Still, it is the reality of [Basalt], you know that there is a chance that it will be a heavier one. In battles, you are not even supposed to know what your opponent will choose anyway, so just at worst select a combination that has more chances of defeating Basalt combinations.

You think there have not been any Basalt Metal Wheels that were slightly heavier in tournaments where lately other Metal Wheels have been winning ?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were. It was noticeably started with Basalt though. That is ever since YJA sellers started to put astronomical price tags on a single metal wheel.

Edit: I misread your question. Sorry. Yes, Scythes and Phantoms for stamina, and VariAres for attack still place even when heavy Basalts were present, although it didn't go down without a fight.

Honestly speaking I cant say yet. 4D meta is completely not here. I can only vouch for Basalt only. We have only 2 WBO tournaments thus far and WBBA tournaments are very active (still up to Maximum series for at least the next few months).

Self testing can only do so much. Which is why, I always take advantage of free play as much as possible.

But for everywhere else, that may be the case. The closest example I can make is towards Indonesia. Like Uwik mentioned, emily has a 49 gram basalt and it has won her a fairly considerably amount of tournaments. When we faced off against her, most of us literally went down against it until someone amongst us was brave enough to test an untested Scythe 230 CS combo against it. Hence I can safely say there has been other parts which can still stand a chance against it despite the [Super] status.

As for the chances [of having a super part], unless the player is an avid collector (who announces it openly), there is no way in knowing whether the part is heavier (eg; a certain someone with a certain phantom).

Even if it was, it will still be raped by something which naturally kills it (Vari can still KO Phantom no?). I believe that [Super parts] will mostly show their potential in a meta where almost everyone uses something similar where mirror matches or matches which are almost similar (eg; difference being only the MW) are relatively common.

Just a tiny bit addition regarding this matter.

While generally heavier is better, it's still not 100% conclusive. Balance is also an issue. After reading up on the posts people have mentioned about SonoKong's 4Ds being a bit heavier, we need to understand that they are not always better.

In regard of SonoKong vs TAKARA-TOMY, I personally feel that TAKARA-TOMY tends to have better balance in general, which matters in defense and stamina type. Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion, it's merely based on my statistical analysis that I've gathered for some time. I am, however, not familiar with Hasbro, so I'm going to leave Hasbro out for this purpose.

Take Phantom for example. There's been cases where a lighter TAKARA-TOMY constantly defeats a heavier SonoKong in mirror match ups. As a matter of fact, these cases are quite common too. Hell, Basalt, Jade are other examples.

So, a blader should not worry if he/she didn't get one of the 'heavy' variant. There's still hope yet. Although, when in doubt, always go heavy, since it is the safer route

Isn't also the fact that the heavier Phantoms defeat Duo with ease?

Hopefully it evens out somehow, haha. (matchup-wise)
I'm just wondering what a SonoKong VariAres weights! Godsend if heavier. I hope.

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Yes for me, and so far, maybe a handful few others, but for the most part, Duo takes cake.

I'm going on a limb here, but I'd say for a stamina mirror match up, an average Phantom can take on an average Duo quite consistently.

I just hope SK doesn't pull the same stunt with Diablo Nemesis! Imagine that..

to be honest, I'm more concerned about weight issues of 4D beys in tournaments, I mean it could get pretty unfair and too ridiculous to regulate..







Imagine it, Uwik.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

I already mentioned tournaments on the previous page, Dan.

Diablo Nemesis should be immediately weighed in multiples - if it's already going to be so insultingly heavy, the variations could be downright disgusting.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I've been inspired to buy a Sonokong Phantom so will have some in-house comparisons to make and share on weight and performance soon. It should get here just before Diablo and RB9, so I won't get distracted by the new beys...

My scales haven't been sent yet; the seller went on a holiday the next day and stopped processing orders, though this was not mentioned to me at all, I only found out by viewing the listing later (seeing as it was for multiple items). I'll check the weight of my TT Phantom and Duo when I get the scales, but it might be a while.

I'd like to see some TT/SK Variares weight comparisons, given my struggles with the wheel.

Hopefully they'll be a bit more careful with Diablo's consistency weightwise.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Over the holidays I got a scale, so finally I can contribute to this! Here are the weights of my Duo, Phantom, VariAres, and Basalt Wheels:

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All TAKARA-TOMY

Basalt (Starter): 47.39g
Basalt (Strongest Blader Set): 48.09

Phantom: 42.38g
Phantom: 42.51g

VariAres: 43.57g

Duo: 42.59g

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I did some quick testing, and Duo annihilates my 42.51g Phantom in mirror matches.

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Phantom: 42.51g
Duo: 42.59g

I did some quick testing, and Duo annihilates my 42.51g Phantom in mirror matches.

That's great Kei, it somewhat confirms my previous observation..

The best summary so far would be to 'assume' the following:

Duo vs Phantom (in term of stamina): Duo would win if it's less than 0.5 gr difference, else, Phantom takes the cake.

With a margin of victory being decided by so little weight, it really calls into question the choice of face bolt. MF (4.75g) vs regular (1.07g) is a gigantic difference in weight comparatively, and even the difference between MF (4.75g) and MF-H (5.4g) might be enough to swing the match one way or another.

I'm not particularly claiming that a heavier face bolt is better - it may be that less weight in the center allows either Duo or Phantom to outspin the other... I guess some testing here might be beneficial.

Hmm that's an interesting perspective. With regular faces, we pretty much focus on the metal wheel, and outward weight distribution. Nonetheless, it's definitely worth a try. Compacts worked in the past for having centralized weight distribution right?

A couple of things to add here, based on recent weights and various things. All my weights are in my Weights Spreadsheet, a link to which is in the MFB spoiler in my signature.

My Phantom isn't especially heavy (42.34g), but consistently smokes my average-weight Duo. I posted a lot back in the day with more comparatives against different opponents. IIRC my Duo was normal but I forget, don't have the time to sift through all of my posts to find the right ones.
As for Basalts, my weight range is pretty small, but my oldest and lightest has always worked better defensively and stamina-wise - this could well be due to the wear however, as basalt gets smoother as it gets beat up and the top of mine is also curved inwards a bit, which could help defensively I guess.

And the new one - Flash. Mine is 3.3g lighter than Ingulit's, and from Byser's weights (also much heavier than mine), the weight is primarily in the Metal Frame. Given that unlike the two other things we're looking at here this is not a single 40g+ chunk of metal, in this case 2g on a 20-25g part should be visible. Would appreciate other's subcomponent weights and pictures especially of heavier ones - or if you have two different weights checking them closely with regards to thickness/depth etc would be great.

Probably also worth throwing out there that Earth (Mold 2) and Flame see a ~1g range in weights, without any molding differences I can spot. They share a similar range, too, 32-33g.

If you're reading this and can't post in this forum, there's been discussion in Beyblade Random Thoughts so you could post anything relevant there and let me know as I don't always check it.

We really should get a full, active mold differences/weight investigation etc thread going, have a rough draft of known stuff around but it's very rough, and at the rate we're finding mold differences lately we may well be done before it goes up, so a list or w/e would be better than a discussion thread. Still, something to consider.

There is a proposal about beywiki I want to make based on this though - once we've eliminated actual mold changes, beywiki should include a range of the weights used (i.e. Min/Max on reliable record) to get the averages we should be using for weights.
Currently a lot of the time single measurements are being used to get data up faster, ideally if someone could get all the weights etc together with averages once we've worked out and separated the mold related ones (which won't be for a little while - I'm doing all I can and many others are also looking into this stuff now, but there's still only so much we can do in a lot of cases where there aren't people who have all the molds), we could change that, but at the moment, we should just make sure averages are used on new articles if available and I'll continue to make note of any particularly egregious cases (eg Phantom, where the weight is one of the uncommonly heavy ones and probably correct them when given the go-ahead.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Weight range for Beywiki is definitely a plus. It's something that has always nagged me before.

For example:

Gryph (29.60 grams - 31.70 grams. Average: 30.4 grams)

Do notice that preferably, there's an average number. Also, there should be a data spreadsheet document (weight, diameter, thickness, etc) saved and pinned somewhere in the Beywiki forum. We can always add more to it, and it's a whole lot easier to get the average number and to edit articles with a spreadsheet document. I believe there's one that's basically ready in the forum, and just needed to be re-format a bit.

The only problem with that parenthesis is that I have moved onto the format where we put all the measurements and the weight in a one-row table, and adding two more cells sometimes would make the table way too long.

Hahahaha, I noticed the one-row table format. Any suggestion for a format that could incorporate range and average, without major change?

I understand it's a hassle, but surely one article at a time when there's enough data for that particular part is doable and worth it.

Add another row, or separate dimensions into their table, or something along those lines. Unless we go with something shorter also with Parentheses - Weight: 30.4g (29.60g-31.70g) or something along those lines, using the example Uwik provided. We do need to find a way, because range data is very important.


Obviously a compiled weight doc would be great, but we have issues with people not reporting molds/origins (which is a huge step towards futureproofing your data) or using different formats - including facebolts or whatever, only full weights for 4D Metal Wheels. That said, the format I used for my weights doc should be able to encompass almost all of that data, so simply a '-' where detailed data isn't provided would work (need to add three more columns to the track weights for two subcomponents and a key for what they are, but that's quite simple and I've already included most of those in the notes section for my weights anyway. And of course another column for who the weight belongs to/where it came from etc).

If no one else volunteers, I will look into doing that when I have time and feel we are ready with regards to particular mold differences, seeing as that shouldn't be so soon that I can't clear out a couple of other things I need to get done first. If someone else does it, including a template/guide to weights would be good - basically make sure people provide maximum possible detail.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List

Obviously a compiled weight doc would be great, but we have issues with people not reporting molds/origins (which is a huge step towards futureproofing your data) or using different formats - including facebolts or whatever, only full weights for 4D Metal Wheels. That said, the format I used for my weights doc should be able to encompass almost all of that data, so simply a '-' where detailed data isn't provided would work (need to add three more columns to the track weights for two subcomponents and a key for what they are, but that's quite simple and I've already included most of those in the notes section for my weights anyway. And of course another column for who the weight belongs to/where it came from etc).

If no mold difference was described along with the weight submission, then simply disregard the weight altogether. It's not ideal, but it is the best way to get the most accurate data, no?

We would be discarding a lot of weights, but we definitely couldn't use most of those for BeyWiki anyway, so as much as I would like to include them for archival purposes, it would be a waste of time, yes.
There are some cases where the weight alone can tell you the mold (some SonoKong versions, some very distinct ones like Vulcan's tends to be, Mold 1 Earths, etc) so those could be included with a note on the 'safely assumed mold'.

Of course until we have a clear guide to mold differences, some are *very* hard to tell apart - for example Burn Mold 2/3 is close enough that I'm not yet convinced it isn't just a result of denting/wear, as I shoud have a mix of Molds 2 and 3 and they all look very, very similar, with noticeable 'denting' in the lines being the main cause of that, so I cannot tell what molds mine are. (I've posted Pics over in Beyblade Random Thoughts where similar discussions are taking place).
The thing I worry about is with older weights, people might not know that they have say a mold 3 burn rather than a mold 2 - now to be fair, if I have the expected mix of Mold 2's and 3's, then the weights are very similar, but odds are there are cases with other wheels (this is why I advocate including the full source - brand and release - for any reasonably weighty part that a weigher can).

There are also likely to be cases where an abnormally light or heavy weight for a mold gives the idea that mold is much lighter - for example, 0 cylinder Rock. Beywiki lists a very light weight for it which was at the time a safe assumption because no one noticed the metal was moved to the underside rim until I looked into why my 0 Cylinder Rock was very close to being my heaviest recently - I suspect very strongly Takara Tomy aimed to keep the weight consistent. However, an average would indicate it being lower - while it's unscientific to argue with data, it's not completely out of the question with very small datasets.
Then again, that is something one could just explain in the article, so I am probably finding problems where there are none.


Tables thing:
We have to expand that to include weights of different molds anyway IMO, so splitting off weight and dimension tables might be good anyway. Weights table could include Average, Min and Max, with a separate table for each mold, which aside from the original mold could be put in the Mold Variations section. For parts with subcomponents, we continue to add the two subcomponent averages as we generally do from what I gather (this is less accurate than having everyone re-weigh such parts whole etc etc but it looks better and is less hassle), and I guess use the total of the mins and maxes of the subcomponents for those figures.

Would say to include n (total number of samples used to generate that average) however for parts with subcomponents, the fact people rarely do more than a total weight means resulting disparities would look very odd, unless we discard an absolutely absurd amount of perfectly usable data.

Take for example Phantom - we've got a tonne of weights for it thanks to this thread, but only three I've seen have separate PC Core and Metal Frame weights - Mine and both of Byser's, all of which are a little over 42g total (i.e. bottom of the weight range). Given the core weight tends to be within a few tenths of a gram (and I doubt there's going to be much variation there), I figure the most accurate result will come from subtracting the average core weight from the full-wheel weights, and using those numbers along side the actual Metal Frame weights that we have to generate an average - though as I think I said in the errors on the wiki, I'm going to wait for someone to give me the go-ahead before I do so, as I'm not 100% confident in that. But anyway, that leaves us with N=3 and N=10 for the core/frame respectively which is kinda weird.

But yeah, Average, Min, Max, and if people want to see more they could check the compiled weight document when it's done.

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th!nkBlargh|H-Code Product List