The Case of Unbanning 4D Duo (Attack Mode)

4D Duo (Attack Mode)

Hey guys, welcome the the 4D Duo (Attack Mode) thread. As you can see in the standard format Duo (Stamina Mode) is top tier. But, what about Duo in Attack Mode? Duo in Attack Mode have an oval shape like Basalt (but with a bump at one side) and does drain all the spin power like Attack Type beyblades. Plus what makes Duo have an aggressive attack is the weight distribution. So in standard format nobody even bother using attack mode at that point.

Without further ado I've done loads a testing for the night....

Note: Duo have heavy recoil

Mirror Test

Both Launched at 80% Scythe went first then Duo
MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 230MB

DL: 0
SL: 20 (All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Earth Leone 230MB

DL: 0
EL: 20 (All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
MF-L Duo Leone 145WD Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 145WD

DL: 3 (All KO)
SL: 17 (All OS)
Win Rate: 15%
Summary: Scythe does have some recoil which is why it was KO'd

MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Earth Leone 145WD

DL: 1 (1 KO)
EL: 19 (All OS)
Win Rate: 5%
Defense Test

Duo launched at 50%, Pegasus launched at 100% banked
Duo launched first then Pegasus
MF-H Duo Leone GB145RSF Vs. MF-H Pegasus CH120 (145 height) R2F

DL: 12 (4 KO 8 OS)
Peg: 8 (7 KO 1 OS)
Win Rate: 60%
Summary: Like a normal defense set up it doesn't seems to prone a problem too much for attack type, but can be easily beaten with a stamina type...

MF-H Duo Leone GB145RSF Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 230MB
DL: 1 (1 KO)
SL: 19 (All OS)
Win Rate: 5%
Anti-Attack
Both straight launched and at 100%
Duo launched first then Pegasus
MF-H Duo Leone GB145RF Vs. MF-H Pegasus CH120 (145 height) R2F
DL: 2 ( All KO)
Peg: 18 (4 KO 14 OS)
Win Rate: 10%
Summary: Anti-Attack didn't work, as topic sentence says it does drain a lot of spin power


Stamina Test

MF-L Duo Leone W145WD Vs. MF-M Meteo L Drago (Absorb/Assault Mode? Please correct me) F230GCF
DL: 3 (All KO)
MLD: 17 ( All OS)
Win Rate: 15%
MF-L Duo Leone W145WD Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 230MB
DL: 0
SL: 20 (All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
Attack Test

MF-H Duo Leone GB145RF Vs. MF-H Scythe Aquario TR145RSF
DL: 0
SA: 20 ( All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
Summary: Scythe was just a tank.....

MF-H Duo Leone GB145RF Vs. MF-L Scythe Aquario 230MB
DL: 0
SA: 20 ( All OS)
Win Rate: 0%


In full summary, Duo Attack Mode didn't pose too much an issue to me in my opinion. Except Duo being defense against an attack type may be a bit an issue but that how defense supposed to work right? That's all the test i have for the night.
While not totally useless the overall win rate is not high enough for me to justify using it. I say the stats could allow the unbanning of this. But o really don't think it's worth it since the judge will have to check and not that many people are going to be using this wheels mode. Thanks for the testing though. The results are interesting.
(Sep. 08, 2015  8:02 AM)Zoroaste Wrote: The weight alone though would make it a defensive beast against attack I would think
of course the weight is an issue but the weight distribution changes the way it spins. Which I would call a suicide combo all together. It's almost like throwing out Libra once again but doesn't even last long.

Get the point eh?

Even tho it may be too beast for attack but hey that how defense supposed to work right? You can always use stamina type to beat it normally.
Well of course I get the point, but you wouldn't want to make attack useless altogether against it. You want defense wheels that will hold up against attack most of the time, not ones that completely own them. That's my opinion anyway. I think attack, if used right, should be the strongest because it requires skill and not just launching in the middle
If the part itself isn't useful in a mode because is unbalanced, so, it's not worthy of use, It's true it could be unbanned, but it's worthy of it?

What I mean is... you have to specify it's 4D in a certain mode, something that may be troublesome for some people too fully understand when they start playing competitively, but also for a part that doesn't affect the metagame positively

I get the idea of variety but I don't get what good could come off of that .-.

EDIT: I want to state that I still think the test is valuable because it adds knowledge of how much potential Duo has and that I appreciate that OP tested it for us Smile
First off I'd like everyone to stop saying "The judge has to check the part" as a part of the argument of why Duo (Attack Mode) shouldn't be unbanned. Honestly it's really bad evidence as to why you don't want the part legalized.

On another note I really wish you would've tested more heights of defense such as 230 and 90. Mid-Height Defense is alright but I've seen way more LTDC's and HTDC's top events and the generally put up better results.

(Sep. 08, 2015  5:44 AM)Stars Wrote: Summary: Like a normal defense set up it doesn't seems to prone a problem too much for attack type, but can be easily beaten with a stamina type...
Don't all defense usually get beaten by stamina types? That shouldn't be part of your argument to why Duo (Attack Mode) should be unbanned if it is supposedly good at defense. That's like saying "We can bring Revizer Revizer BD145 RDF to Limited because it can easily be beaten by a stamina type".

(Sep. 08, 2015  5:44 AM)Stars Wrote: Both Launched at 80% Scythe went first then Duo
MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 230MB

DL: 0
SL: 20 (All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Earth Leone 230MB

DL: 0
EL: 20 (All OS)
Win Rate: 0%
MF-L Duo Leone 145WD Vs. MF-L Scythe (Metal Fury) Leone 145WD

DL: 3 (All KO)
SL: 17 (All OS)
Win Rate: 15%
Summary: Scythe does have some recoil which is why it was KO'd

MF-L Duo Leone 230MB Vs. MF-L Earth Leone 145WD

DL: 1 (1 KO)
EL: 19 (All OS)
Win Rate: 5%
These results seem quite ridiculous to believe. I really wish I hard a launcher to test this my self but currently I don't. Besides the fact it is slightly off balance it still should have gotten at least a win or two because of weight against the 230 MB mirror match. Also I still think it should've smoked the 145 WD combos just because of the height advantage plus the fact that it weighs a ton. It should've easily knocked them off balance and won by OS.


(Sep. 08, 2015  5:44 AM)Stars Wrote: Duo launched at 50%, Pegasus launched at 100% banked
Duo launched first then Pegasus
MF-H Duo Leone GB145RSF Vs. MF-H Pegasus CH120 (145 height) R2F

DL: 12 (4 KO 8 OS)
Peg: 8 (7 KO 1 OS)
Win Rate: 60%
I kinda see your logic of weak launching Duo, but then again thats more than likely why Pegasus picked up an OS. Not to mention I feel like the weak launching technique really doesn't do that much unless your in opposite spin directions. Also how aggressive is your RSF?

(Sep. 08, 2015  5:44 AM)Stars Wrote: In full summary, Duo Attack Mode didn't pose too much an issue to me in my opinion. Except Duo being defense against an attack type may be a bit an issue but that how defense supposed to work right? That's all the test i have for the night.
But we don't want to good of a defense type in the game. That's slightly how I felt when MF-H Libra 230 RS was running around. It can lose to stamina yes, but having such high win rates against some attack combinations isn't very healthy for the meta game. I honestly would like to see HTDC and LTDC though I feel like those could slam attack really bad. Is anyone else willing to try some of Stars tests that he performed to see some comparison results?
I don't think Duo attack mode deserve an unban. Duo Metal Fury does better in any case. you want to unbanned a parts with one mode accepted and it change absolutly nothing in the game play of limited... I think its useless. It's my opinion. on the other hand well done for your test.
Before i post my tests i just want to say that there is no way Duo will ever be unbanned even in attack mode. Just because it sucks in Stamina doesn't mean it's not an amazing defense wheel which would totally put attack in the trash. I also think Duo DF105RSF can KO basically any limited combo that's a mid track combo and below which therefore makes it not unban worthy.

Opinions aside...

Equipment:
BB-10 Attack Type Beystadium
Silver Grip + Beylauncher LR + Grip Rubber + Launcher Rubber + Beypointer + Metal Assist + Angle Compass

MF-H Duo [ATK] Cygnus 230MB vs MF-H Scythe Cygnus 230MB
*Launch alternation every 10 rounds*
Duo: Wins 10/20 (All KO's)
Scythe: Wins 10/20 (2 KO's, 8 OS')
Duo Win Rate 50%

MF-F Duo [ATK] Cygnus SW145 [DEF] EWD vs MF-F Duo Cygnus SW145 [DEF] EWD
*Launch alternation every 10 rounds*
Duo TT: Wins 8/20 (All KO's)
Duo H: Wins 12/20 (All OS')
Duo TT Win Rate 40%
(Sep. 08, 2015  8:33 PM)loyd87 Wrote: I don't think Duo attack mode deserve an unban. Duo Metal Fury does better in any case. you want to unbanned a parts with one mode accepted and it change absolutly nothing in the game play of limited... I think its useless. It's my opinion. on the other hand well done for your test.
If it doesn't drastically warp the format even better. I don't see why a part would have to do something big to be unbanned. Look at Jade for example, it was unbanned way more than a year ago and has hardly done anything in limited format. Sorry to go off on a little rant there but if a part turns out to be bad enough that it should be legal in limited. Even if it doesn't do anything it might have a little creativity here and there.

(Sep. 08, 2015  8:44 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: Before i post my tests i just want to say that there is no way Duo will ever be unbanned even in attack mode. Just because it sucks in Stamina doesn't mean it's not an amazing defense wheel which would totally put attack in the trash. I also think Duo DF105RSF can KO basically any limited combo that's a mid track combo and below which therefore makes it not unban worthy.

Opinions aside...

Equipment:
BB-10 Attack Type Beystadium
Silver Grip + Beylauncher LR + Grip Rubber + Launcher Rubber + Beypointer + Metal Assist + Angle Compass

MF-H Duo [ATK] Cygnus 230MB vs MF-H Scythe Cygnus 230MB
*Launch alternation every 10 rounds*
Duo: Wins 10/20 (All KO's)
Scythe: Wins 10/20 (2 KO's, 8 OS')
Duo Win Rate 50%

MF-F Duo [ATK] Cygnus SW145 [DEF] EWD vs MF-F Duo Cygnus SW145 [DEF] EWD
*Launch alternation every 10 rounds*
Duo TT: Wins 8/20 (All KO's)
Duo H: Wins 12/20 (All OS')
Duo TT Win Rate 40%
Thanks for testing this out some more 1234beyblade! Duo (Attack Mode) seemed to stand up to other combinations way better than Stars tests showed it to be. Interesting that both your tests really differed so much to Duo (Attack Mode) getting smoked to 50/50. We really do need another person to try this I guess.

Although that already seems a bit troublesome to me that Duo (Attack Mode) put up those results on a stamina set up. The fact that it was able to get those KO's were quite ridiculous. About how much more did the other stamina combinations out spin Duo (Attack Mode) when they won?
(Sep. 08, 2015  8:46 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: About how much more did the other stamina combinations out spin Duo (Attack Mode) when they won?

The hasbro duo won by a very significant amount of spin, like it didn't even start wobbling haha. I should mention that i did a sliding shoot for both scythe and duo, in the second test i slid shot duo TT only.
sorry My bad explanation. I would like to say Duo is considered one of the best metal Wheel of MFB, even against synchrome, in all format(standard and zero-g). even if its attack mode isn't so usefull.

I think if we have to unbanned is attack mode for limited, we mostly re-add Libra and Omega to balance the game.

in that view of unbanning Duo attack mode, we may look at Variares, Gravity, Hell and Basalt.(there no more used in other format. well I not seeing this from a long time since the ban list is up.)

I think we are better with the Hollow version of Duo. more balanced for that format IMO.

Duo is slightly too heavy, else we will unbanned all the heavier metal wheel already banned.
My two cents as a non-MFB player: banning just a mode of a part seems problematic for the same reasons that combinations of parts haven't been banned — it's too difficult to enforce. Unless allowing Duo to be used for Attack-mode only would significantly improve Limited as a play format, it's hard to imagine it happening.
(Sep. 08, 2015  10:03 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: My two cents as a non-MFB player: banning just a mode of a part seems problematic for the same reasons that combinations of parts haven't been banned — it's too difficult to enforce. Unless allowing Duo to be used for Attack-mode only would significantly improve Limited as a play format, it's hard to imagine it happening.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly. It's not worth unbanning it for one mode, which is not only more complex for casual players, but for the judges, as well.
I got the complete opposite results.
MF-H Duo Leone GB145RF vs MF-L Scythe Cancer 230MB
Duo:17/20(17 KO)
Scythe:3/20(3 OS)
Duo win rate: 85%
I have a few reasons for why I think Duo TT should not be unbanned.


1) Regardless of what mode change there is, the fact remains the same. This wheel is heavier than every other wheel in the limited metagame. The weight of Duo at 42g~ is 31.25% heavier than the average of the other wheels at 32g~... And to put that in perspective Basalt at 46g~ is only 4g heaver than TT Duo. Also, the slight imbalance in attack mode (if any really) doesn't make it 'nerfed' enough to compete in the format. It's still TT Duo. It still has much lower recoil than any other wheel in the format.

I think the removal of Libra and Omega were a step in the right direction since their sheer weight and low recoil was what granted them such versatility (and I think Jade should go too for sake of clarity in saying "all 4D wheels banned"). Adding in another wheel heavy circular wheel similar to the one we just banned is really a step in the wrong direction and I don't think it's the answer.


2) If unbanning it promotes some form of advancement in terms of gameplay for the format then just maybe... but it doesn't. Aside from being heavy, what does it offer? Does it change how you play the game or think about the game? I think players are currently searching for an answer to attack being so powerful currently, but I don't think the answer is to add a specific mode of a specific wheel or something heavier.

I personally think there are many things that haven't been explored and many parts/combos that need testing. Maybe the answer is there... I personally feel there is a definite lack of creativity and exploration in a format that just begs to be found out with what is already there...


3) Also another point to make out is that this attack mode becomes less offset and oval as you use the wheel which can give competitive edge to more worn down Duos than others. A very worn down Duo in attack mode is much less of an oval and more so a circle than a brand new Duo in attack mode.


4) The confusion of the naming and having two completely Duo wheels in one format. It's a smaller point to make, but not only do you have a Duo Hasbro, but you have a TT Duo, and it's in a specific mode. It's all really confusing if you ask me...
Okay so I just fixed my string launcher (thanks ZachBob) and now I'm back with some testings! I was most worried about Duo's defensive abilities if we did bring it back so I decided to do some testing comparing it to other defense types. Enjoy!

During these tests my RSF was slightly aggressive and my RF is still worn (but still good).

Okay to start things off I threw an "alright" defender up first. Scythe isn't to bad at this job but it's certainly not the best. Let's see how it goes.

MF-H Scythe Cancer 85 RSF Wrote:MF-H Scythe Cancer 85 RSF vs MF-H Pegasis CH120 RF
Scythe: 3 (3 KO)
Pegasis: 17 (17 KO)
Scythe win rate : 15%
Detailed Results

As expected Pegasis creamed it. Remind me never to use Scythe for LTDC again. Now onto a banned wheel: Libra. Yes I know it is banned and you might ask why I am I including it then. Well if you do it is because Libra was a fairly powerful defense type when it was legal so I decided it would be a good part to compare Duo (Attack Mode) to.

MF-H Libra 85 RSF Wrote:MF-H Libra 85 RSF vs MF-H Pegasis CH120 RF
Libra: 12 (10 OS, 2 KO)
Pegasis: 8 (8 KO)
Libra win rate: 60%
Detailed Results

This was actually a really close game. Honestly either beyblade could have had a higher win rate than the other but Libra takes the cake. Okay so the past "best" metal wheel for defense just got 60% win rate against an attack, now lets see what Duo (Attack Mode) can do.

MF-H Duo Cancer 85 RSF Wrote:MF-H Duo Cancer 85 RSF vs MF-H Pegasis CH120 RF
Duo: 15 (10 OS, 5 KO)
Pegasis: 5 (5 KO)
Duo win rate: 75%
Detailed results

Ouch Pegasis kinda got beat up. Duo was really kinda to heavy to knock out not to mention it had some aggression to it. This was really a tough fight for Pegasis attack.

In conclusion I really think that Duo (Attack Mode) would be to unfair for limited format. It's just to heavy and I don't want to have something in the format that completely smashes attack like that. Imagine it on RS, that would be quite devastating. Hopefully this had made some people think twice about allowing Duo (Attack Mode) in limited format.
I really don't think this should be unbanned. It would take some more time for hosts to check if it is in attack mode and it would be way to OP for Limited. I don't know how you got these results.
Going to drop this here:

(Sep. 08, 2015  5:03 AM)Kei Wrote: I hate to totally shut down discussion when it comes to Limited Format, but ... Duo and Phantom are never getting unbanned. Period. Haha.

I don't understand how Duo was able to lose so badly against some of the other things on the list, from my testing, MF-H Duo Cancer (Attack mode) 230MB beat MF-H Scythe Cancer 230MB almost 100% of the time. Also, in your testings you've basically only proven that Duo Attack Mode is utterly useless (except the 60% against Pegasis), so are you trying to prove that it's good for Defense or that it's just useless and should be unbanned either way?

I'd really like us to focus on testing potentially new right spin attack/defense combos (not including this one). Since Libra and Omega are gone, we are completely lacking in those categories.
I have a hard time believing any 100% win rate in a match where heavy recoil is involved at all.
I think it's safe to say that this is not going to be unbanned. So can we just drop it?
MF-H Duo Aquario 90RF vs. MF Pegasis CH120RF
Duo Aquario: 16/20 (9 OS, 7 KO) 80% win rate.
Pegasis: 4/20 (ALL OS) 20% win rate.

MF-H Duo Aquario 230RS vs. MSF-H Dark Knight Girago CH120RF
Duo Aquario: 7/20 (6 OS, 1 KO) 35% win rate.
DK Girago: 13/20 (ALL KO) 65% win rate.

MF-H Duo Aquario 230RS vs. MF Pegasis CH120RF
Duo Aquario: 16/20 (ALL OS) 80% win rate.
Pegasis: 4/20 (ALL KO) 20% win rate.

Here are some tests I have done yesterday. Duo Aquario had done pretty insane against Pegasis, but was still no match for Dark Knight Girago. While the results against it definitely weren't amazing, I still find out preformed better than Libra 230RS against Dark Knight as it was a bit harder to get it outside the Tornado Ridge.

I think are definitely perks to unbanning Duo in Attack Mode, but at the same time there are also cons do doing so. There is a slight weight difference between Duo and Libra. Duo has amazing defense, on par or if not better than Libra's. At the same, it is way less versatile and should only be used for Defense. From what Stars had posted, it's garbage for both attack and stamina. Duo also sometimes runs the risk of being outspun by attack, too. I'd say this would definitely make defense better and at the same time, unlike Libra, not have an insane amount of versatility.

At the same time however, I do feel as if we ban or unban a piece, we do so as a whole; not in a certain mode. Personally, even now, I still can hardly tell a difference between the two modes.

Bladerguy2 Wrote:I think it's safe to say that this is not going to be unbanned. So can we just drop it?

This topic was still definitely worth bringing up though. Thanks for this Stars!