World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Off-Topic Forums Your Creations

Silver Tops: Development - Re-Engineering Spinning Tops

Jul. 20, 2013  10:56 PM
 
Original Post:

I like the shapes of the plastic generation blades with all the pointy bits and that in the anime they make sparks and metal clunky noises etc so been looking into a sort of a cross between plastic beyblades and HMS that can be easily produced from laser cut steel plates, little lathe machining for the tips, tapping some threads and no involvement of casting parts to give something that resembles the origional looking blades so here's some computer pictures I've based around Galeon S. The launching system will hook up under the very top plate and sit against the bit chip protector allowing for left or right spin like HMS, although if this doesn't succeed in releasing the bey then holding the outside of the attack ring will be my next choice as I'm intending to make all the attack rings 50 to 52mm diameter to keep the beys small due to the higher weight (approx 100g). Also so that some more customisation is possible, an attack ring can be fitted in place of the ring the spin tip sits against as shown too. It's held together by the spin tip which has an M4 thread on the end of it which screws into the top attack ring.

Only given it a few hours consideration so probably missed something obvious out but let me know what you think as I'm considering getting some made up
Jul. 21, 2013  4:45 AM
 
I remember seeing your laser-cut designs from way back - great to see you haven't given up on them! I'm really liking this new wave of homemade designs that are emerging from everywhere. They're all so unique!

For manufacturing, why do you prefer laser-cutting over CNC milling? Have you some previous experience with outsourcing this kind of work? Who do you plan on using?

For the design, I wouldn't be so keen on cutting the internal parts out of metal. I'm not really experienced with plastic-beyblade parts but from a performance point of view, you'll get a higher solo-spin time if your BCP and threaded parts are made of plastic or nylon.

I'm also curious - why have you chosen M4 thread? My own custom designs invariably use 1/4 imperial thread. First, imperial is just way cheaper. It is also easier to manufacture at home. At this scale, the level of grip lost compared to metric thread is negligible.

For that matter, experience has taught me never to rely on tapping my own materials en masse. It's just way too time-consuming and too expensive to outsource. Would you consider using a more face-bolt oriented design with countersunk tapped tips? That way you could save on costs by using commercially available steel or nylon threaded bolts.


Whatever happens, keep us informed - I'd love to get my hands on a few of these!
Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM
 
Yes it's taken about 2 months to decide the route I wanted to go down, just making metal parts on the normal plastics meant that for what wanted they were going to be pretty hefty and possibly too dangerous for my liking, I think that creating own parts is much like the way of the cartoons as I was watching the episodes where HMS gets created and inspired me.

Yes it's previous experience, I work with laser cut plates at work and everything is identical and often get a few spares too, no need to drill or file holes and all you need is the 2D drawing which can be uploaded to a online quoting site which a couple of UK companies use which gives you the price for each part and adjusts the rate depending on quantities then it's normally delivered about a week after paying. It's also cheap as most of the individual parts on my current design are less than 40pence each. The main go for me though is you can then make your own parts up from sheet metal using a saw, drill and file that fit in place so they can easily be customized, in addition you can use the layers when whelding the attack ring ogether to give a bit more customization as you could use a spinning sub attack ring part and combine it with something like a dragoon attack ring, or coud even flip parts upside down so that you can have a left or right spin version of it. But CNC would be worth looking into as it would avoid having to assemble the parts myself.

It's possible for me to get parts cut in steel, stainless steel and aluminium, but if it caused a problem I can work on lightening the centres using different materials or using less material altogether. It's new so I've currently gone for the "less likely to break" option and kept quite a bit of material for strength.

I looked at your thread on your own parts, I'm guessing you're from Australia as the currency was mentioned, metric is more popular and easier to get to here, not so much imperial stuff is sold anymore. An M4 tap is about £3 off ebay and bolts are a matter of pence aswell so just down to what's here really. I did consider using M6 thread but thought I'd try a smaller size first as the locking shaft would have had holes very close together.

For the spin tip (just using whatever names for parts literally describes what they do) I've considered just using a bolt so it can be tightened then welding the points onto the ends of them. I don't as such have issues threading my own stuff, down to years of practice trying to get good at doing it i guess - I always struggled with threads wobbling down shafts ivig a really odd thread but found using a lathe or something square to hold it all stops it, but then most people don't have access to a lathe. What I want ot achieve is sort of like a cross of HMS and plastic where you can still obtain your favourite bit beast sticker unlike a facebolt of later types.

I'll keep informed, won't as such have constant progress but there'll be some lol, It's mainly going to be measuring up existing parts and converting them to my system and designing the launcher attactment really so many hours sat on the pc Unhappy . I'd like some of these going by christmas this year so not a long wait.
Jul. 21, 2013  1:45 PM
 
(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: I think that creating my own parts is much like the way of the cartoons as I was watching the episodes where HMS gets created and it inspired me.

Sounds cool. It shows in your work.


(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: ...and all you need is the 2D drawing which can be uploaded to a online quoting site...

That's pretty amazing. At the price you mentioned it's a steal. I can't get metals laser-cut in any sensible quantity here in Australia so laser cutting was never on my list of options. The benefit of CNC milling is really just that everyone's doing it now (so it's cheap) but if it really is that easy, I can't see any good reason not to stick with lasers. Plus, with experience, you know what to expect.

Can you elaborate on the welding and assembly though? Won't the bolts hold these together? Or is the welding you mentioned just an option for modders?


(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: It's new so I've currently gone for the "less likely to break" option and kept quite a bit of material for strength.

Good idea. Nuff sed.


(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: I looked at your thread on your own parts...

That's embarrassing. I haven't posted anything in years! All that stuff from two years ago is pretty junk-worthy now. I'll message you pics of my new stuff if you like but it's not ready for a whole thread yet.

Funny about metric being more commonplace in the UK. Didn't you guys invent the imperial stuff? We have both here; metric is more expensive to manufacture and buy. That said, metric is always better than imperial if you can get it for cheap.


(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: What I want to achieve is sort of like a cross of HMS and plastic where you can still obtain your favourite bit beast sticker unlike a facebolt of later types.

Fair enough. Forget I mentioned the 1/4 imperial bolt. Still confused by the welding though.


(Jul. 21, 2013  10:51 AM)lowen93 Wrote: It's mainly going to be measuring up existing parts and converting them to my system and designing the launcher attachment...

Curious to see how the launcher attachment goes. Maybe I missed it, but what kind of launcher are you aiming to use?
Jul. 21, 2013  6:02 PM
 
I don't know of many places that do CNC over here but then I haven't looked out for any, I think they do the same where you can get online quotes etc using their software that calculates it all but I can imagine complicated parts will cost a bomb although would look cool, I guess our laser cutting cause it's so common is like your CNC. Admittedly, it would be a low effort solution to achieve features like upper attack on angled attack features instead of putting up with attack rings that can only perform smash attacks etc as some reputable Driger's are known for this.

The welding, currently it's a temporary solution on this one blade. Cause to fit in a bit chip and sub attack ring there isn't enough room that I can see to fit bolts into to attach the attack ring together so my shortcut for the moment til I figure it out is to put some small TIG weld tack to hold the three parts together as shown in the picture below. However on that Dranzer attack ring I designed it was made so that it could all be dismantled, flipped over and used in the reverse direction, for ones like this on my system it should be possible, it's just finding a space for the same concept cause when you look at the current blades they have small machine screws molded into them which I would like to replicate but the fiddly size could be out of my skill range. I think that explains the welding aspect of it although I would ultimately like that you can bolt everything together where the spin tip is what bolts through everything and the locking shaft keeps everything spinning together. I've also attached an exploded diagram of all the parts as I realised I missed one out.

The lower spacer can be removed and replaced with anther attack ring as currently the dimensions are identical so you can get a bit more of a unique blade as shown in the 8th 9th and 10th pictures from my original post. Later I'll work towards adding a Draciel ball bearing to the spin tip and also shafts like in Wolborg.

Yeah I'd be more than interested to see what you've got too Smile I did like what you were upto though.

It's silly really, we invented imperial and have our road signs labelled in miles, yet our maps are in kilometres and metric bolts are more common but imperial is still common as it allows fixing of our older cars and such so it's a bit of an odd system really, our own with Europe trying to convert us to match them but it's been going since the 1970's I think, lathes still have both measurements on them.

I've only briefly thought about the launcher so far, i'm intending it to hook inside the very top of the attack ring where it is slightly narrower but if it doesn't work then I'll try holding something like the bit chip or the outside of the attack ring as I thought about standardising the diameters of them to 50mm. I want to use a HMS launcher or base it upon one so that left and right spin can be achieved by choice, when the cord is pulled fully out then it would act like normal lauchers and stop spinning to push the blade down. If it is held from the outside by gripping it like a hand or clamp I'll try it so to release the blade it will "let go" and just drop the blade as it spins but could get a bit complicated. Just ideas so far.
Jul. 21, 2013  10:16 PM
 
Sorted the bolt together issue by changing a few dimensions, some parts are a bit narrow where a free spinning sub attack ring is fitted however the extra web in the lower part of the attack ring should help with strength aswell as provide a surface for the launcher to push the blade down on thus releasing it. With normal attack rings without a sub attack ring (like Dranzer) they won't have narrow areas unlike Galeon. Plus tidied up some of the parts like adding fillets to high stress corners or removing unecessary material and also changed the sub attack ring material to aluminium so that it has less momentum and can be stopped easier.

Overall lost almost 25grams on this revision making it about 74grams in total in weight. Every part can now be reversed negating the need for left and right spin only parts.

Underneath where the 4 M3 bolts are is where the launcher will latch underneath depending on chosen direction of rotation, then when span up to speed and the launcher begins to turn slower than the blade it will slip and press against the lower part of the attack ring making sure it releases the blade into battle.

Jul. 22, 2013  3:42 AM
 
Wow. That's really quite cool.

I'm loving the M3 bolts; they look cool, they're cheap and available everywhere in any of zinc-plate, stainless or nylon because people use them for mounting racks and circuit boards. I use them for robots because you don't need a jeweller's screwdriver to tighten them. Would you consider leaving the attack ring components untapped and just use M3 hexnuts instead? You appear to have some space under the attack ring to work with - but maybe that'd be out of character?

If you can make the sub-attack ring out of aluminium, would you consider doing the spacer and locking mechanism in aluminium too?

For the record, I also try to keep my stuff within 50mm; that way, you have a maximum width similar to a "scythe" wheel, which I find very effective and compatible. I also try to keep all my designs at 75 grams or less; this is a common RFL fleaweight-class restriction in robot-combat. So it's a nice coincidence that your design meets that specification. I guess it makes sense with the new synchrome system too.

Could you use the M3 bolt for the threaded tip as well? Or would it not be strong enough?
Jul. 26, 2013  7:35 PM
 
Visited a local laser cutter today and they said there'd be no issues with having parts at 0.5mm material thicknes so it is a relief for me. Also tweaked the Galeon shape slightly to better match the anime so it's a bit shrper however I'm making any "pointed" parts have a 0.5mm radius just incase it works well and I don't use gloves or it flies into a wall! So hopefully going to get a couple of test pieces made up soon as they'd be able to do them as and when the right material is on the machine to keep the costs down.

Also started on the launcher system. I'm trying to partly replicate the HMS launcher in that left or right spin can be achieved by inserting the ripcord as you desire before a battle. However all the plastic launchers I'm aware of that use ripcords stop the shaft instantly which to my thinking would result in not being as efficient as it could be so I'm going to use bearings that roll on a plate with notches cut from it to try to "jiggle" the blade off the launcher adapter to launch it but haven't completed this design yet. The extra web in the lower part of the attack ring will help "drop" the blade into battle. Also I'll try using a steel ripcord, the anime uses it as shown by the sparks so I will try too although it won't give much flex like the plastic ones but then I've broken plastic ones pulling too harshly whilst using my custom heavy weight disks.


Beylon:

Thank you Smile I use a company that just sells only stainless bolts and a good range too of things like M3 and upto about M20 as well as imperial too. I've never had any issues with them and ones I've had on my car in the weather for about a year now still look new! I'm going to try tapping the attack rings as it means not having to leave space underneath where the weight disk fits and allows for moving the attack ring to below the weight disk in place of the spacer for customisation purposes. It's visible in the cut away that I've added an extra mm of material where the M3 bolts fit so hopefully keeping it safe, but this is only an issue in free spinning attack rings like Galeon / Galux.

The synchrome system is combining of the two metal upper parts into one blade? (Not familiar with anything after HMS incase anyone had guessed lol) That would make my system similar in weight to those?

To me it looks right having a bigger thread holding it all together so I'll keep the M4 for now, I would have liked to have used a smaller screw like M2 but I fear it's just too fiddly for me to use.
Jul. 28, 2013  8:37 PM
 
Started making my design starting with some tips - mostly based around M4 nuts and bolts held together with loctite then ground on a bench grinder to the desired shapes: (left to right) Flat 6, Flat 4, Dome, Ball, Sharp. Also got the launcher designed which is similar in size to the plastic's launcher except it works as well as a HMS and runs on bearings at contact points. I also made up my own attack ring design just to see how it goes and ordered the plates to be cut so will hopefully arrive in 1 to 2 weeks time!

I tweaked the lower attack ring slightly, it now allows fitment of a fixed or free spinning sub attack ring without changing the whole part so is slightly easier to customize bey as well.


I've also began looking into HMS parts, using a 2mm adaptor plate that fits on the running core and allows fitment of metal attack ring parts above it as shown by the Dragoon MS All Metal attack ring:

Jul. 31, 2013  4:58 AM
 
Hey! A lot to digest! All good news and I'm psyched to hear you've got some plates on the way from the shop. That's gonna be sweet!

Launcher design looks good - but have you considered using a gear-ratio setup like TheMechanicPapa's design? Or would that be out of character? Speaking of which, if you're going the metallic (titanium?) rip chord, maybe look into ignition strips? Kind of like this Kikkerland design. That'd really be something.

The tips turned out great! They're stainless, right? Will they need Loctite in the final design? Also, have you tested the metal-flat tips on a metallic surface? I've had performance problems with that in the past.

I'm a little confused by the HMS design; you're implying it is compatible with the official HMS cores? That's certainly a cool idea. And by the way; yes, the synchrome system is basically just a gimmick to add copious dead-weight to the blades: a little disappointing after so much innovation and reinvention in 4D. So anything up to 75gm is probably fair-play now.
Jul. 31, 2013  9:49 AM
 
Thank you. The launcher is mkI, I've never designed gears before and its first proper experience for me at an assembled product of so many parts so keeping them minimal for now to see how it works out especially as the ripcord is made from non flexible steel, although i do intend; if this works; to work on more powerful or motorized launchers that can automatically launch themselves. When i start gearing it up then ill move onto a longer cord to account for more force needed to spin them up. Plus the current shape follows a function over form appearance, literally the minimal to make it work. Im interested to see if i can get any to spark! Grin

They're mostly stainless, the threads are all m4 stainless bits but there are some bigger offcuts i used for the domed tip as i had them in the garage spare. Currently just using bolts i have lying around till i buy some specifically. The nuts and all that are loctited on, then just being bolted into the attack ring will secure it to the blade. I haven't tested yet but when the rest of the parts turn up i will, it was an easy tip so worth a go.

I measured up the plastic parts as you saw months ago so i have a way of making them metal, this is my own system but more a what can i achieve exercise while still keeping bit chips, but its similar in construction to hms so I've measured up hms so i can look into doing all metal parts for them aswell and doing away with plastic. Then maybe later on looking into the same for the current beyblades so that overall ill have each system covered to fit my own metal parts to in addition to my own system to keep my brain thinking
Aug. 10, 2013  6:32 PM
 
When do you think you'll be able to post a picture of the finished product?
Aug. 11, 2013  7:23 AM
 
I think a more powerful launcher will be needed as the gears could weaken with the constant flow of steel passing through.
Aug. 12, 2013  8:34 PM
 
Im still waiting for the parts to be , delivered to me so hoping for working examples in the next few weeks. Im waiting to see how my design comes out before getting any conversion parts made to use with other current beyblade systems like HMS and plastics.

Jacolal, could you elaborate on "more powerful" please? Do you mean stronger materials or thicker parts? The gear is made of the same stainless steel as all other parts are except the thickness off the part makes up for the narrowness of the teeth to prevent them shearing off
Aug. 12, 2013  8:58 PM
 
Those look soo cool!!! How did you do that?Grin
Aug. 12, 2013  9:07 PM
 
Oh okay, then it's fine, however the outside of the launcher will have to be sturdy and strong as it starts to wear when the ripcords are inserted. (They sometimes hit the edges, making too much gap in the hole so it loosens up.)
Aug. 13, 2013  9:11 PM
 
(Aug. 12, 2013  8:58 PM)ryukiba Wrote: Those look soo cool!!! How did you do that?Grin

The pics are from solidworks, a 3D design program used by many big companies across the world and the tips are a combination of M4 nuts and bolts ground down to shape on a bench grinder.

(Aug. 12, 2013  9:07 PM)jacolal Wrote: Oh okay, then it's fine, however the outside of the launcher will have to be sturdy and strong as it starts to wear when the ripcords are inserted. (They sometimes hit the edges, making too much gap in the hole so it loosens up.)

Its all made of stainless steel which has low friction on itself when polished. The only part not stainless steel are the free spinning sub attack rings which need to be lighter so are in aluminium. I've got plenty of worn out launchers so I've made all parts of the laucher separate so i can easily modify or customize it and so its cheaper to replace parts like bearings and ripcord guides.

Its only mkI version of the launcher so i wasn't going to buy loads of bearing incase my gear tooth design didn't work, later Im replacing the guides with bearings to make it more efficient and eventually fully automated with a motor.
Aug. 13, 2013  9:14 PM
 
When will you start selling these also I need some help in a project of my own. Pm me if you're interested in helping.
Aug. 13, 2013  9:21 PM
 
Hey mr. lowen93, I am making a new system of beyblades with jacola, XKai_DranzerX, and Sorablader, I was wondering if you could make us some of the metal wheels and possibly help with the tracks. I believe XKai_DranzerX has the plans for one of the metal wheels already so I'll talk to him about giving you the plans for it.

Thanks,

-Triforceblader
Aug. 13, 2013  9:26 PM
 
And I will soon give you the plans for our spin track extensions
Aug. 13, 2013  9:28 PM
 
yes hey jacolal, do you have the picture of the track extensions yet? I'd like to see them!! SmileTongue_out
Aug. 13, 2013  9:31 PM
 
Dont spam someone else's thread.
Aug. 13, 2013  9:32 PM
 
Kyler?? what happened to you?? lets finish this talk in PM
Aug. 13, 2013  9:38 PM
 
If somebody wanted to buy one then id sell them but i have no responsibility of sharp parts or anything like that that can cause injury. I may sell conversion parts in the next few months and use my own system to experiment with design ideas like auto launchers and more interchangeable parts. Is this the 5D thing?
Aug. 13, 2013  9:40 PM
 
yes this is the 5 D thing
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