“(Dragoon F is very burstable from right spin offense, so of course the story is different with tornado stallers), but I do see it consistently beat right spin stam.”

I really don’t see this personally (the part about consistently beating right spin stamina) 

https://youtu.be/DraNLMBD9FY 


https://youtu.be/HPkCMi8sDG0


Dragoon F.Y.Ab-S loses to D.S.R and DZF.S.Ab-S

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 The only super concerning thing is that Geist can't be beaten by Nightmare Longinus.

I feel that it can be equally concerning if left spin “defense“ has nothing that can stand up to Nightmare Longinus.  From you test it seems like dF doesn’t stand much of a chance I think.

Have people tried dF on U'? Hasbro has dusk for left spin defense so we good on the Hasbro side, but personally I don't think opp spin should be very powerful. Since left spin stamina beys have the Potential to beat everything right spin in the game, I think they should be kinda fragile. Dusk has really bad stamina in both directions and S4 is a meme so that makes F3 the choice for opposite spin combat, but if gF is the best of both worlds, idk if I would be fine with it.

 The only super concerning thing is that Geist can't be beaten by Nightmare Longinus.

I feel that it can be equally concerning if left spin “defense“ has nothing that can stand up to Nightmare Longinus.  From you test it seems like dF doesn’t stand much of a chance I think.

The issue is when a LAD focused combo (gF.0G.Ds) still beats attack.

But I can agree that without Geist Fafnir, there does not seem to be a left spin defensive option to counter nL (except for Keep' combos, if any of those would work), but that would be fine if nL could be checked and countered in other ways, such as right spin defense and tornado stall combos should counter nL.


And this is sort of what is genius about banning Destroy'. It ensures left attack loses certain matchups (vs Right Def and vs Tornado Stall) that Ds' lets it win, but using a normal Ds comes with burst risk. Unless of course Xceed beats atomic in LAD and Xceed' becomes the thing nL uses. There is also Ultimate Reboot'.

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

“(Dragoon F is very burstable from right spin offense, so of course the story is different with tornado stallers), but I do see it consistently beat right spin stam.”

I really don’t see this personally (the part about consistently beating right spin stamina) 

https://youtu.be/DraNLMBD9FY 


https://youtu.be/HPkCMi8sDG0


Dragoon F.Y.Ab-S loses to D.S.R and DZF.S.Ab-S

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I feel that it can be equally concerning if left spin “defense“ has nothing that can stand up to Nightmare Longinus.  From you test it seems like dF doesn’t stand much of a chance I think.

Have people tried dF on U'? Hasbro has dusk for left spin defense so we good on the Hasbro side, but personally I don't think opp spin should be very powerful. Since left spin stamina beys have the Potential to beat everything right spin in the game, I think they should be kinda fragile. Dusk has really bad stamina in both directions and S4 is a meme so that makes F3 the choice for opposite spin combat, but if gF is the best of both worlds, idk if I would be fine with it.

I think so far all the testing in this thread suggest gF stamina at least isn’t great.  I don’t know if gF had better stamina then dusk or not.

Have people tried dF on U'? Hasbro has dusk for left spin defense so we good on the Hasbro side, but personally I don't think opp spin should be very powerful. Since left spin stamina beys have the Potential to beat everything right spin in the game, I think they should be kinda fragile. Dusk has really bad stamina in both directions and S4 is a meme so that makes F3 the choice for opposite spin combat, but if gF is the best of both worlds, idk if I would be fine with it.

I think so far all the testing in this thread suggest gF stamina at least isn’t great.  I don’t know if gF had better stamina then dusk or not.

How does it compare to dF stamina wise?

How does it compare to dF stamina wise?

In my video, earlier in the thread, gF lost to dF.  Ppl have shown it to be generally worse in stamina than dF in both directions.

How is dusk compared to F3?

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But I can agree that without Geist Fafnir, there does not seem to be a left spin defensive option to counter nL (except for Keep' combos, if any of those would work), but that would be fine if nL could be checked and countered in other ways, such as right spin defense and tornado stall combos should counter nL.

Could you also agree that there might be players, may be even a lot of them, who feel same spin defense should stand a good chance against same spin attack? 

Do you think the basic nL stock combo of nL.Ds plus Angle might give right defense and even some stallers problems?

How does it compare to dF stamina wise?

In my video, earlier in the thread, gF lost to dF.  Ppl have shown it to be generally worse in stamina than dF in both directions.

How is dusk compared to F3?

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But I can agree that without Geist Fafnir, there does not seem to be a left spin defensive option to counter nL (except for Keep' combos, if any of those would work), but that would be fine if nL could be checked and countered in other ways, such as right spin defense and tornado stall combos should counter nL.

Could you also agree that there might be players, may be even a lot of them, who feel same spin defense should stand a good chance against same spin attack? 

Do you think the basic nL stock combo of nL.Ds plus Angle might give right defense and even some stallers problems?

Just to give my 2 cents on your question to AKN, I personally think that left spin layers should ideally be worse than their same spin counterparts. A good left spin bey can beat anything right spin, so having that plus a layer that can stand up to attack is no bueno. If left beys can withstand same spin attack, then the risk to using them is minimized. This is why Sr was so deadly back in the day. Now I'm not 100% saying that this is the case at current, but that's my opinion. For example, if Hasbro Br was legal, I could use that on F3, have a winning MU against pretty much everything right spin (besides things designed to beat equlizers but they lose in same spin and pretty much everything meta would be same spin for them) and also have a pretty solid chance against nL. My thoughts on nL stock are very mixed. You will probably beat pure defense things like U combos, but nL has such a bad opp spin game, that most things could beat it regardless of Ds. And also, what you have to kp' in mind, is that Ds isn't very good at attack, so that kinda defeats the purpose of using nL in the first place.

bladekid I would say the same spin counterpart to gF is probably one of the other cho Z beys.  Maybe one of  the Amaterios or hK.  And yes they are better than gF but right spin imo, at least the Amaterios are.  

In looking at same spin attack, the prime example in this thread was gF. Ds which dealt with fairly easily with with nL at least for me in the video I think it was KO or bursted 6 out of 7 times straight which I showed.  On Atomic, gF is kinda like your Hasbro Phoenix combos but more beatable and left spin.

nL does have bad opp spin game but when i think right defense and stallers I am thinking Kp’, Unite’ A’ and the likes.  Do you think Ds would get OS by those?  If not these drivers then what defense and staller are we talking about?

bladekid I would say the same spin counterpart to gF is probably one of the other cho Z beys.  Maybe one of  the Amaterios or hK.  And yes they are better than gF but right spin imo, at least the Amaterios are.  

In looking at same spin attack, the prime example in this thread was gF. Ds which dealt with fairly easily with with nL at least for me in the video I think it was KO or bursted 6 out of 7 times straight which I showed.  On Atomic, gF is kinda like your Hasbro Phoenix combos but more beatable.  

nL does have bad opp spin game but when i think right defense and stallers I am thinking Kp’, Unite’ A’ and the likes.  Do you think Ds would get OS by those?

Probably not, but you would be better off using basically anything else imo. Because you have right stam, left stam, left def, right burst def, and even right stallers to beat right defense. Using nL Ds to win that doesn't make the most sense. If the point is to cover both left and right defense, then that doesn't work since even something like F3 Dm-S can survive nL Ds if F3 is used right. You would probably be better off going full out attack because at least then if you're skilled enough with nL you could potentially beat anything. With Ds it's not gonna help in enough matchups to make it worth it imo. I'm going to look into nL stock though because maybe you're on to something here and maybe nL Ds can be the best of both worlds.

I don’t think that Ds is that bad at attack personally.  I mean even now Zwei, Judgement, and imperial are on Ds’.  Ds isn’t Ds’ but angle makes it pretty close.  This really isn’t my opinion.  They are in plenty of 5G decks. Also there was cR.Ds I think.  I don’t think relatively speaking nL.Ds is as good as those combos, but I don’t think it’s bad.  Also I guess for Hasbro maybe Ds-S, so not really stock for Hasbro.

Ok so when I was doing my testing for Erase (Gen) yesterday, I also did a bit with Geist Fafnir. This time I've got it upgraded with Destroy' and the Expand frame and facing the infamous bL.Gn.


Geist Fafnir.00Expand.Destroy' vs Bloody Longinus.Generate
(Alternating launches)
gF.00E.Ds': 6 wins (6 OS)
bL.Gn: 4 wins (4 OS)
Ties: 0

Geist Fafnir.00Proof.Atomic vs Bloody Longinus.Generate
(bL launched second)
gF.00P.At: 7 wins (7 OS)
bL.Gn: 3 wins (3 OS)
Ties: 1

Destroy' being unbanned definitely increases the defensive potential of Geist, however it also opens the door to right spin opponents using Destroy' to counting Geist Fafnir, as gF reduces LAD which would let something like tN on Ds' eat it for lunch. Turns out unbanning Ds', a defensive buff to gF, actually gave it more counters.

Geist Fafnir.00Expand.Destroy vs Twin Nemesis.00Proof.Destroy'
gF.00E.Ds: 1 win (1 OS)
tN.00P.Ds': 9 wins (9 OS)
Ties: 0

Definitely not something I think needs to be banned anymore since it has at least 2 viable counters, 1 unviable (in my opinion) counter, and a few checks.

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Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

Since gF plays a more defensive role in left spin in Limited, I decided to try it as specifically a combo that was more focused on Defense and less on spin eqalizing, which is one of gF's faults.

LC Geist Fafnir 00 Kp' vs Twin Nemesis 5Dagger Hunter'
gF.00.Kp': 17 wins (all OS)
tN.5D.Hn': 3 wins (all OS)
1 tie redone
gF.00.Kp' win rate: 85%

tN didn't manage a single KO, but was able to destabilize and OS gF on a few occasions. Kind of wish I could test it against better KO Attacker but I don't have any of the heavy hitters like Hazard/Buster/tV3 yet.

LC Geist Fafnir 00 Kp' vs Nightmare Longinus Turn Xtreme'
gF.00.Kp': 12 wins (3 KO, 9 OS)
nL.T.X': 8 wins (6 KO, 2 Burst)
gF.00.Kp' win rate: 60%

I guess this is respectable for a defense type, considering how nL usually does against dF/F3/Inferno. gF's aggression got it a few KOs as well, so I was interested to see how this performed against a stamina type.

LC Geist Fafnir 00 Kp' vs Fafnir F3 Ωuter Eternal-S
gF.00.Kp': 15 wins (2 Burst, 13 OS)
F3.Ω.Et-S: 5 wins (all OS)
gF.00.Kp' win rate : 75%

For the first five rounds of this test I launched F3 first, and gF won every time, so I started launching gF first after that and it still kept winning... I was thinking maybe we needed to reevaluate if gF really has worse stamina than dF/F3 but then I thought maybe it's just because of the weight difference. My Ωuter is relatively light so that's an especially light F3 combo, so I tried it against a heavier one:

LC Geist Fafnir 00 Kp' vs Drain Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta
gF.00.Kp: 11 wins (5 Burst, 6 OS)
dF.0L.Ω: 9 wins (all OS)
gF.00.Kp' win rate: 55%

gF did a bit worse here, with more weight on the Driver dF was able to compete with it Stamina wise but was also more vulnerable to bursting.

Geist Fafnir 00 Kp' vs Bloody Longinus 0Under Reboot
gF.00.Kp': 13 wins (1 Burst, 12 OS)
bL.0U.Rb: 12 wins (1 KO, 1 Burst, 10 OS)
2 ties redone
gF.00.Kp' win rate: 52%

I don't have Generate and with Sting banned I'm not really sure what the next step down is. I recently learned from JoJo the reason why Under was so popular on Smash Attackers like tN and bL, its shape can sometimes line up with the contact points on the Layer to pinch opponents and burst them, so I decided to give it a shot here, but I think this might be one of the rare occasions where Bump actually is the best frame to use?

This was a weird matchup. I spent a few rounds trying different launchers to find one that could launch both hard without skipping, and found that strangely enough, the more powerful the launcher was, the more bL succeeded, even though gF was also being launched harder. I also only have 1 Level Chip so I switched it between the two of them halfway through and the matchup tended to highly favor who had the LC, though it helped bL considerably more than gF. I ended up going to 25 rounds and not taking a sample size of 20 just because there was so much affecting it, but I don't think that made the results any clearer.

EDIT: I don't really have a conclusion yet since I can't test against the vast breadth of Limited meta matchups. I want to see how LC gF.00.Kp' performs against gF/aB.00E.Ds', bL.Gn, F3 Ab-S, and bX/hK/tV3 though, so if anyone's interested in doing those please post them here.

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Can you try it against my godly combo?
Deep chaos a mold God chip 00 lift or cross keep' or xtend plus

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Creator/owner of beyblade burst apocalypse.
Maiden will awaken and destroy genesis once more!
i have returned

Came back to this while I was on the topic of aB.00.Kp' and decided to try out LC Geist Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta as a pure weight-based defense combo. At about 63.5g, it's probably one of the heaviest viable combos in Limited - for reference, my nL.T.X' is about 46g, and bL.0G.Om is around 54g, meaning that it's got a significant weight advantage over both same spin attackers.

LC Geist Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta vs Nightmare Longinus Turn Evolution
gF.0L.Ω: 10 wins (8 OS, 2 KO)
nL.T.Ev: 10 wins (4 KO, 4 Burst, 2 OS)
1 tie redone
gF.0L.Ω win rate: 50%

Geist Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta vs LC Bloody Longinus 0 Reboot'
gF.0L.Ω: 13 wins (11 OS, 2 KO)
bL.0.Rb': 7 wins (6 OS, 1 Burst)
1 tie redone
gF.0L.Ω win rate: 65%

Geist Fafnir 0Lift Ωcta vs LC Bloody Longinus 0Glaive Orbit Metal
gF.0L.Ω: 6 wins (all OS)
bL.0G.Om: 14 wins (3 Burst, 11 OS)
2 ties redone
gF.0L.Ω win rate: 30%

Weight based gF doesn't seem to be quite as good as aB.00.Kp' defensively, it's by no means a bad combo. Its weight, aggression, and Driver probably give it a better chance against stamina types of both spin directions, and I'd wager that it also has a better matchup against right spin KO Attack than aB.00.Kp' would due to having ~20g of weight on it.

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