Hello World bladers,
This thread is somewhat similar to the "Why F230CF/GCF Breaks the Game," but with a more focused concentration on an actual rule change, rather than discussion on counters/tournament result discussion, etc..
Before I ensue with this thread, I would like to state something very important for you all to consider. No matter how neutrally I try to present points in this thread, I am, in fact, very biased against F230. Just something to keep in mind when reading. A second opinion would definitely benefit you after reading this if you wanted to get deeper into the subject. I implore users to read through the entire thread (or as much of it as possible) before taking a stance on the matter, in order to get an idea of what the opposing side is presenting.
I've written this thread because, honestly, this problem really needs to be dealt with. It's been debated for months and months now, and has become a problem in several major tournament areas, but alas, nothing official has been done about it yet. I am presenting the case for F230 to be banned from Zero-G format tournament play.
As most of you know, ever since it was first introduced into the tournament scene, the Track Free 230 (F230) from the BBG-26 Random Booster Vol. 3 Bandid Genbull F230TB has been completely dominating tournament statistics, and, in some cases, completely ravaging communities due to its unbelievable competitive application.
North Carolina (probably the area with the most developed Zero-G metagame in the world, due to its tendency to hold Zero-G format tournaments extremely frequently) was the first community to be hit with a major flood of F230 customs. After multiple experienced members discovered the part's potential paired with CF/GCF (specifically with Dragooon Synchroms), and discovered how to vastly increase its versatility through simple launch techniques, the part became basically utterly dominant over all other metagame-viable combination, and completely choked their use, becoming the only really competitive option in any given situation.
The effect of this dominance was tremendous. I have talked to people here who have actually quit (or come very close to it), simply because they did not own an F230, and saw no point in competing when they would inevitably lose in the end. It was nothing but F230 all day every day, and competing was hopeless unless you used F230 yourself. This is a large part of the reason NC's attendance rates plummeted for a long period of time last Autumn.
The next area to see an invasion of this Track, was Maryland, home of 3 of our top ten players (Arupaeo, Stars, and geetster99). In this area, before F230 was widely used in MD, a specific player named beymaster15963 got lucky enough to pull an orange F230 from a random booster. At his next event, he abused Dragooon F230CF the entire time, sweeping Arupaeo, geetster99, Stars, Tech, and Sniper, and taking 1st place undefeated.
This user had never placed in a WBO sanctioned tournament before, let alone taken first against such skilled players, but by abusing Dragooon F230CF, he was able to overcome some of the top players in the country (including the geetster99, who is currently the #1 player in the USA) effortlessly. That, my friends, should categorize any part as "overpowered."
This event is widely and solidly remembered and acknowledged as a significant event. The Maryland players have a set of terms that they have developed and use frequently within their community. One of these terms is:
Now, one important thing to be stated is that this event was held in the BB-10 Attack type stadium. This environment is significantly different than Zero-G, but F230CF/GCF's incredible spin-stealing abilities and difficulty to KO translate directly into Zero-G format, and produce the same problems in both formats. Nevertheless, this event triggered a lasting effect on Maryland's metagame.
Here in North Carolina, we had the privilege of having Maryland's own geetster99 down to compete with us. At the tournament, he stated:
Apparently, the dominance of F230 in this first event triggered a lasting reign of F230 dominance in the Maryland metagame that has not stopped for 9 months. The metagame is absolutely chock-full of F230 combinations all day everyday, and there is nothing to effectively stop it.
Another place on the East Coast of the US was hit with the F230 bomb as well. Although they usually do not post about their tournaments in depth, I have personally interviewed some of the bladers from Virginia, who have spoken to me about their feelings toward F230CF/GCF combinations.
Their quotes speak enough about their opinions on these combinations I do believe.
Another community that was hit recently, was the new booming region of Connecticut:
Later, concerning the Limited format event that proceeded this Zero-G event, he wrote:
Connecticut's dual-event was destroyed by F230CF/GCF, and the part has dominated the competition since.
This is the effect such a powerful part creates. The part is so utterly dominant, that some players will not even consider coming to a tournament without it. With this mindset, said part soon totally overruns a community. I am legitimately worried about Connecticut's meta ATM. I predict that, if something is not done about it, their events will be completely dominated by F230 consistently. These same types of events lead to its dominance in NC, which turned out to be a very big problem to say the least.
In short, NC and MD (two of the most active and competitive regions in the entire world) have already been completely overrun by F230 combinations. If skilled players are willing to abuse it (which is unfortunately the case), nothing here or in Maryland is really viable besides F230 combinations themselves. A similar situation seems to be formulating in Connecticut at the moment, and will probably soon develop into a real problem.
I have personally experienced a meta overrun by F230, and it's hard for me to go into depth about how shocking it was to see how effortlessly it dominated countless matches. Dark_Mousy won 5 tournaments in a row with it. He knew how to use it, had a good F230, and it made him virtually unstoppable in Zero-G format. Eventually, to compete with him, the rest of us had to being using F230 combinations as well. After that, it all became a huge mess. The aftermath has receded here mostly now, due to the fact that most of us have acknowledged the problem and stopped using it completely, but the problem only really heals with the absence of F230.
The only community where F230 has been used, but has apparently not completely overrun the community, is Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
I don't know why this is, and neither I nor any other player I've talked to has been able to narrow down exactly what we're doing differently, but this past Spring, at GBT2 Encore - Zero-G, Maryland players abused Dragooon F230 in Toronto, against Toronto players, and produced the same effect we've seen in so many East Coast events. F230 dominance.
That concludes our section on F230's current history in tournaments. Of the few areas where users have apparently abused F230, using it with the right mold of F230 and launching it correctly, there has been a shocking display of dominance.
Concerning the existence of counters for F230CF/GCF combinations (specifically Dragooon combinations), I have quite a lengthy statement written here.
I can almost guarantee that there is no user on this forum who has tried harder or longer than me to find an effective, competitive counter to F230CF/GCF combinations. It was the complete focus of my entire non-academic life for about 6 months. In short, I tried every concept I could possibly imagine, but nothing worked nearly well enough to be considered a counter. In all cases, simply by using a different launch technique, the F230 user could counter the combination. Even in most cases, said customs were not nearly viable against the rest of the metagame that it would aim to revive.
Furthermore, these are the same results the community has been getting when attempting to build counters. There was one point where most of the players on the site who owned F230 were simultaneously testing to find effective counters, but none of us could come up with anything near practical.
When you design a counter to a combination, to be a practical counter, it must consistently win against the combo it is attempting to counter, and it must also be competitive against at least a portion of the rest of the metagame.
These points are things people often forget. They flip out when they find something, and say "THIS HIGHLY LUCK-ORIENTED ATTACK TYPE I BUILT ACHIEVED 60% ON DRAGOOON F230!! IT LOST TO EVERYTHING ELSE AND IT ONLY WORKED ONCE BUT I GOT IT TO WIN I FOUND THE ULTIMATE COUNTER YAY!"
That is not an effective counter. It's honestly quite a pitiful presentation. It isn't consistent, and it isn't competitive against any of the rest of the meta.
A good example of this, would be L-Drago Destroy 230CS. This was a combination that Bluezee tested, back in 2011, as a potential counter to MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF. However, though this counter did work very effectively (which really isn't the case with any of the stated counters to F230), it was not what one would call "viable" against the rest of the metagame. If you got lucky enough to stare down MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF in a match with it, then great, but if the opponent pulled most anything else competitive, you were toast.
A second example would be Fang Lynx 100FB. Deikailo originally tested this a while back. It was supposed to counter Meteo L-Dragon CH120XF, MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF, and MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WF/MF. It did sort of decent against the three, but against anything else... er, it couldn't bring much of anything to the table against other competitive customs.
There are several examples of combinations like this from different time periods, but none of them saw any use because of how risky they were against the rest of the combinations in the game. As an end result, the customs were not countered, because the combinations used to beat them were otherwise unacceptable in a tournament scenario and saw no use.
A good example of a counter, would be MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF, which was (and still can be) used to counter the ever-versatile MF-H Flash Orion W145MF. It takes down the target consistently, and has qualities that can be used to win against other combinations effectively. That is what an efficient counter should look like.
Now that I've outlined the criteria a combination must meet to be a viable counter, let's look at the so called "counters" used against F230 so far by different people.
I'm going to have to list the launches to use with F230CF/GCF customs against different opponents. I'll be using the example beyblade _____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF (Dragooon F230CF/GCF are probably the most problematic form of competitive F230 customs, and the ones that have been messing with the meta the most).
If the correct launches listed here are used, testing and tournament experience from myself and multiple other NC bladers has shown that Dragooo F230CF/GCF can, and will, stop these customs easily. The launch is extremely important.
Honestly, the discussion we've had so far is so cluttered with results from bladers who do not know how to launch correctly, or have conducted incorrect testing, that it's hard to define who's experience is genuinely credible. Although other people have gotten results like this, I'm mostly going off results from people I know that I've actually witnessed/conducted myself.
My tournament/testing experience has pretty much totally debunked the claims that any of these customs are solidly effective, or even acceptably consistent.
Now, as a continuation of the list above, we have one more custom to list that is important to mention:
I would like to note that Dragooon F230 was at an extreme advantage here. I had a great shot at Dragooon TB. However, 95%, even with an advantage, is pretty solid evidence that it'll at least put up a serious fight against this in a tournament.
Dragooon TB is also utterly ineffective against most of the rest of the meta. Dragooon SA165's sole purpose is to act as a spin-equalizer. TB cannot do that with any impressive degree of effectiveness. This means that it does not meet the criteria for a good counter, even if you can get it to win against Dragooon F230CF/GCF.
That pretty much sums it up. None of the counters are consistent, and not all of them are even competitive combinations against the rest of the meta. They certainly do not meet the criteria of a good counter.
If anyone disagrees with what I've posted in this section, I strongly, strongly encourage you to perform the above tests or ones similar yourself, using the appropriate launches listed, and post them in this thread. Please do not argue against these results without providing your own.
I understand that some people have different experiences with the Track, and I respect that, but after all the testing I've done with this thing it's gonna take a lot more than word of mouth to convince me haha.
If the users posting results could also post videos, that would be even better (like, really awesome).
Now that we've looked at the current so-called "counters" to Dragooon F230, we should discuss what exactly makes a part "ban-worthy."
I have to compliment Ingulit on this quote, because it basically sums up exactly what an unbalanced meta looks like. The dominant custom or set of customs, and the scanty few counters that exist (except in the situation of F230, the list is not just small, but virtually nonexistent provided it is used correctly) are the only things used.
F230 definitely, beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, does this to any given meta where it is spammed. It has happened. It is still happening, and it will likely happen again in the future multiple times if nothing is done about it.
I'm making an entire subsection here for this statement, because it is so vitally important that it is certainly acceptable, and, in my opinion, necessary.
Another point people seem to miss, is that, to be ban-worthy, something must be unbeatable.
I literally cannot list for you guys all the times I've heard people say:
It doesn't have to be unbeatable. Libra was not unbeatable. Basalt was not unbeatable. They were simply dominant to the point that they created a very unhealthy environment for tournament players.
I'm really sorry I had to upsize and bold that statement. It's just such a common misconception among players that I needed to try to emphasize it a much as possible. F230 is just barely beatable, given the player guesses perfectly, predicts the opponent's launch techniques, and pulls no small amount of luck from the sidelines, but to say that it is not prominently unhealthy for the game is quite laughable to me to be perfectly honest
Even if you do think that some of the counters we discussed earlier are viable, the fact is that something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be ban-worthy. F230 is certainly "overpowered in general" from my point of view, and definitely ban-worthy to say the least.
If you want my personal opinion, for something to be "broken," there must be at least two "kinds" of competitive counters (meaning two combinations with different-ish applications), at the absolute bare minimum, and the situation must allow for other customs to be used relatively frequently as well.
This is not the case with F230. It is, by these definitions and the ones stated by Ingulit, utterly broken.
One last thing I would like to point out. Even if Dragooon F230 only hit 50% against the suggested counters shown so far, I would still consider it overpowered. Why? Because none of the counters are anywhere near consistent. Just because something can be beaten, doesn't mean it will, and if I pull a "counter" to my opponent's combination in a tournament, only to end up losing, I probably wouldn't try that custom again.
Beatable does not = Healthy. Unbeatable does not = Healthy. Consistently beatable with a certain variant of competitive custom = Healthy. This just isn't the situation. The few "counters" that exist for this custom aren't nearly consistent, and that poses a big problem.
Now, let's see some quotes from some of our experienced members and their thoughts on F230's dominance:
Here are some quotes that I received via PM from players who oppose F230's ban. I am going to post them to be fair with both sides (I will provide arguments against them, though,
)
My argument against this. 1) F230 is more than just a good part. Some things are better than others, yes, but nothing should be so much better than nearly everything that it cripples the entire meta. 2) No offense, but comparing Dragooon to F230 is just not proportionate. Dragooon just spins left. It isn't a problem (in fact, like I've told you before specifically, there are things in our meta Dragooon neutralizes that would be far too dominant otherwise. I'd say Dragooon actually benefits the meta). F230 is far more serious than Dragooon ever was. 3) If someone "poor" can take a tournament, that's bad. F230 takes away from the competitive aspect of the game. Beyblade is supposed to be a tactical, knowledge-intensive game. Not a game of who can buy the better stuff and spam it more (making an effort to obtain competitive parts is a large part of the game, but it shouldn't be the whole game in and of itself).
As for your tournament experiences, at Beyblade Revolution, hardly anybody used Dragooon F230 yet. You didn't have to deal with it. Even she you played Dragooon TB, you were running a big risk, because if the user had known how to launch it, there was a very good chance you would've lost (you also would've lost against most other things if he hadn't pulled F230). At the second tournament you mentioned, yes, you did win because of F230. You used it every single match, except for two or three where you used Dragooon BD145RDF.
The event you beat Dark in was BB-10. You KOed with LTAC. You can't do that in Zero-G. Plus, at that time the bladers in NC had pretty much boycotted F230 after what it did to our tournament environment. None of us except Dark had used it for a few weeks, so you didn't have to compete with it. It's easy to win without F230 if nobody else is using it.
Again, yes, Beyblade and most other games like it have always been dominated in part by those who own the best parts. However, in the case of F230, that aspect becomes the game itself. It's a game of who can buy an F230 first, who can spam it more, and whose F230 works better. There's no room for tactical or knowledge-intensive play, because not using F230 is far too big of a risk to consider.
Plus, in situations regarding parts besides F230, once you get them, you need to learn how to use them and compete tactically with other players who have the same parts. You don't just suddenly become virtually unstoppable. It takes work, testing, research, tournament experience and strategic planning to get the best out of your parts and overcome your opponent.
With F230, you just slap Dragooon CF/GCF on it and go. There's no strategic planning involved. Both you and your opponent know that F230 is the best (or, in many cases, only) shot they have. In an environment like that, it doesn't matter who is more knowledgeable or tactical. It's whoever gets lucky and wins the mirror match.
I understand that people spent well-earned money on their F230s (myself definitely included), but we're talking about the greater good here. If you own an F230 and you're upset that you can't use it, if you just stop moping about it long enough to see the good the ban does for the game, I believe you'll realize that the decision was ultimately beneficial.
Plus, you can look at it another way. There are plenty of people who spent hard-earned money on other competitive parts that F230 makes unviable. Because F230 is so utterly dominant, these parts might as well be illegal anyway. Somebody's parts are going to be useless, and somebody is going to end up out a few bucks either way. With the damage it does to the game, it might as well be F230 that goes. Even after that, if the part is not banned, people will have to pay ridiculous amounts of money to obtain it and do well on the tournament scene. That'll cost a llloooott of people a llloooott of money.
The financial aspect is ultimately inconsequential. In a situation like this, it's invalid to make that argument anyway, because it basically contradicts itself. Someone is going to be out money either way, so stating this is ultimately irrelevant (besides the fact that we're not supposed to look out for people's wallets. We're supposed to look out for the game itself).
Actually, no, you're not supposed to have better parts than your opponent. Uneven part access is actually bad for the game. However hard one may have worked to earn the parts one is using, in light of actual competitive ability having better/worse parts than the person you're playing puts everything on uneven ground. When there is a select group of players with vastly superior parts to everyone else's, it hurts the community somewhat (yes, making an effort to obtain better parts is part of the game, but only because we cannot change the fact that some parts are better than others).
It isn't easy to beat. I've watched Thunder Dome lose to it in tournaments several times. He's beat it once with an extremely aggro EWD (caused the opponent to self-KO, extremely close match), and once against me, both back in June 2013 with Dragooon SA165, when neither I nor anyone else in our tournaments knew how to launch it correctly. Besides, it's irrelevant because it wasn't even in the Attack type stadium. Every other time, he has lost to it.
This Track is simply a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
If there's a committee member reading this, I ask that you take this into serious consideration. It would make myself and several other experienced members extremely happy to see this finally bite the dust.
Pretty please with sugar on top! XD
Go ahead and comment, discuss etc.
This thread is somewhat similar to the "Why F230CF/GCF Breaks the Game," but with a more focused concentration on an actual rule change, rather than discussion on counters/tournament result discussion, etc..
Before I ensue with this thread, I would like to state something very important for you all to consider. No matter how neutrally I try to present points in this thread, I am, in fact, very biased against F230. Just something to keep in mind when reading. A second opinion would definitely benefit you after reading this if you wanted to get deeper into the subject. I implore users to read through the entire thread (or as much of it as possible) before taking a stance on the matter, in order to get an idea of what the opposing side is presenting.
I've written this thread because, honestly, this problem really needs to be dealt with. It's been debated for months and months now, and has become a problem in several major tournament areas, but alas, nothing official has been done about it yet. I am presenting the case for F230 to be banned from Zero-G format tournament play.
As most of you know, ever since it was first introduced into the tournament scene, the Track Free 230 (F230) from the BBG-26 Random Booster Vol. 3 Bandid Genbull F230TB has been completely dominating tournament statistics, and, in some cases, completely ravaging communities due to its unbelievable competitive application.
North Carolina (probably the area with the most developed Zero-G metagame in the world, due to its tendency to hold Zero-G format tournaments extremely frequently) was the first community to be hit with a major flood of F230 customs. After multiple experienced members discovered the part's potential paired with CF/GCF (specifically with Dragooon Synchroms), and discovered how to vastly increase its versatility through simple launch techniques, the part became basically utterly dominant over all other metagame-viable combination, and completely choked their use, becoming the only really competitive option in any given situation.
The effect of this dominance was tremendous. I have talked to people here who have actually quit (or come very close to it), simply because they did not own an F230, and saw no point in competing when they would inevitably lose in the end. It was nothing but F230 all day every day, and competing was hopeless unless you used F230 yourself. This is a large part of the reason NC's attendance rates plummeted for a long period of time last Autumn.
The next area to see an invasion of this Track, was Maryland, home of 3 of our top ten players (Arupaeo, Stars, and geetster99). In this area, before F230 was widely used in MD, a specific player named beymaster15963 got lucky enough to pull an orange F230 from a random booster. At his next event, he abused Dragooon F230CF the entire time, sweeping Arupaeo, geetster99, Stars, Tech, and Sniper, and taking 1st place undefeated.
This user had never placed in a WBO sanctioned tournament before, let alone taken first against such skilled players, but by abusing Dragooon F230CF, he was able to overcome some of the top players in the country (including the geetster99, who is currently the #1 player in the USA) effortlessly. That, my friends, should categorize any part as "overpowered."
This event is widely and solidly remembered and acknowledged as a significant event. The Maryland players have a set of terms that they have developed and use frequently within their community. One of these terms is:
Time Wrote:Pulling a beymaster15963: Winning a tournament thanks to the spamming of an especially good mold of an overpowered part
Now, one important thing to be stated is that this event was held in the BB-10 Attack type stadium. This environment is significantly different than Zero-G, but F230CF/GCF's incredible spin-stealing abilities and difficulty to KO translate directly into Zero-G format, and produce the same problems in both formats. Nevertheless, this event triggered a lasting effect on Maryland's metagame.
Here in North Carolina, we had the privilege of having Maryland's own geetster99 down to compete with us. At the tournament, he stated:
geetster99 Wrote:"In Maryland, nobody uses anything but F230."
Apparently, the dominance of F230 in this first event triggered a lasting reign of F230 dominance in the Maryland metagame that has not stopped for 9 months. The metagame is absolutely chock-full of F230 combinations all day everyday, and there is nothing to effectively stop it.
Another place on the East Coast of the US was hit with the F230 bomb as well. Although they usually do not post about their tournaments in depth, I have personally interviewed some of the bladers from Virginia, who have spoken to me about their feelings toward F230CF/GCF combinations.
DrPepsidew Wrote:F230 just makes things boring
DrPepsidew Wrote:as for 0G; I'd love to see it banned
DrPepsidew Wrote:It's so good that you guys agreed on no F230. An actual tournament <3
Kaboom!!! Wrote:Yo...Just let F230 slide... if you or anyone else needs to use it, we'll just acknowledge that they suck. 'Nuff said. aha
Their quotes speak enough about their opinions on these combinations I do believe.
Another community that was hit recently, was the new booming region of Connecticut:
Naijalak Wrote:F230 pretty much swept the tournament.
Later, concerning the Limited format event that proceeded this Zero-G event, he wrote:
Naijalak Wrote:Again, F230 swept the tournament
Connecticut's dual-event was destroyed by F230CF/GCF, and the part has dominated the competition since.
Naijalak Wrote:I had a bunch of parents asking where they could get a good F230 after the tournament
This is the effect such a powerful part creates. The part is so utterly dominant, that some players will not even consider coming to a tournament without it. With this mindset, said part soon totally overruns a community. I am legitimately worried about Connecticut's meta ATM. I predict that, if something is not done about it, their events will be completely dominated by F230 consistently. These same types of events lead to its dominance in NC, which turned out to be a very big problem to say the least.
In short, NC and MD (two of the most active and competitive regions in the entire world) have already been completely overrun by F230 combinations. If skilled players are willing to abuse it (which is unfortunately the case), nothing here or in Maryland is really viable besides F230 combinations themselves. A similar situation seems to be formulating in Connecticut at the moment, and will probably soon develop into a real problem.
I have personally experienced a meta overrun by F230, and it's hard for me to go into depth about how shocking it was to see how effortlessly it dominated countless matches. Dark_Mousy won 5 tournaments in a row with it. He knew how to use it, had a good F230, and it made him virtually unstoppable in Zero-G format. Eventually, to compete with him, the rest of us had to being using F230 combinations as well. After that, it all became a huge mess. The aftermath has receded here mostly now, due to the fact that most of us have acknowledged the problem and stopped using it completely, but the problem only really heals with the absence of F230.
The only community where F230 has been used, but has apparently not completely overrun the community, is Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
I don't know why this is, and neither I nor any other player I've talked to has been able to narrow down exactly what we're doing differently, but this past Spring, at GBT2 Encore - Zero-G, Maryland players abused Dragooon F230 in Toronto, against Toronto players, and produced the same effect we've seen in so many East Coast events. F230 dominance.
That concludes our section on F230's current history in tournaments. Of the few areas where users have apparently abused F230, using it with the right mold of F230 and launching it correctly, there has been a shocking display of dominance.
Concerning the existence of counters for F230CF/GCF combinations (specifically Dragooon combinations), I have quite a lengthy statement written here.
I can almost guarantee that there is no user on this forum who has tried harder or longer than me to find an effective, competitive counter to F230CF/GCF combinations. It was the complete focus of my entire non-academic life for about 6 months. In short, I tried every concept I could possibly imagine, but nothing worked nearly well enough to be considered a counter. In all cases, simply by using a different launch technique, the F230 user could counter the combination. Even in most cases, said customs were not nearly viable against the rest of the metagame that it would aim to revive.
Furthermore, these are the same results the community has been getting when attempting to build counters. There was one point where most of the players on the site who owned F230 were simultaneously testing to find effective counters, but none of us could come up with anything near practical.
When you design a counter to a combination, to be a practical counter, it must consistently win against the combo it is attempting to counter, and it must also be competitive against at least a portion of the rest of the metagame.
These points are things people often forget. They flip out when they find something, and say "THIS HIGHLY LUCK-ORIENTED ATTACK TYPE I BUILT ACHIEVED 60% ON DRAGOOON F230!! IT LOST TO EVERYTHING ELSE AND IT ONLY WORKED ONCE BUT I GOT IT TO WIN I FOUND THE ULTIMATE COUNTER YAY!"
That is not an effective counter. It's honestly quite a pitiful presentation. It isn't consistent, and it isn't competitive against any of the rest of the meta.
A good example of this, would be L-Drago Destroy 230CS. This was a combination that Bluezee tested, back in 2011, as a potential counter to MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF. However, though this counter did work very effectively (which really isn't the case with any of the stated counters to F230), it was not what one would call "viable" against the rest of the metagame. If you got lucky enough to stare down MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF in a match with it, then great, but if the opponent pulled most anything else competitive, you were toast.
A second example would be Fang Lynx 100FB. Deikailo originally tested this a while back. It was supposed to counter Meteo L-Dragon CH120XF, MF-H Lightning L-Drago BD145LRF, and MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WF/MF. It did sort of decent against the three, but against anything else... er, it couldn't bring much of anything to the table against other competitive customs.
There are several examples of combinations like this from different time periods, but none of them saw any use because of how risky they were against the rest of the combinations in the game. As an end result, the customs were not countered, because the combinations used to beat them were otherwise unacceptable in a tournament scenario and saw no use.
A good example of a counter, would be MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF, which was (and still can be) used to counter the ever-versatile MF-H Flash Orion W145MF. It takes down the target consistently, and has qualities that can be used to win against other combinations effectively. That is what an efficient counter should look like.
Now that I've outlined the criteria a combination must meet to be a viable counter, let's look at the so called "counters" used against F230 so far by different people.
I'm going to have to list the launches to use with F230CF/GCF customs against different opponents. I'll be using the example beyblade _____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF (Dragooon F230CF/GCF are probably the most problematic form of competitive F230 customs, and the ones that have been messing with the meta the most).
_____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF launch chart Wrote:
- Against Same-spin Sway Attack: Launch at around 50-60% The low RPM will protect you from being sway KOed (possibly causing your opponent to self-KO) without losing much spin velocity, easily leaving enough to OS the opponent later into the match.
Testing:
Quote:Revizer Dragooon F230CF vs. Balro Dragooon SA165GF (attack mode)
Dragooon F230 launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 weak launched.
Dragooon F230: wins, 12/20 (8 SKO, 4 OS)
Dragooon SA165: wins, 8/20 (6 SKO, 2 OS)
Revizer Dragooon F230CF win rate: 60%
This is from a while ago. Honestly, in a tournament situation, winning would be much easier, since 1) You can intercept the opposing Sway Attacker and stop their movement pattern, and 2) Your opponent does not know where you will be launching. Both of these advantages are completely eliminated, since I launched Dragooon F230 first, allowing me to easily pull off a perfect launch with the Sway-Attack type without out fear of interference from my opponent's launcher over the stadium, adrenaline, non-optimal positioning of the stadium, or my opponent's launch technique.
I have personally watched Dragooon F230CF/GCF trash same-spin Sway Attack multiple times in tournaments when launched correctly, often 3-0. It really is a very inconsistent, inefficient way to beat Dragooon F230CF/GCF. I've heard of people who've gotten lucky with it and won, but much more prevalent are accounts of loss.
- Against same-spin Bearing Drive/SA165BWD Stamina: Launch aggressively towards the edge of the stadium, as if you were launching a Sway-Attack type (which, in essence, Dragooon F230CF/GCF really is; people seem to forget that it uses a Sway-Attack Bottom).
Testing:
Quote:MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon SA165BWD
Dragooon BWD launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 19/20 (3 OS, 16 SKO)
SA165: wins, 1/20 (1 OS)
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 95%
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF vs. Killerken Dragooon B : D
Dragooon B : D launched first on all launches. Dragooon F230 launched aggressively toward the edge of the stadium.
F230: wins, 10/10 (3 OS, 7 SKO)
B : D: wins, 0/10
MSF-L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF win rate: 100%
Every OS here was simply the Stamina combinations being swayed so violently that their spin was almost completely drained. It wasn't very hard at all really, B : D took a dive no matter how I launched, and BWD was laughably flimsy if you just launched like you would a normal Sway Attack type. Dragooon BWD/B : D does not beat Dragooon F230. I've seen it in tournaments, and I've seen it in testing.
Video:
I used the least aggressive F230 I had (which is extremely calm compared to most F230 Tracks), Revizer (which throws F230's balance off and reduces sway significantly), and used it without a Metal Stone Face (reduces weight by a considerable amount, hindering Sway-Attack). This is an extremely passive F230 setup, yet, it still hit a win rate of about 73%. I would also like to note that I was having a particularly difficult time launching effectively today.
MSF-H/L Genbull Dragooon F230GCF, the most commonly used F230 variant, is considerably more aggressive than this setup, easily capable of 80+% in a tournament scenario if launched in the correct fashion. Heck, if you use Genbull, you can even hit a 100% OS rate just by destabilizing.
The couple out-spins F230 made in here were due to SA165BWD's spin-loss via Sway (you wouldn't believe how effective sway actually is at draining spin velocity - works pretty well), and its poor balance (exploited by F230's ability to destabilize from above - the method used when banking against certain customs).
- Against everything else: I don't think there's really disagreement among players about F230's prformance against anything but the previously stated variants of customs. Just use a normal launch and it'll trash everything else (although against hyper-aggressive right-spin Sway-Attack, if you're using a high recoil Bottom Chrome Wheel like Genbull, weak launching work a little better sometimes to avoid any lucky KOs the opponent might get).
If the correct launches listed here are used, testing and tournament experience from myself and multiple other NC bladers has shown that Dragooo F230CF/GCF can, and will, stop these customs easily. The launch is extremely important.
Honestly, the discussion we've had so far is so cluttered with results from bladers who do not know how to launch correctly, or have conducted incorrect testing, that it's hard to define who's experience is genuinely credible. Although other people have gotten results like this, I'm mostly going off results from people I know that I've actually witnessed/conducted myself.
My tournament/testing experience has pretty much totally debunked the claims that any of these customs are solidly effective, or even acceptably consistent.
Now, as a continuation of the list above, we have one more custom to list that is important to mention:
_____ Dragooon F230CF/GCF launch chart Wrote:
- Against Killerken/Genbull Dragooon SA165TB: Bank deeply. Although this custom is probably the most effective counter so far to Dragooon F230CF/GCF, banking deeply can oftentimes cause the Dragooon TB custom to be knocked off-balance and OSed easily.
Testing:
Quote:Genbull Dragooon F230CF vs. Genbull Dragooon SA165TB
Dragooon SA165TB launched first at 100% power on all launches. Dragooon F230 banked.
Dragooon F230: wins, 19/10 (All OS)
Dragooon SA165: wins, 1/10 (1 self-KO)
Genbull Dragooon F230CF win rate: 95%
I would like to note that Dragooon F230 was at an extreme advantage here. I had a great shot at Dragooon TB. However, 95%, even with an advantage, is pretty solid evidence that it'll at least put up a serious fight against this in a tournament.
Dragooon TB is also utterly ineffective against most of the rest of the meta. Dragooon SA165's sole purpose is to act as a spin-equalizer. TB cannot do that with any impressive degree of effectiveness. This means that it does not meet the criteria for a good counter, even if you can get it to win against Dragooon F230CF/GCF.
That pretty much sums it up. None of the counters are consistent, and not all of them are even competitive combinations against the rest of the meta. They certainly do not meet the criteria of a good counter.
If anyone disagrees with what I've posted in this section, I strongly, strongly encourage you to perform the above tests or ones similar yourself, using the appropriate launches listed, and post them in this thread. Please do not argue against these results without providing your own.
I understand that some people have different experiences with the Track, and I respect that, but after all the testing I've done with this thing it's gonna take a lot more than word of mouth to convince me haha.
If the users posting results could also post videos, that would be even better (like, really awesome).
Now that we've looked at the current so-called "counters" to Dragooon F230, we should discuss what exactly makes a part "ban-worthy."
Ingulit Wrote:As an example, back when the Maximum Series was just released, Basalt was so ridiculously heavy and powerful that the metagame became "Basalt" and "Things that beat Basalt" (the latter of which being a very small list at the time). A number of people have looked back and acknowledged that Basalt probably should have been banned at that time, since literally nothing even came close to its power level.
I have to compliment Ingulit on this quote, because it basically sums up exactly what an unbalanced meta looks like. The dominant custom or set of customs, and the scanty few counters that exist (except in the situation of F230, the list is not just small, but virtually nonexistent provided it is used correctly) are the only things used.
F230 definitely, beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt, does this to any given meta where it is spammed. It has happened. It is still happening, and it will likely happen again in the future multiple times if nothing is done about it.
I'm making an entire subsection here for this statement, because it is so vitally important that it is certainly acceptable, and, in my opinion, necessary.
Another point people seem to miss, is that, to be ban-worthy, something must be unbeatable.
I literally cannot list for you guys all the times I've heard people say:
A truly disturbing number of people Wrote:"F230 is crazy flippin' powerful, but it isn't unbeatable."
It doesn't have to be unbeatable. Libra was not unbeatable. Basalt was not unbeatable. They were simply dominant to the point that they created a very unhealthy environment for tournament players.
I'm really sorry I had to upsize and bold that statement. It's just such a common misconception among players that I needed to try to emphasize it a much as possible. F230 is just barely beatable, given the player guesses perfectly, predicts the opponent's launch techniques, and pulls no small amount of luck from the sidelines, but to say that it is not prominently unhealthy for the game is quite laughable to me to be perfectly honest
Kei in the "Should We Ban Basalt?" Thread Wrote:Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.
Even if you do think that some of the counters we discussed earlier are viable, the fact is that something doesn't have to be unbeatable to be ban-worthy. F230 is certainly "overpowered in general" from my point of view, and definitely ban-worthy to say the least.
If you want my personal opinion, for something to be "broken," there must be at least two "kinds" of competitive counters (meaning two combinations with different-ish applications), at the absolute bare minimum, and the situation must allow for other customs to be used relatively frequently as well.
This is not the case with F230. It is, by these definitions and the ones stated by Ingulit, utterly broken.
One last thing I would like to point out. Even if Dragooon F230 only hit 50% against the suggested counters shown so far, I would still consider it overpowered. Why? Because none of the counters are anywhere near consistent. Just because something can be beaten, doesn't mean it will, and if I pull a "counter" to my opponent's combination in a tournament, only to end up losing, I probably wouldn't try that custom again.
Beatable does not = Healthy. Unbeatable does not = Healthy. Consistently beatable with a certain variant of competitive custom = Healthy. This just isn't the situation. The few "counters" that exist for this custom aren't nearly consistent, and that poses a big problem.
Now, let's see some quotes from some of our experienced members and their thoughts on F230's dominance:
Dark_Mousy Wrote:Its definitely overpowered. With the LAD alone that F230 (G)CF gives F230 that alone is enough in my book to ban it in Zero G. Its come to the point where in certain meta games if you don't play F230 you lose. Its unhealthy for the metagame. One part shouldn't be able to sway an entire event like that.
DrPepsidew Wrote:I don't give a "carp" about it in Limited. Standard is really annoying, but usually a heavy attack type can take it down, although using attack is risky in tournament situations. 0G I despise it with a passion, barely beatable unless a very good sway user can KO it.
Time Wrote:I'm all for banning it when paired with CF/GCF (especially GCF). As the OP of my why it breaks the game thread states it neutrifies the rock paper scissors aspect of the game (especially in Zero-G) by having stamina, attack, and sway defense aspects. This makes it nearly unbeatable since traditional attack is nearly unusable.
Naijalak Wrote:My experience at Year of the Bey is that F230 is damn powerful in Zero-G, but not unbeatable. A good sway attack can topple it. The trick seems to be to get it out of the stadium quickly, or there's no shot at taking it down.
Ga Wrote:F230CF/GCF is Bane to Batman. It breaks the metagame over its knee.
Tri Wrote:In Zero G, I'm all for ban. As dominant and overpowered as it is, it needs it. We were quick with banning Gravity in LTD and it doesn't seem like much is being done for F230 in Zero G. When a player with little skill and tournament experience can almost sweep it, what skill are you proving? It's just F230 proving its awesomeness, not yours.
geetster99 Wrote:In the Maryland meta game F230cf/gcf is used very frequently. I feel it may be deterring bladers to come to tournaments in the future because the game to me has become F230 or you lose. The main counter that we have been using is killerken/genbul dragoon sa 165 mb but it seems like its better to just go for a F230 mirror match because the counter loses to anything right spin. When I play I don't want to use F230 all the time but if I don't ill lose and I don't think anyone likes losing. I feel that F230 cf/gcf is very ban worthy in the Zero-G format because of its sheer dominance over almost every combo that is meta other than itself. Also if we ban F230 cf/gcf in the Zero-G format we may see more testing for the format and the meta may be able to change. I have had multiple combos that beat many things but I had to throw the idea out the window because it couldn't beat F230. This may also bring back more Bcombos and people may react negatively towards it. But if you think about it will help sway attack because B
Here are some quotes that I received via PM from players who oppose F230's ban. I am going to post them to be fair with both sides (I will provide arguments against them, though,
)Stormscorpio1 Wrote:Well as for my take on F230 I dont see the big deal about it i mean i did only use it twice in events (Revolution, BB-10 that Thunder hosted). I did do well in these tournaments going first and second but i wouldent say its all because of F230 I went to a BB10 tournament in NC in early december and got second with out useing the part and beating dark when he used it. I dont feel that any part should be banned though because everypart is made so that it can be used i mean yes some parts are better than others and get used a lot but by that logic Dragoon should be banned all together. I dont think the part should be banned and if you cant find a counter for it then use it yourself it clearly is a good part that can let even a somewhat poor blader do well in events but its not unbeatable and dragoon TB does a good job at stoping it thats how I beat it in Revolution.
My argument against this. 1) F230 is more than just a good part. Some things are better than others, yes, but nothing should be so much better than nearly everything that it cripples the entire meta. 2) No offense, but comparing Dragooon to F230 is just not proportionate. Dragooon just spins left. It isn't a problem (in fact, like I've told you before specifically, there are things in our meta Dragooon neutralizes that would be far too dominant otherwise. I'd say Dragooon actually benefits the meta). F230 is far more serious than Dragooon ever was. 3) If someone "poor" can take a tournament, that's bad. F230 takes away from the competitive aspect of the game. Beyblade is supposed to be a tactical, knowledge-intensive game. Not a game of who can buy the better stuff and spam it more (making an effort to obtain competitive parts is a large part of the game, but it shouldn't be the whole game in and of itself).
As for your tournament experiences, at Beyblade Revolution, hardly anybody used Dragooon F230 yet. You didn't have to deal with it. Even she you played Dragooon TB, you were running a big risk, because if the user had known how to launch it, there was a very good chance you would've lost (you also would've lost against most other things if he hadn't pulled F230). At the second tournament you mentioned, yes, you did win because of F230. You used it every single match, except for two or three where you used Dragooon BD145RDF.
The event you beat Dark in was BB-10. You KOed with LTAC. You can't do that in Zero-G. Plus, at that time the bladers in NC had pretty much boycotted F230 after what it did to our tournament environment. None of us except Dark had used it for a few weeks, so you didn't have to compete with it. It's easy to win without F230 if nobody else is using it.
Thunder Dome Wrote:Personally I feel F230 doesn't need a ban. In my opinion part of the game/tournament is having good parts and the other half is strategy. The parts were made to use, banning F230 would be crappy since that would be a waste of a part that some people paid for. Your suppose to have better parts and outwit your opponent in tournaments. Banning stuff sucks after people got those items and because you are suppose to have better parts than your opponent. People act like it is "fair" to ban it, but there are only thinking of the people who have to play against it. Banning the part that a person uses to make the match "equal" isn't the major point of this game. It's to win and banning something wont help. I've beat F230 on multiple occasions and it really isn't to hard to beat. It is really not that hard to figure out what spin they are going in since its a 50/50 chance. This is like Yu-Gi-Oh ban lists which suck after you spent a lot for cards just to have them gone and can't be used. This is my opinion and if anyone wants to put a valid argument against it that's fine, but please make sure it makes sense.
Again, yes, Beyblade and most other games like it have always been dominated in part by those who own the best parts. However, in the case of F230, that aspect becomes the game itself. It's a game of who can buy an F230 first, who can spam it more, and whose F230 works better. There's no room for tactical or knowledge-intensive play, because not using F230 is far too big of a risk to consider.
Plus, in situations regarding parts besides F230, once you get them, you need to learn how to use them and compete tactically with other players who have the same parts. You don't just suddenly become virtually unstoppable. It takes work, testing, research, tournament experience and strategic planning to get the best out of your parts and overcome your opponent.
With F230, you just slap Dragooon CF/GCF on it and go. There's no strategic planning involved. Both you and your opponent know that F230 is the best (or, in many cases, only) shot they have. In an environment like that, it doesn't matter who is more knowledgeable or tactical. It's whoever gets lucky and wins the mirror match.
I understand that people spent well-earned money on their F230s (myself definitely included), but we're talking about the greater good here. If you own an F230 and you're upset that you can't use it, if you just stop moping about it long enough to see the good the ban does for the game, I believe you'll realize that the decision was ultimately beneficial.
Plus, you can look at it another way. There are plenty of people who spent hard-earned money on other competitive parts that F230 makes unviable. Because F230 is so utterly dominant, these parts might as well be illegal anyway. Somebody's parts are going to be useless, and somebody is going to end up out a few bucks either way. With the damage it does to the game, it might as well be F230 that goes. Even after that, if the part is not banned, people will have to pay ridiculous amounts of money to obtain it and do well on the tournament scene. That'll cost a llloooott of people a llloooott of money.
The financial aspect is ultimately inconsequential. In a situation like this, it's invalid to make that argument anyway, because it basically contradicts itself. Someone is going to be out money either way, so stating this is ultimately irrelevant (besides the fact that we're not supposed to look out for people's wallets. We're supposed to look out for the game itself).
Actually, no, you're not supposed to have better parts than your opponent. Uneven part access is actually bad for the game. However hard one may have worked to earn the parts one is using, in light of actual competitive ability having better/worse parts than the person you're playing puts everything on uneven ground. When there is a select group of players with vastly superior parts to everyone else's, it hurts the community somewhat (yes, making an effort to obtain better parts is part of the game, but only because we cannot change the fact that some parts are better than others).
It isn't easy to beat. I've watched Thunder Dome lose to it in tournaments several times. He's beat it once with an extremely aggro EWD (caused the opponent to self-KO, extremely close match), and once against me, both back in June 2013 with Dragooon SA165, when neither I nor anyone else in our tournaments knew how to launch it correctly. Besides, it's irrelevant because it wasn't even in the Attack type stadium. Every other time, he has lost to it.
This Track is simply a serious problem that needs to be dealt with.
If there's a committee member reading this, I ask that you take this into serious consideration. It would make myself and several other experienced members extremely happy to see this finally bite the dust.
Pretty please with sugar on top! XD
Go ahead and comment, discuss etc.
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