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Track height debate

Jul. 30, 2014  4:23 AM
 
As according to echizen the current meta track heights are as follows.
7 145- tracks
17 145= tracks (7 of which are bd145)
17 145+ tracks (8 of which are of 230 variant)
These numbers are actually much farther than what I expected, but that is just my own biases. I would like to analyze track heights as a whole, and see the things they bring to the meta game, and see if we could ever find use for many of the tracks.
Use this thread as a debate tool, that I will check and add numbers to, so that way we can understand if any track height is an over whelming threat (I used to think of it like that, but now feel it isn't an apt description of the game state)
Thank you for your time
Jul. 30, 2014  4:31 AM
 
R145 and C145 haven't been top tier since BD145 came out, pretty much.
Jul. 30, 2014  4:32 AM
 
I am aware, but they were still usable at the time, now they are completely useless in most current situations
Jul. 30, 2014  4:36 AM
 
You talk about them as defensive tracks in the OP, and once BD145 that was the defensive track, any other options were ridiculous compared to BD145.
Jul. 30, 2014  4:38 AM
 
I don't think it was the tall Attack types that caused R145/C145 and other mid-height defensive Tracks to become irrelevant. It was the release of BD145.

Proceeded by the release of E230, which may eventually have the same effect on BD145.
Jul. 30, 2014  4:40 AM
 
What about tr145 on an basalt rf anti attack custom, it had a purpose not only could it keep the bey from scraping on the floor, and also absorb some blows from low attackers.
Bd was going to be talked about as well but I have still seen it in many customs
Jul. 30, 2014  5:05 AM
 
(Jul. 30, 2014  4:23 AM)Thumbnail Wrote: With the inclusion of fb230 and e230 to the meta game, many 145 based defensive tracks have become unnecessary. Many attack combos no longer hit at track level with the lower tracks being used at the 130 level and the max at 230. I would like to make an analysis of the changes that high attackers have caused to some of the previously top tier 145 based defensive tracks such as r145 and c145. But alas I need the help of other members to contribute data and personal experience, and when I compile enough evidence I would like to post a final conclusion.
( I apologize if a topic like this already exists, many of my topics happen to be rehashes of older topics)

F230CF/GCF isn't really an attack custom, it's more of Balance. It has attack and stamina: E230 isn't usd in any "attack" customs, hardly ever. The only one I've seen is Reviser Dragooon E230GCF and it isn't top-tier.

BD145 and E230 is the only Defense tracks there are. There's already combos like Wyvang Dragooon SA165R2F, that's main purpose is to defeat E230 combos. So your point is mute.

And I don't see how this correlates to the '145 height Defensive track are useless'.

(Jul. 30, 2014  4:40 AM)Thumbnail Wrote: What about tr145 on an basalt rf anti attack custom, it had a purpose not only could it keep the bey from scraping on the floor, and also absorb some blows from low attackers.
Bd was going to be talked about as well but I have still seen it in many customs
That's not the entire reason TR145 was used. It's a decently weighted track, it has decent weight distribution, and like you said is used to nullify low height attack, to an extent.
Jul. 30, 2014  5:11 AM
 
I'm aware of the weight of tr145, and see that I need to come at this from a different angle, still on the observation that 145 tracks have seen much less use recently, with the exception of bd, which is used in many different customs
Jul. 30, 2014  5:18 AM
 
Name another use any 145 track besides BD145 has, other tracks put forth better results. No big deal
Jul. 30, 2014  5:25 AM
 
The only track I see that could make a comeback, is H145. With Duo BGrin/W145WD, at that certain height, MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF/RDF could have a benefit woth the extra Smash-yness H145 gives. When I've used it, it has a problem KO'ing Duo BGrin(I'm not sure why; maybe my tips aren't aggresive enough), but the lighter weight would also allow to hold a sliding shoot better IMO.

Duo W145WD is at a height where the bottom Wyvang is barely making contact and the Bd145 is kind of useless at that point.

Edit: In Defensive Balance/Defense customs that is.
Jul. 30, 2014  5:26 AM
 
To me it kinda is, some games allow for very fluid meta games, the bb-10 and zero g stAndard do not, though you can change one or two parts in a combo, the core parts are still there, and the version with better parts will obviously win. Bd145 did a good job in making 145 based tracks second best, but with the introduction of taller tracks, 145 just isn't that good of a height, and as someone said, even bd is somewhat at risk due to e230
(Jul. 30, 2014  5:25 AM)Echizen Wrote: The only track I see that could make a comeback, is H145. With Duo BGrin/W145WD, at that certain height, MSF-H Wyvang Wyvang BD145RSF/RDF could have a benefit woth the extra Smash-yness H145 gives. When I've used it, it has a problem KO'ing Duo BGrin(I'm not sure why; maybe my tips aren't aggresive enough), but the lighter weight would also allow to hold a sliding shoot better IMO.

Duo W145WD is at a height where the bottom Wyvang is barely making contact and the Bd145 is kind of useless at that point.

Edit: In Defensive Balance/Defense customs that is.

H145 was actually one of those parts that would find a specialty custom every now and then, but I find it doesn't get to do to much unless I'm using wycang gryph, where it can make some decent contact in my attack customs. Though it admit these customs are very mediocre.
Jul. 30, 2014  5:42 AM
 
8 145 lower heights(17%)
17 145(9BD145)(36%-19%BD145)
22 145+(8 F230 and E230 combos)(47% &17%)

47 total

That's the track heights on the tier list. 36% 145 height, 47% 145+ combos, 17% lower than 145. 19% of the tier list utilzes BD145. 17% utilizes F230 or E230 variant.

So, you claim 230 combos make 145 height combos and lower obselete? Well, 220-230 height combos are only 17% of the meta, which is equal to the total amount of 145 lower tracks.

So that means 16/47(Factoring BD145) or 34% of the meta is actually 145 height or lower. Then you add in the other(Non-F230/E230/BD145 combos). So, 30/47 are 'useless combos'. So, a track that makes up 64% of the meta, is outclassed? So saying theyve become useless by a track that's only being used in 17% of the meta is completely false. And BD145 only makes up a 19%, of the meta, so saying it outclasses all the other 145 height tracks and lower is absurd.


In May 2012(Most recent Tier List before F230 and E230), 16% of the combos used a 230 variant. There was a 1% increase in 2 years!! That's hardly any at all, and there's been twice an many combo added now, than from two years ago, so I'm astonished the difference isnt by 15%!! Much less 1%.

Also in May 2012, there were a 19% usage of BD145 combos. And now there's still 19%. The number has stayed the exact same. So, saying BD145 outclasses 145 more, than it did 2 years ago, is incredibly untrue.
Jul. 30, 2014  5:51 AM
 
Bd145 does in fact outclass many other tracks, but thank you for the data as it does give me some ideas. Also we aren't talking about -145 here, just 145 specifically. Again thanks this is more the discussion I wanted, I haven't been in the meta since basalt was top tier (I believe it is still good though) I wanted to make this topic as a way to discuss and debate the impact of the current top tracks on the metas diversity as a whole.
Jul. 30, 2014  5:57 AM
 
According to my data, it doesn't. Uncertain You can't use BD145 on any Stamina combos, or Attack combos. If we take out -145 it's 50% 145 height and 50% 230 height. (20% BD145, and 15% E230 and F230). So according to you, the most OP parts outclass so many things yet, they only take up 35% of the meta. And that's not even including the other 7 combos you left out, becuase they were unimportant.

As for the second part, I love that idea, but you should change the thread title and put some of the things I've said in the OP.
Jul. 30, 2014  6:03 AM
 
I think the point I'm trying to stress is that bd145 is one of the most used tracks. But I understand where you are coming from as well, and tomorrow will edit the OP with some real data. Hopefully we can get win rates and such, but in all truth it is hard to find the victor among parts, as they have different uses. Thank you for your time echizen I will credit you as well
Jul. 30, 2014  5:30 PM
 
8 145 lower heights(17%)
17 145(9BD145)(36%-19%BD145)
22 145+(8 F230 and E230 combos)(47% &17%)

47 total

That's the track heights on the tier list. 36% 145 height, 47% 145+ combos, 17% lower than 145. 19% of the tier list utilzes BD145. 17% utilizes F230 or E230 variant.

So, you claim 230 combos make 145 height combos and lower obselete? Well, 220-230 height combos are only 17% of the meta, which is equal to the total amount of 145 lower tracks.

So that means 16/47(Factoring BD145) or 34% of the meta is actually 145 height or lower. Then you add in the other(Non-F230/E230/BD145 combos). So, 30/47 are 'useless combos'. So, a track that makes up 64% of the meta, is outclassed? So saying theyve become useless by a track that's only being used in 17% of the meta is completely false. And BD145 only makes up a 19%, of the meta, so saying it outclasses all the other 145 height tracks and lower is absurd.


In May 2012(Most recent Tier List before F230 and E230), 16% of the combos used a 230 variant. There was a 1% increase in 2 years!! That's hardly any at all, and there's been twice an many combo added now, than from two years ago, so I'm astonished the difference isnt by 15%!! Much less 1%.

Also in May 2012, there were a 19% usage of BD145 combos. And now there's still 19%. The number has stayed the exact same. So, saying BD145 outclasses 145 more, than it did 2 years ago, is incredibly untrue.


I re-did my post because I realized I was looking at the wrong list. >.>
Jul. 30, 2014  5:38 PM
 
Well, the combinations on the tier list don't necessarily define the metagame. They are competitive customs, but whether or not they're used in tournament play in a specific region is still a vital piece of information you don't have.

145 Tracks aren't used very often in NC, but that's because Attack and Defense are (unfortunately) rarely used here. It's almost completely Stamina combinations, mostly F230 (we're talking STD here), and partially a mix of SA165 and Bearing Drive (which is the equivalent of a 160-height Track using WD/EWD. BTW).

But that's just because everyone SPAMs F230, and nobody has the guts to play Attack. XD

The 3 most "threatening" Tracks in the game are pretty obvious right now TBH. SA165, BD145, and F230. Nearly every combination used in today's Standard meta use one of those 3 Tracks (unless they're using B : D, in which case they don't have a Track anyway).

I don't know if there's much of a reason for this thread, and to be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out what exactly your goal is for this discussion. If we're discussing which Tracks are the most threatening, then the answer is pretty obvious. SA165, BD145, and F230 for Standard, and SA165, F230 and E230 for Zero-G. If we're discussing which heights are the most threatening, then there is no answer. Any Track height can beat any other Track height. It all depends on the rest of the parts on the Beyblade.

The only overwhelmingly threatening Track in the game right now is F230 in Zero-G format, but that's more a result of the Track's gimmick, rather than its height.

230 will never make shorter heights obsolete. Where there's a 230 Stamina combination, there's a 145-height Attack combination to take it down, and an SA165/B : D spin-stealer waiting around the corner to clean up the mess.
Jul. 30, 2014  9:06 PM
 
I don't like nc tourneys, just sayin'. But I really don't know what the goal of the thread is anymore, the original point I was making is that less 145 based tracks are being used as a result of e230 and f230, but his is clearly untrue. What I really wanted was to establish an analysis of the meta game with the introduction of taller tracks, but I sorta failed. If anything has happened 80 -100 tracks have become rare in many settings.
Jul. 30, 2014  9:13 PM
 
(Jul. 30, 2014  9:06 PM)Thumbnail Wrote: I don't like nc tourneys, just sayin'. But I really don't know what the goal of the thread is anymore, the original point I was making is that less 145 based tracks are being used as a result of e230 and f230, but his is clearly untrue. What I really wanted was to establish an analysis of the meta game with the introduction of taller tracks, but I sorta failed. If anything has happened 80 -100 tracks have become rare in many settings.

That is actually true, but the only reason is because of BD145 and SA165 and the abundance of them both. The only 85 track combo that's used is Phantom 85MF. Maybe we should look back to even before BD145 was used and compare it to how many 85-105 tracks were used. Maybe PM Kei or someoen with the older lists to compare. That would be interesting.
Jul. 30, 2014  9:14 PM
 
I'm sure kei has them or maybe black dragon, I will get back to you on that
Echizen how many of the -145 tracks were s130? Just asking