World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade General

Thoughts and concerns on Single Bey Format?

May. 01, 2021  5:28 PM
 
Hello WBO. I wanted to propose some thoughts and get some viewpoints on how players feel about the Single Bey Format versus other styles like Pick 3 Choose 1 or Full Deck Format for initial of a tournament, or even WBBA 3v3 format.
 
This topic came up at my last event and honestly has been something heavy on my mind. I enjoy battling, my whole family does, but there are major issues we run into with the Single Bey Format. 

For 1 its the "scouting" some players do to get an unfair advantage for a match. I get that we should definitely hide our combos before showing them to a judge or opponent, but it's tough sometimes and with young kids they aren't thinking of being super secretive with their Beys, they just want to play. Some players will scope out or roam to see their opponents combo and even if this is against the rules, it still happens and judges and/or organizers can't catch everything. Players bringing 2 beys in their pocket and then last second choosing is an issue too. Like I said, it's really hard on young kids who have no thoughts on discretion and get hard countered by others.
 
Second issue is the "major guessing game". If you're not scouting you are guessing, "what will my opponent use" and that can hurt skillful and tactical players if they guess wrong. This may not be that bad but I've witnessed great players just be SUPER unlucky. They play fair and straight up and just have a bad day with their choices. Strategy in Single Bey Format is heavily outweighed by chance, luck or scouting in my honest opinion.
 
I want to mention some of my thoughts on solutions also, instead of just outlining problems. These are some alternative thoughts and please let me know if you agree or think I'm just crazy. 
 
1. P3C1: I like this idea because it doesn’t stray too much from what the WBO is already doing. The difference is that it eliminates the unfair advantageous that some players get. True, you can still try to scout out your opponents three combos but it’s a lot less likely to know what they will choose or have a single Bey to counter 3 Beys. It’s a mind game and sometimes luck of the draw. It’s a lot more fair and less complicated for new players. It will also slowly introduce them to strategy.

2. WBO Deck for entire tournament phases: I love Deck format. Honestly I think this would be The Best method to employ. It teaches strategy. Helps to eliminate “some” unfair advantageous. The only downfall I see with this is time, but honestly the time it takes to get bladers ready with a single Bey can take forever as well. If you have a legit deck you can just GO AND PLAY! Overall though I’m onboard for full deck. The nerd dad side of me likes this as well because even though there is no perfect Beyblade I can make my custom deck and have it as my own. I think a lot of players would enjoy that, especially new ones.

3. WBBA 3v3: I think the WBBA format is efficient. When I started Four-Gaming tournaments that is exactly what we did for the finals stage. However we ran into issues with the freedom of strategy. It’s less strategy on countering if you just number your Beys blindly of your opponents. It can also be tough for newer players who won’t have 3 efficient combos. But it does work for fairness.

All in all I like solution 2 then 1 then 3. Agree or disagree, please share your thoughts and hopefully we can bring this up to staff to possibly get something changed or stay the same if that is what the community wants.
May. 01, 2021  5:43 PM
 
Number 2 is definitely my favorite, I also love doing deck matches. At my last tourney I did a couple of deck matches out side of the Tournament and had a lot of fun.
May. 01, 2021  5:50 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  5:43 PM)LJ-Blader Wrote: Number 2 is definitely my favorite, I also love doing deck matches. At my last tourney I did a couple of deck matches out side of the Tournament and had a lot of fun.

That’s how we practice at home. Helps us to understand countering and maximizing our decks Smile
May. 01, 2021  6:02 PM
 
I'm not too sure if scouting as in watching other player's matches is against the rules. Every tournament type game has scouting in it from sports to tcgs.
That's just the nature of the beast. The one problem I have faced is the "Players bringing 2 beys in their pocket and then last second choosing is an issue too." except i think its more like multiple beyblades. They watch the opponent as they come up with their beyblade in their hands and then they choose one from their pocket. I've seen this attempted by so many players at several events and its never the kids, its always the experienced players.It's really annoying and definitely against the rules. That's why you always hear me stressing to newer player's to keep their beyblade hidden until both players are the judge.
One way I've combated this is in the pre-tournament announcements for the first stage as you know I mention "When you are called up, only bring one beyblade. Do not bring extra beyblades in any pockets for any reason. If you come with more than one beyblade you will receive a warning. If you come up again with multiples you will be reported to OP." I have given out several warnings since I've started organizing but I'm sure some have gotten past me.
One thing I liked at a previous tournament is when RayneAvalon came with the combo sheets, each player came up with their combo hidden and the judge wrote it down. That did make the tournament way longer than the usual 2 hours though...

As far as your suggestions, P3C1 is definitely the one I'd say, so much strategic potential.
May. 01, 2021  6:11 PM
 
froztz I agree. The scouting when watching players compete is cool. That is a necessity I think to view your opponents play style. My issue though is a young kid walks up is ready at the stadium. Their opponent approaches, sees the young kids bey and then bust a U-Turn lol and repick. It’s not the worst thing but it is annoying lol
May. 01, 2021  6:26 PM
 
Well by rules Beyblade selection isn’t supposed to occur until both players are across from each other. At that point they turn around and pick their Beyblades. Now in tournaments that rarely happens, players just bring their combos up which is why I started making that announcement.
May. 01, 2021  6:36 PM
 
That’s very true. P3C1 would be legit also as you’ve said. Something will work out I’m sure
May. 01, 2021  6:40 PM
 
My preference for 1st stage would be in this order:
1) WBO deck format
2) WBBA 3v3
3) P3C1

For my 1)WBO deck format, we actually get to shorten the rulebook for once haha. Also, this will serve as training players for the finals. Frankly, this format is so good that I think all players should get to experience it immediately.  

For my 2) WBBA 3V3, I can see that as the only way to use spin direction change in the WBO for the burst generation. The current WBO single bey format and even the deck format just makes spin direction change too powerful. Spin direction change is still very powerful for sure, but it is much more tame in the WBBA deck formats where TT now only allow one spin direction change bey. I have always said it is a shame that the WBO can’t allow players to use the best gimmick in the game in Beyblade Burst.

For 3) P3C1, I have already said much in the past.  I still like it a lot and have done test events with it that ran very well.  I like it, but I just don’t like it as much as my 1) and 2) .
May. 01, 2021  7:36 PM
 
I like the idea of deck format but I do worry about the length of time this could add to opening rounds.

Maybe there is a happy medium, like a 2 bey deck in the opening rounds & 3 in the finals?

This way its either switch or stay then get ready to play. Cuts the deliberating down by a 3rd and two beys still gives you plenty of coverage vs various types.
May. 01, 2021  7:50 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  7:36 PM)SupaDav03 Wrote: I like the idea of deck format but I do worry about the length of time this could add to opening rounds.

Maybe there is a happy medium, like a 2 bey deck in the opening rounds & 3 in the finals?

This way its either switch or stay then get ready to play. Cuts the deliberating down by a 3rd and two beys still gives you plenty of coverage vs various types.

This is a great idea. I prefer deck the most as well but time is the only downfall I see with it for the initial stage. Having 2 combos still leaves a lot open as far as launch style and countering.
May. 01, 2021  7:56 PM
 
I love the pitches, I would agree with SuperDav I think having 2 in the opening round and 3 in the finals works out perfectly for that idea. (Should be fine time wise) 

I do really like the idea of the deck format but in the opening rounds, it makes players think more and also would make it interesting since many people usually pick one combo usually a safe combo having 2 would certainly make people think more.

It also allows players to have time and create and experiment with more combos, so I'm all for the deck idea.
May. 01, 2021  7:59 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  7:50 PM)StayCool Wrote:
(May. 01, 2021  7:36 PM)SupaDav03 Wrote: I like the idea of deck format but I do worry about the length of time this could add to opening rounds.

Maybe there is a happy medium, like a 2 bey deck in the opening rounds & 3 in the finals?

This way its either switch or stay then get ready to play. Cuts the deliberating down by a 3rd and two beys still gives you plenty of coverage vs various types.

This is a great idea. I prefer deck the most as well but time is the only downfall I see with it for the initial stage. Having 2 combos still leaves a lot open as far as launch style and countering.

I believe deck throughout would also foster more risk-taking & creativity with combos in Swiss/RR rounds. I know I would personally use parts/combos I might not normally consider for opening rounds if deck were an option. 

To me, that’s good for the game & community.
May. 01, 2021  8:10 PM
 
I hadn’t thought of that but it’s true. My eldest son make a ton of “unique” one time combos that work great but aren’t META so he’s timid to try them out. Deck could open the door for creativity
May. 01, 2021  8:24 PM
 
So I want to start off with all three of these “solutions” are very good. I see the benefits as well as the problems with each. However, I feel that the amount of problems each have are a lot less than the current way things are done.
Now my order would probably be P3C1, WBO deck then WBBA 3v3.

First let’s talk about why for me WBBA 3v3 is my least liked idea. It honestly boils down to the randomness of the order in which you and your opponent number your beys. When done this way it’s not as random as 1v1 but it still high up there. You could order yours in a way where by chance your opponent ordered theirs in a way that each one completely countered you. (Even though those odds are less than a 1v1 they are still there.) and that is really the main reason I pick this one last. But I would still pick it over 1v1.

Next let’s talk about WBO deck format. While I think this format is great for the finals I feel like if it’s the same format for Swiss it take away the flare of the finals/top cut being the highlight of the tournament. Unless you want to do it where they only go to 3 points. However, the WBO deck format really isn’t suited for just going to 3 points. All and all though this is a format for Swiss I can get behind. I do most of my testing in deck format to come up with the best deck that I can. I try using “safe” combos for Swiss, but there are hard counters to them and if there is a popular combo that hard counters that “safe” combo you’re just gonna have a bad day. We all know how deck format works and we all know what to expect when playing it.

Finally let’s talk about P3C1. I actually like this option a lot more than the others. This format I feel just has all the right moves in all the right places. When you present your deck to each other that gives the players a chance to think about what combo from their deck gives them the most optimal chance at winning. Like let’s say 1 of my combos has a high chance at beating 2 of my opponents options, but will lose to their 3rd, then another of my combos will only have a high chance to beat their 3rd combo, and my last one just couldn’t win against any of them. This is where the skill of the players knowing parts and how they interact will come into play. Because it’s obvious that my best option would be to use the combo that can beat 2 of my opponents combos. However, for my opponent their best option is to use their 3rd combo because it could beat my first as well as my third. And then the mind games happen, where because I’m expecting them to think that way I decide to go with my second combo because it has a good match up against their third. So in turn this format is highly dependent on skill over luck. Yes there is still luck involved. But I still feel that skill out ranks luck for this one.

So those were my thoughts on the formats that you gave that could possibly take over the Swiss 1v1 format. I personally would love to give these a try and test them out at events. But either way if the staff decide to keep with what we have then so be it. Good topic to talk about though. Next we should find out if the new DB stadium is gonna become the new standard stadium for tournaments! XD
May. 01, 2021  8:38 PM
 
CrisisCrusher07 Nice! P3C1 is definitely a chess match. I prefer deck more but the mind games is a bit more intense in P3C1. Especially when you look at it from your perspective. You’ll have to take the experience of your opponent into account as well, will they know what to use or will they just go with a safe combo? Do they understand the odds of their victory vs mine? It may give some a stress attack but I’m for it haha. Between deck and P3C1 would be the best for growth and tactics. Like you though I’ll still play regardless if a change is made or not. Thank you for the input
May. 01, 2021  8:47 PM
 
i’m very much a fan of options 1 and 2, but option 3 just feels like doing the same problem that’s trying to be fixed, but 3 times instead of just 1.
May. 01, 2021  8:53 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  8:47 PM)Friedpasta Wrote: i’m very much a fan of options 1 and 2, but option 3 just feels like doing the same problem that’s trying to be fixed, but 3 times instead of just 1.

As much as I like P3C1, I do agree with this.  A problem that deck formats solves is those nearly unwinnable match ups that one might get locked into.  We can argue that is part of the game, sure.  I just think the game would be more fun if players had more control in avoid getting locked into those type of situations.
May. 01, 2021  9:06 PM
 
I’m crossed between the 1 & 2 now after reading Crisiscrusher07 viewpoint. On one hand I’m thinking about the mental challenge that comes with P3C1. I know I’d love the method of trying to outthink your opponent before the battle even begins. On the other hand I’m thinking about newer or younger players who may not think the same way or developed that cognitive mindset just yet. As competitive as I am I still do think of new and young players before myself. Without them Beyblade would have no future.
May. 01, 2021  9:18 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  9:06 PM)StayCool Wrote: I’m crossed between the 1 & 2 now after reading Crisiscrusher07 viewpoint. On one hand I’m thinking about the mental challenge that comes with P3C1. I know I’d love the method of trying to outthink your opponent before the battle even begins. On the other hand I’m thinking about newer or younger players who may not think the same way or developed that cognitive mindset just yet. As competitive as I am I still do think of new and young players before myself. Without them Beyblade would have no future.

 I think we can also look to the WBBA for some data.  Official Beyblade hosted by TT are limited in Japan to “elementary school age” kids.  I am just going to call this age ~6-12.  Most of the WBBA official events are deck format.  I believe the at least the highest level tournaments are.  Some of the younger competitors are just incredible and the best players.  The footage of the past Asian Championships are a good showing of how some of the youngest Competitors can be the best.
May. 01, 2021  9:29 PM
 
Very true, I’ve been swayed though Shindog. I think my final thoughts are P3C1 for Swiss and deck for finals. Like I said in the initial post P3C1 will still help younger and honestly all players become great strategist. P3C1 would make things move a little quicker also. Making it to deck/finals will be an honor or mental victory lol. My son tend to out strategize me sometimes also which is a proud dad moment. Both methods are fair across the board leaving less to chance or luck. Anyone that comes to an event will definitely leave with more knowledge they had when they came in whether new or experienced. Having differentiation between Swiss and Finals format may be more intriguing too versus only having deck throughout. Idk, just my thoughts.
May. 01, 2021  9:39 PM
 
(May. 01, 2021  9:29 PM)StayCool Wrote: Very true, I’ve been swayed though Shindog. I think my final thoughts are P3C1 for Swiss and deck for finals. Like I said in the initial post P3C1 will still help younger and honestly all players become great strategist. P3C1 would make things move a little quicker also. Making it to deck/finals will be an honor or mental victory lol. My son tend to out strategize me sometimes also which is a proud dad moment. Both methods are fair across the board leaving less to chance or luck. Anyone that comes to an event will definitely leave with more knowledge they had when they came in whether new or experienced. Having differentiation between Swiss and Finals format may be more intriguing too versus only having deck throughout. Idk, just my thoughts.
In the end, my opinion is that all three choices are better than the single bey format.  I personally don’t see a big importance for the finals to be very different than 1st stage.  For the most part, Most sports do not make it different, besides maybe making it a series.  Most TCG/CCGs don’t really make it all that different.
May. 01, 2021  9:42 PM
 
Full deck would be great but too long, CrisisCrusher07 view point is exactly what I mean by strategic potential. When you think about it, the first match of deck format is just P3C1. I do think P3C1 is better for newer/inexperienced player, they have a chance depending on the combos they bring. When there's experienced players in deck format it can come down to who choose the right bey to begin with and got the first point. However in my opinion deck format is way less forgiving to new players, I mean yea they have the option of switching but majority of time newer/inexperienced players do not understand match ups and end up switching to the wrong combo. So even if they got the first point the experienced player still has a way greater chance of winning.
May. 01, 2021  9:44 PM
 
Like you I agree that these will be better than the single, there’s too many flaws. Whatever the staff chooses, if anything, I’ll be happy with. Incorporating legit strategy into the overall system will be AMAZING!!!
May. 01, 2021  9:52 PM
 
One other factor that I hope ppl can discuss is the implication of the format we play on parts that are  banned for balance reasons.  In vintage formats like burst limited and classic, there are many “LAD”parts that are banned or are under scrutiny to be banned.  How do you all think P3C1, WBO deck, and WBBA deck will affect parts needing to be banned to keep balance in the format?  

Also, would the three different systems affect the bans differently?
May. 01, 2021  11:32 PM
 
That is another thing to bring up. In most TCG games for their standard format they ban or limit cards. Do people think or feel that some parts should be band in standard play? How long has parts like Xtend+ dominated or parts like Drift given a very unfair advantage in the opposite spin match ups?
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