSF for the tip rather CS? Because even the more aggressive CS' don't have much agrression. Therefore, you're really not doing much good. Also, test against Libra/Scythe(Borh of possible) D125RSF.
Oct. 28, 2014  1:57 AM
 
Why did you used CS instead or RSF/RF/R2F ?
Oct. 28, 2014  2:04 AM
 
I totally agree with TheBlackDragon's statement. We don't agree on some things, but this is one of the few we do. B:D is my favorite Stamina bottom (other than maybe EWD) and it most definitely takes hits just as well as the D-series tips. If I can find all those B:D vs. SA165EWD tests I did like a year ago I'll post them here but they were around equal.

But |BeyBouncer| and Echizen do have a point, I'm not exactly sure in what competitive scenario you'd fight a Pegasus W145CS. Maybe Libra __145 RSF/CS instead to give B:D a more realistic look.

EDIT: hey I found it
Oct. 28, 2014  2:05 AM
 
@First two posts: RSF is too aggressive. The combinations being tested have extremely low Defensive capacity, and using anything more aggressive than CS would throw the numbers out of proportion. They'd be too small to draw conclusions from.

I'd say this did a carpload of good. The numbers occupy a nice range (30%-80%, easy to evaluate). The evidence is pretty solid.
Oct. 28, 2014  2:11 AM
 
It's not like people, given a competitive situation, will use CS. Just look at the winning combos. And if B:D can't even beat a defense custom, it shouldn't be on the tier list.

Even if it gives comparable tests, it's still more accurate results. Though, if you want to use CS, I'd prefer you use Scythe or Libra. But I'd still like to see with RSF.

Also, I'd like to see 20 tests done on everything, none of these were completely one-sided and you did 20 with B:D... therefore these tests aren't very valid. Also, a video if possible.

[/constant demands]
Oct. 28, 2014  2:52 AM
 
@Echizen
I would say Pegasis CS is defense, Pegasis is obviously an attack wheel and some CS's can be really agro. TBD is not trying to show that BGrin is defensive so getting beat by Pegasis CS shouldn't determine tier list or not. He is trying to show that the idea that BGrin is easier to KO than other stamina customs is false. Also as he stated he wanted to try something that would be somewhat effective but not destroy the custom.

@TheBlackDragon
Thank you for posting this thread! After December 2013 (when I started trying BGrin in Standard) I completely changed my opinion about it being easier to KO than other stamina. Once again thanks for posting this thread and hopefully this will change people's opinions about BGrin.
Oct. 28, 2014  2:58 AM
 
Huh?

MSF-H Pegasis CS isn't supposed to be competitive; it's supposed to be something that can be used as a tool to gauge the recoil control of the Stamina combinations. It's not a Defense custom. It wasn't designed to beat anything; it was designed to KO Stamina types at a controlled, measurable rate, so that we can determine which setups resist KO most effectively.

I figured 10 tests for every matchup was unnecessary, since I was just trying to get a broad idea of how competitive Stamina setups resisted KO; the objective was to draw an averaged percentage to compare with BGrin.

Plus, I didn't have all that much time (I have a bunch of schoolwork due Wednesday, and I've been working on a Chemistry paper all day... ugh).

I can maybe do another 10 rounds with everything this weekend.

EDIT: Ninja'd by TD XD
Oct. 28, 2014  3:21 AM
 
I totally agree b : d is a great tip with amazing stamina/defense potentials ... Thought I've never had balance problems with phantom Orion b : d
Oct. 28, 2014  3:51 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2014  2:52 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: @Echizen
I would say Pegasis CS is defense, Pegasis is obviously an attack wheel and some CS's can be really agro. TBD is not trying to show that B:D is defensive so getting beat by Pegasis CS shouldn't determine tier list or not. He is trying to show that the idea that B:D is easier to KO than other stamina customs is false. Also as he stated he wanted to try something that would be somewhat effective but not destroy the custom.

We really don't know if his is even aggro at all. I didn't say he was. But Pegasis is better at lower heights, which means that the attack power is lessened, even in the B:D tests, but maybe that's a good thing, but even at a low height it still did bad for some reason. and there's still the problem that not all attack types are consistent and he only did 10 tests for everything, but for the B:D tests, kinda strange really.


Yeah, but it's really a problem, TBH. Not all attack types are consistent. With doing 10 tests you could have just lessened the win percentage by 10-20%.

BTW, I'm not here to bash you or anything, just pointing out concerns.
Oct. 28, 2014  4:37 AM
 
Pegasis is not better on low heights, I can say that whole heartedly. 145 is probably the best perfect height against most opponents.

Buuuuuuuut that is not what this thread is about so I'll go now lol. But honestly, stability for B : D and other popular stamina set ups is pretty much the same. B : D might stand up better against these slightly aggro opponents but when it comes down to it, neither will win in a competitive situation against a true attacker and set ups with Wyvang (seeing as it can handle stuff on CS, RB, etc. with a calm CS lol. This is just wht I have seen).
Oct. 28, 2014  4:49 AM
 
By low-heights I meant 120-125 not 85-105. Tongue_out Which, on the developmental tier list has CH120.

But still, there's Defense types that can KO Stamina types rather often. Maybe some of the thoughts that BGrin has no defensive power carried over from Standard format with heavier synchrome Defenders. With things such as, MSF-H Wyvang Dragooon BD145RDF, etc. That KO Duo BGrin much easier. At one of my tournaments, Duo BGrin was KO'd by a Diablo balance custom, several times.
Oct. 28, 2014  4:08 PM
 
That's because Wyvang RDF customs and Diablo Balance customs are specifically designed to KO Stamina combinations.

I like how Tri put it; regardless of what setup it uses, a Stamina combination is not going to win against an Attack custom. As long as it isn't in danger of KO by Defenders or other Stamina combos, the defensive capacity of a Stamina setup shouldn't really matter (and even if it does, Bearing Drive's exceeds that of most conventional Stamina setups anyway).
Oct. 28, 2014  9:58 PM
 
The Diablo Balance custom was Diablo ___ GB145MB(Or something like that).

I'm specifically talking about Defense customs being able to KO Stamina types. As you said, BGrin is thought to be able to be KO'd fairly easily, and hasn't really been acomplished by this thread.
Oct. 28, 2014  10:13 PM
 
This thread shows that B:D is KOed fairly easily but less easily than other Stamina setups. Of course Attack (or even mildly aggro setups) will KO it no problem; that's what you get for playing Stamina. But the point here is that, against an intentionally weakened Attack type, B:D did at the very least comparably to standard Stamina setups. This isn't trying to prove that B:D is GLORIOUS MASTER STAMINA/DEFENSE HYBRID, it's just trying to kill the notion that B:D handles Attack even worse than most Stamina setups.
Oct. 28, 2014  10:22 PM
 
(Oct. 28, 2014  9:58 PM)Echizen Wrote: The Diablo Balance custom was Diablo ___ GB145MB(Or something like that).

I'm specifically talking about Defense customs being able to KO Stamina types. As you said, BGrin is thought to be able to be KO'd fairly easily, and hasn't really been acomplished by this thread.

Actually, that's not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is to demonstrate that Bearing Drive is more resistant (however slightly) to KO than today's competitive Stamina setups.

BGrin is extremely easy to KO. It's a pure Stamina Bottom. What I'm trying to say, however, is that extremely low stability is no reason to keep it off the tier list, because it is more stable than most of today's competitive Stamina setups.

I don't think Earth Bearing Drive could possibly lose to a Libra/Scythe Defense custom. However, even if it did, that still doesn't matter. Since we've demonstrated that Bearing Drive is more stable than other conventional Stamina setups, we can deduce that, if Bearing Drive were KOed by a Defense custom, the rest of the Stamina setups would be as well. At that point, the entire Stamina section should be removed from the tier list.

For instance, at this point, if we tested Burn BGrin and found that it lost via KO to MF-H Libra R145RB, then, according to these numbers, Burn W145WD should lose via KO as well. At that point, by your reasoning, Burn should be removed from the Stamina section entirely.

EDIT: Beaten again
Oct. 28, 2014  10:53 PM
 
That's what I was saying, was it not?

Look, you can't say anything about BGrin based on those tests. A slightly weakened attack type none-the-less is still going to be fairly inconsistent especially with Pegasis. So doing 10 tests and then 20 for the benchmark is kinda fishy to me. Like I said, probably changing the results in favor of BGrin by at least 5-10%.

Burn is still one of those BGrin customs that are being looked into. Burn has more recoil and less weight.

You haven't demonstrated anything. 10-15% is quite the error that seriosuly needs to be looked into, before you start making these assumptions;

We're trying to find out whether it will be KO'd or not...... and yes, if it loses to a defense type, then by all means take it out...


Wow... Based off your tests, I was going into this thing thinking the outcome would be severely similair to you results, but... just wow.

Burn Pegasis 2 BGrin Vs. MF-H Scythe Pegasis 2 GB145RSF

BGrin: 3(All OS)
SP: 7(All KO)
Ties: 0

Win Rate: 30%

Burn Pegasis 2 W145WD Vs. MF-H Scythe Pegasis 2 GB145RSF

W145WD: 6(All OS)
SP: 4(All KO)
Ties: 0

Win Rate: 60%

...
Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM
 
That is absolutely not what you said (or at least what you typed; I'm having trouble making sense of what you're saying). What I just said is that, by looking at these results, we can conclude that Bearing Drive works effectively against Defense types.

You know what's an assumption? That my results are offset by 15% just because I did fewer rounds. That is a pure assumption. You have literally no evidence you can possibly use to support such a claim. Mathematically, if the rate of KO stays the same, even if I did ten more rounds, I would've come out with the same percentage (and even if we assume that my testing methods are inconsistent, the results may very well have been offset against Scythe; nobody knows the future, so we can't come to a conclusion).

I can say worlds about B:D based on those test. They are perfectly sufficient to prove that B:D has impressive stability compared to other Stamina setups (which, by the way, is what I was trying to prove, if I haven't made that incredibly clear already).

I can explain your results easily. Burn's underside is very recoily, and Scythe's slopes are located high on the wheel. B:D is 1.5 mm higher than W145WD. By using slightly offset heights, you exposed Burn's underside and moved Scythe's slopes into position to make contact consistently. B:D was at a height disadvantage.

This is exactly why I didn't use Scythe, because its smash is incredibly potent at certain heights, and incredibly impotent at others (same thing with Burn; I chose Earth and Pegasis for a reason). You can't draw accurate conclusions, because height is extremely important in this case.

Your results were caused by the Wheels you used, not by B:D. Go re-do those tests with Burn 160D (same height as B:D) - I guarantee your results will be different.

EDIT: Oh, and if we adhere to your logic, I can't even take your testing seriously, because you only did ten rounds.
Oct. 29, 2014  12:05 AM
 
I'm kind of curious how B : D stands up stability wise compared to SA165EWD. I have a feeling it would stand up better than a conventional set up like W145/160 D/WD, and maybe better than B : D.

EDIT: play it niiiice boys.
Oct. 29, 2014  12:19 AM
 
(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: That is absolutely not what you said (or at least what you typed; I'm having trouble making sense of what you're saying). What I just said is that, by looking at these results, we can conclude that Bearing Drive works effectively against Defense types.

Oh, I see how it didn't make sense. I was saying or meant to say that; BGrin is thought to be KO'd fairly easily and the point of this thread is to disprove that notion.

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: You know what's an assumption? That my results are offset by 15% just because I did fewer rounds. That is a pure assumption. You have literally no evidence you can possibly use to support such a claim. Mathematically, if the rate of KO stays the same, even if I did ten more rounds, I would've come out with the same percentage (and even if we assume that my testing methods are inconsistent, the results may very well have been offset against Scythe; nobody knows the future, so we can't come to a conclusion).


Lol. There's an understood estimation there, not an assumption. It's not just an assumption it's a hypthesis based by the notion that not all attack types are going to be 100% win rates against stamina, like most stamina types beat Defense types.

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I can say worlds about BGrin based on those test. They are perfectly sufficient to prove that BGrin has impressive stability compared to other Stamina setups (which, by the way, is what I was trying to prove, if I haven't made that incredibly clear already).

No you can't........ You were using two different amounts of tests...

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: I can explain your results easily. Burn's underside is very recoily, and Scythe's slopes are located high on the wheel. BGrin is 1.5 mm higher than W145WD. By using slightly offset heights, you exposed Burn's underside and moved Scythe's slopes into position to make contact consistently. BGrin was at a height disadvantage.

Actually, Scythe's slopes are equally alined with Pegasis 2... it's not under it at all... lol. There not offset at all. They're almost nearly the same height.

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: This is exactly why I didn't use Scythe, because its smash is incredibly potent at certain heights, and incredibly impotent at others (same thing with Burn; I chose Earth and Pegasis for a reason). You can't draw accurate conclusions, because height is extremely important in this case.

Actually Pegasis can be used at several different heights. Also, I only used one Scythe height so your explanation is mute. Also, this is a top tier Defense custom, therefore allowed for accurate use.

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: Your results were caused by the Wheels you used, not by BGrin. Go re-do those tests with Burn 160D (same height as BGrin) - I guarantee your results will be different.
Okay doke.

(Oct. 28, 2014  11:59 PM)TheBlackDragon Wrote: EDIT: Oh, and if we adhere to your logic, I can't even take your testing seriously, because you only did ten rounds.

Lol, the problem is that you did 20 for BGrin and 10 for the rest. Not that you used 10. Lol. No need to get snippy.
Oct. 29, 2014  12:21 AM
 
Tri, Wombat linked some testing he did in the third post. IIRC B:D was roughly equal with SA165EWD.

I did ten more rounds of B:D testing (to make sure my launch strength wasn't drifting), and ten more rounds of W145WD testing. I got exactly the same results with W145WD as I did the first ten rounds, and B:D actually did better.

Added 10 rounds to each set in the OP.
Oct. 29, 2014  12:25 AM
 
Burn Pegasis 2 BGrin Vs. MF-H Scythe Pegasis 2 GB145RSF

BGrin: 3(All OS)
SP: 7(All KO)
Ties: 0

Win Rate: 30%

Burn Pegasis 2 160D Vs. MF-H Scythe Pegasis 2 GB145RSF

160D: 4(All OS)
SP: 6(All KO)
Ties: 0

Win Rate: 40%

Different, sure. But I know for a fact that Burn 160D is taller than Burn BGrin hence the results. Even still, it did better than BGrin...
Oct. 29, 2014  1:13 AM
 
You did ten rounds again. that 1 KO easily could've been offset (this is a situation where 20 rounds would've been more appropriate, since you're comparing two combinations directly and the results were extremely close). Even so, you proved my point; the height disadvantage was your problem.

So, lemme get this straight; if I had done only 10 rounds for B:D, doing ten rounds for the others would've been fine? That... doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm pretty sure 160 and B:D are like the exact same height. If we take your results and mine concerning B:D and 160D, yours show a 25% difference, whereas mine show a 60% difference, so that would knock the numbers down to a 35% in favor of B:D.

(Oct. 29, 2014  12:19 AM)Echizen Wrote: Oh, I see how it didn't make sense. I was saying or meant to say that; B:D is thought to be KO'd fairly easily and the point of this thread is to disprove that notion.

Except that's not what the point of the thread was. All Stamina Bottoms are KOed fairly easily. This thread was meant to show that Bearing Drive isn't any easier to KO than other Stamina setups.

Echizen Wrote:Lol. There's an understood estimation there, not an assumption. It's not just an assumption it's a hypthesis based by the notion that not all attack types are going to be 100% win rates against stamina, like most stamina types beat Defense types.

Yes, but again, even if the consistency isn't perfect, you have no way of knowing that the numbers will be increased in favor of B:D or increased against it. Think about a 7-sided die (not sure if those exist, but humor me for a minute here). It won't consistently land on 4, but that doesn't mean it will always land higher than four. It has just as much of a chance of landing lower than four.

Echizen Wrote:No you can't........ You were using two different amounts of tests...

That doesn't matter. The rate of KO was still the same. The win percentage is what really matters. The reason we do lots of tests is to get rid of inconsistencies.

The more tests you do, the closer you get to the true win rate of the combination you're testing. The fact that I did 20 rounds of testing with B:D only makes the results more accurate. It doesn't nullify them. If I had done ten rounds with B:D, the results would have been further removed from the true win percentage, and would have been less accurate.

Echizen Wrote:Actually, Scythe's slopes are equally alined with Pegasis 2... it's not under it at all... lol. There not offset at all. They're almost nearly the same height.

I don't know what that means. The fact is that, by increasing the height of the combination, you moved the underside of Burn closer to Scythe's slopes, which resulted in higher release of force upon contact.

Echizen Wrote:Actually Pegasis can be used at several different heights.

Exactly. That's why I used it. Its smash doesn't change significantly based on its opponent's height (it does somewhat, but it's more evenly distributed than most wheels, and I changed Tracks to compensate), so the results are more accurate.

Echizen Wrote:Also, I only used one Scythe height so your explanation is mute. Also, this is a top tier Defense custom, therefore allowed for accurate use.

No it isn't. Actually, the fact that you didn't change heights with Scythe is exactly why my explanation makes sense. If you had changed Scythe's height to 160, it would have been making contact with B:D in the same place it made contact with W145WD.

"Top-tier" doesn't mean "accurate." It means "relevant." The tier of the Beyblade you use in comparison testing like this doesn't matter. You're only allowed to use competitive combinations in custom threads because they are used to gauge the ability of a combination in battle, not the specific, relative properties of a single part.
Oct. 29, 2014  1:34 AM
 
The 10 tests was only a problem against an inconsistent attack type. For the most part, defense types are fairly consistent. And I already told you W145WD is the same height as GB145RSF...

Yeah that would've been fine really. Because BGrin wouldn't have the extra leeway it got with 20 rounds because of the attack types inconsistency.

They aren't. I can post pictures of both soon.

Yeah, but still that can't be gathered.

Im certain it wouldn't decrease them... and I said it was an estimate. But with these tests we know that Attack types are inconsistent.

That doesn't mean it will be the same for every test and every single person. The validity of BGrin isn't rested in your hands alone. Exactly. You lessened he accuracy of the other by doing only 10 each time.

You told me the slopes of Scythe caused Burn to lose so much, but I already told you it didn't. They didn't even touch Scythe's slopes.

But it wouldn't... 160D would be higher than BGrin.

Accurate = Relevant in this specific circumstance. So if you were to use Grand Capricorne WD145RSF would give applicable results? We're not comapring properties, we're in fact gauging the use of BGrin comapred to other customs.
Oct. 29, 2014  1:43 AM
 
First off, let me say this is a cool idea. BGrin is definitely a bit underrated in some aspects.

Quote:"Top-tier" doesn't mean "accurate." It means "relevant." The tier of the Beyblade you use in comparison testing like this doesn't matter. You're only allowed to use competitive combinations in custom threads because they are used to gauge the ability of a combination in battle, not the specific, relative properties of a single part.

I get the general idea of this, but no offence, I think the wording could be a bit... better?

I mean, you can't just test something like Dark Gemios W145 CS, say it loses to BGrin and proves the point. I know that's taking it out of context, but it could easily be misinterpreted like that.

Personally, I just felt the wording could be misinterpreted- similar to the example I gave.
Page 1
Next