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[TBT] [In Progress] What are the true top-tier stamina setups? (BB-10)

Oct. 10, 2012  3:41 AM
 
What are the true top-tier stamina setups in the BB-10 stadium?
Part of the "Topic-by-Topic" Series

Until the most recent iteration of the competitive custom list, the Stamina section was comprised of a huge variety of tips and tracks, and it wasn't immediately obvious what the best combinations were. With the latest update we moved to both be more specific and more exclusive with the track/tip combos, which was step in the right direction. In this thread I want to go over each part that has been considered top-tier for Stamina, what combinations they are most effective in, and ideally finalize what the true top-tier combos are.

If you just want to skim this thread, at least read the bolded "Tips" or "Tracks" section under each piece. If you want more in-depth information, read the whole thing once you have time!


METAL WHEELS


Phantom and Duo

Currently the two top dogs for Stamina are Phantom and Duo, and I personally think it should stay that way. There has been a lot of talk about Duo being the true best stamina wheel, and with very good reason: both wheels are almost perfectly matched in terms of pure stamina, but Duo has infinitely less recoil than Phantom and, thus, is generally the safer wheel to use. To that end, I have to say that I do think Duo is probably better overall, but considering they both offer nearly equal stamina I think they both deserve a spot on the tier list.

Another note before I move on to the next section: Duo overhangs the track while Phantom does not, which can be a good or bad thing. One thing to note is that on low tracks, Duo needs to use tall tips like EDS while Phantom can use tips as short as EWD effectively.


TRACKS


W145
  • This track is currently the top dog for 145 height stamina combos, and as its test results have shown it's for good reason. This should absolutely be on the list in my opinion.
  • As far as tips go, it seems like the most effective tip is WD with EWD following closely behind. SWD is another possibility, though as I'll discuss in the SWD section I'm not a huge fan. PD works well, but not as well as WD in my opinion. I don't like EDS on this at all, it's far too wobbly. I'm not big on D since WD seems overall better at this height. SD is an interesting tip now for this track now that I think about it; W145SD isn't a bad setup by any means. BWD is also showing some promise, but there isn't enough testing for me just yet.
  • Tips: WD and EWD are very viable for this track. SWD, PD, SD, and BWD are possibly good. D and especially EDS aren't great compared to the other options.

TH170
  • I am a big fan of TH170 for tall stamina types. It offers comparable performance to 230 while also offering a ton of versatility thanks to its height change gimmick. This track has proven itself to be very competitive, and as such I think absolutely deserves a spot on the tier list.
  • For tips, D reigns supreme thanks to its ability to right itself. SD is also popular, though I've never actually seen the test results that show that SD is as good as D. PD performs rather well, but probably not as good as D or SD. WD is horrible because it's so wobbly, and EWD similarly suffers from the tall height. SWD doesn't wow me on this track, and I haven't seen any convincing results in BWD's favor yet (though I imagine it won't go well). EDS is far too tall to do well on tall tracks, it just falls right over. I feel DS should at least be mentioned, though it's not as good as D.
  • Tips: D is far and away the best tip for this track, with SD coming in second. BWD and PD might be good. WD, EWD, SWD, and EDS are all terrible options.

230
  • Ah, the ever-popular non-gimmicked 230. While I personally feel it is inferior to TH170, I know I'm in the minority thinking that. To me, it seems like TH220 does everything 230 does with the added versatility of the height change gimmick. As such, I don't think it necessarily belongs on the tier list, but again I know many of you disagree.
  • As far as tips go, see the tip section of TH170 as every tip that works on that track works the same on 230 and vice versa. That being said, are there any tips that actually work better on one track over the other for pure stamina types?
  • Tips: D is far and away the best tip for this track, with SD coming in second. BWD and PD might be good. WD, EWD, SWD, and EDS are all terrible options.

BD145
  • This track is an interesting piece for stamina types. Because of the three protrusions along its bottom it seems like it would be horrible for stamina, but EDS offers enough height to where they aren't as much of a problem. It's super heavy and relatively well-balanced, traits which give it better defense than most other tracks while still providing excellent stamina.
  • BD145 does, however, suffer from a few key flaws, flaws that are becoming more and more pronounced thanks to Dragooon's presence in the metagame. First, even on EDS it doesn't offer the same level of pure stamina as the other top-tier tracks, meaning it will often lose in a stamina v. stamina fight. Second, while its weight and shape offer greater defense than almost any other stamina track, EDS--which BD145 basically has to be used with--has such poor defense that despite BD145's strengths it will still lose to attack types all the same. Third (and in my opinion this is the most important point), BD145EDS tends to not perform well against left spin compared to most other stamina setups since at low rotation velocity it tends to scrape and stop rather than precess.
  • While there is a lot of appeal to having a really heavy stamina type for the defense benefit, I'm personally hesitant to add this track to the top-tier list if for no other reason than its shortcomings against left-spin. It's good, certainly, but I'm not sure it's good for this meta.
  • As far as tips are concerned, the choice is easy: you have to use EDS. D, SD, WD, PD, SWD, and EWD are all too short for BD145 not to scrape. BWD had potential to be another option, but unfortunately its slope is too steep such that it scrapes early. Here's a thought, have we considered MB for stamina?
  • Tips: EDS is really the only thing that even works. BWD is tall enough, but underwhelming in practice.

85, 90, 100
  • In this section I'm going to talk about the three options for LTSCs. I'm including all three of these tracks because while they all work for Phantom, the lower tracks don't play well with Duo since it overhangs the track. LSTCs have been around a long, long time, and there isn't really anything wrong with them I can think of other than a severe lack of popularity. I'm personally a big fan of low track customs, though it's hard to argue for them when they haven't appeared in the Winning Customs thread for a long time. Is there anything really wrong with them, or are they just not popular? If it's the latter, we might need to reconsider taking low tracks off the top-tier list, provided we can back that move up with test results.
  • I honestly have trouble knowing what the best tips are for LTSCs. For Duo, it's easy; it needs EDS if you're using a super low track since anything else will scrape. For Duo 100__ and Phantom, however, there are a lot more options. WD and EWD work well, and SD is pretty good here if memory serves (correct me if I'm wrong). I actually really like SWD on LTSCs more than taller customs since I think SWD is a good tip for destabilization, and LTSCs are the best to take advantage of that. D is mediocre in comparison to WD and SD. PD works well. Has anyone tested BWD for LTSCs yet?
  • Tips: WD, EWD, SD, and PD are all good choices, and SWD is an interesting and moderately effective option as well. D isn't as good as the other D variants. EDS is needed for low-track Duo customs, though I'm not a fan of LTSCs with EDS personally. BWD needs more testing.

MORE TESTING NEEDED
SA165 and SR200 are both tracks that either obviously or should have potential, respectively. More testing is needed for both, though. 160 is also a track that I feel has potential based on my own testing (particularly with PD), but since I'm the only one with test results currently there isn't enough we can say about it. If we can get more test results these tracks likely deserve sections of their own (if anyone wants to write one, please, be my guest!).


TIPS


D
  • D, of course, is the first tip in the tried-and-true Defense family for stamina. It has an easier time righting itself when put off-balance compared to WD, a trait that makes D very well suited for taller tracks. Basically, if the track is taller than 145, D is a good, proven, and certainly top-tier choice.
  • Tracks: TH170 and 230 work very well with this tip. 160 works well, but is unproven. SR200 and SA165 likely work well, but they are barely tested. There are better tip choices for W145 and LTSCs.

SD
  • SD is a bit of a problem child in that it seems to just do generally well, but it doesn't really fill a true niche. It is fairly popular with tall tracks, and it isn't terrible for other heights either. It's kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master of none stamina tip, in that there isn't a track that it's particularly bad with that I can think of, though it doesn't necessarily outperform tips that are well suited for a given track. It's top-tier worthy in my opinion, though I'm not sure what tracks it should be listed with outside of taller tracks.
  • Tracks: TH170 and 230 are very popular with this tip. 160, SA165, and SR200 all either likely do well or are doing well with SD. It performs well on W145 and LTSCs, though possibly not as good as WD/EWD.

WD
  • Ah, WD, the still-king of stamina tips. The amount of precession this tip offers is unmatched, making it one of the best stamina tips available for tracks at 145-height and lower. It does perform poorly on taller tracks, but it is stellar on mid- and low-height customs. It's top-tier in every sense of the word.
  • Tracks: WD is the staple tip for W145 and LTSCs. Tracks taller than 160 don't perform well with WD.

EWD
  • EWD is very similar to WD both in performance and in what tracks it is best on, but it fills a different niche. EWD is slightly inferior to WD in pure stamina (if its testing is worth its weight in salt), but it appears to perform better than WD against left-spin customs. Considering how popular left-spin is becoming, I feel EWD is absolutely a top-tier piece for stamina.
  • Tracks: EWD, like WD, works well with W145 and LTSCs. Also like WD, it doesn't perform well on tracks taller than 160.

PD
  • PD is criminally untested, though it is difficult to get a hold of. Its width is interesting, being wider than D but thinner than WD. On W145 it isn't as good as WD or EWD, though it's not bad. It's decent on LTSCs. It's usable enough on taller tracks, but I think I prefer D or SD for them. Where it shines is on unusual in-between heights like 160, and from my personal testing I feel that it is very much top-tier worthy on 160. However, it's simply not tested enough.
  • Tracks: My personal testing has shown it works best on 160, though I'm the only one who has done those tests. It's useable on LTSCs and W145, but possibly not as good as WD. It's decent on TH170 and 230, but probably not as good as D or SD. It's not well tested on SA165 or SR200.

SWD
  • Is a WD by any other name still a WD? Jokes aside, SWD seems to perform almost identically to WD in tests, though I remain unconvinced seeing as my own personal observations have shown it is strictly inferior. Where it does have a niche, I've found, is on LTSCs, where its tendency to tilt allows the custom to destabilize more consistently. I actually think it performs well enough that it might be top-tier worthy on low tracks, but this claim obviously needs to be tested.
  • Tracks: LTSCs seem to be the true home of this tip, meaning 85/90/100. It puts up comparable results to WD on W145, though in my personal experience it's not as good. It has the same problems on taller tracks as WD.

EDS
  • Okay, I have to admit, I actually really don't think EDS is that great of a stamina tip. I feel like it's too tall and that it can't offer the kind of low-spin precession that the standard D family can. That said, it has a very important niche in being the tallest decent stamina tip, meaning it actually works on BD145 and on low tracks with Duo. I'm not personally of the opinion that either of those uses are actually top-tier, though I expect to encounter some resistance about this.
  • Tracks: This is the only tip that works with BD145, and it can be used with really low tracks on Duo, though I'm not sure the latter is actually that good. I feel it's not actually good on anything else.

MORE TESTING NEEDED
BWD, BWD, BWD. Also BWD. Seriously, even though it's horrifically pointy it screams potential, though I couldn't really say on what.
Oct. 10, 2012  5:34 AM
 
BD145EDS and LTSC's are basically dead right now, so you can strike them out. BD145EDS can't handle anti-attack and apparently can't handle left spin (i.e. LDD/LDG BD145RDF or anything similar with Dragooon) which means W145 trumps it completely.
LTSC loses to even AD145 right now because of the stamina wheels available, I assume. Unless BWD changes this, there's little to discuss here.

E230EDS, however, should be tested, as should E230BWD (in case that helps), and Uwik has suggested BWD should be retested once the tip has dulled a little in case that helps it out any, with which I agree.

On what we currently know, track wise:
TH170 Vs 230 is entirely user dependent. I greatly prefer TH170 on everything but Duo 230 MB for its additional versatility (even if only two of its heights are really useful) and the slightly better defense it offers, and because in my testing it will always beat 230 1v1 for conventional stamina.

Tall Track vs 145: Now, traditionally 145 has always beaten 230 and that isn't very different, MB gave 230 an out but if I recall correctly, W145 changed it back. The question then, is can W145 beat all three modes of TH170? That is something that needs to be tested, unless it has already.

Of course, testing is hard with Duo/Phantom because of how widely they vary from wheel to wheel, as well as the fact phantom suffers from wear of its leading edges. So, even if there is testing, whether or not it is accurate/useful or not is another question.

The only real reason we can even entertain the idea of a "best" stamina type, for stamina purposes anyway, is because LTSC is out of the picture, disrupting the usual LT>MT>TT>LT circle.

However, it's still going to be situational, not only outside of pure stamina, but even within, from person to person.