Should we ban Basalt? The Committee has been debating this issue for a few weeks now, and we figured that it might be a good idea to get an opinion from you guys. It's a thought that I'm sure has passed through all of our minds at one point or another, but to me it just sort of seems like Basalt's existence has become "accepted" since it was released.

You could make cases for other parts to be banned, such as 230, TH170, BD145, etc. and as some of you may remember, I used to be in the ban BD145 camp, but after giving it some thought lately, I've realized that Basalt is the crux of everything.

To me, it simply doesn't make sense that we should allow a Metal Wheel that is undeniably the absolute best in two categories–Defense and Stamina (not to mention it's use in "anti-meta" Attack)–to exist in competitive play. Think about everything that it makes obsolete (or near obsolete): Virgo, Libra, Earth, Burn, Flame, and Scythe.

I think the final straw was the release of Scythe, a completely circular disc, and even it cannot best Basalt in a straight up Stamina battle (okay, the jury is still sort of out on whether Scythe is actually better than Basalt ... but overall, I think Basalt gives you a much better chance to win in more situations). This has nothing to do with Scythe being bad, it has everything to do with Basalt being overpowered. Basalt is an completely circular cylinder that is what, at least six, seven grams heavier than any other Metal Wheel in existence? Is this good for the game?

It's the Libra problem all over again, except this is worse because even Libra wasn't the best Stamina Wheel available in its time. And looking back, I feel like one of the largest factors in the banning of Libra was the psychological fear surrounding it and the use of Attack types at the time. The fear surrounding Attack types is no longer nearly as prevalent. Back then we didn't give Attack enough credit, despite the poor Tornado Ridge on the Attack Stadium. This problem is not psychological at all; Basalt simply is the best and I predict that nothing will ever eclipse it. It's not unbeatable, but it allows for zero deviation in two of the three major types of Beyblades.

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Here are a few quotes from our discussion about Basalt:

You're absolutely right; Basalt is a stronger, more influential part than BD145. I don't know though; why ban it now, when we've never banned it before? Just playing devil's advocate, but viable counters to Basalt already exist, too. I don't really have an argument against that.

Counters do indeed exist, but what I'm trying to emphasize is that despite it's fallibility, it is still overpowered in general. Libra wasn't unbeatable either, but we still banned it.

edit: Just want to ask, which "counters" are you referring to? There are counters to specific customizations that use Basalt, but the main problem is that there is nothing that can beat Basalt in pure endurance and defensive ability (not to mention it's use in anti-meta Attack customs, as I stated in the OP).

Yeah, I was definitely talking about counters to specific Basalt customisations, but your point about it dominating Defense and Stamina is definitely valid and one which I agree with.

Like Blitz, I would absolutely love to see tournaments without Basalt, since I believe that we'd see a lot more variation. I'm leaning towards it being banned, even though I am really reluctant to see us take this sort of action. Like I mentioned before, unlike the Libra situation where contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong, we are now in a phase where I doubt, judging from Takara Tomy's designs (compared to say, something like Samurai Upper of HMS), we will ever get anything potent enough to damage Basalt in any significant way. As a result, I'm certainly not optimistic of this ban ever getting overturned if we announce it. I guess that's a separate issue altogether, but it's something to think about, I guess.

Exactly. We would. I think it's important for us to consider what might happen if we do ban it, so I've outlined a few general predictions here:

• An increase in the use of Attack types.
  
• As a result of the increased used of Attack types, there would also be an increase in the use of parts like RS, a part which is basically non-existant in competitive play right now, at least in Toronto.
  
• A whole crop of Wheels would become competitively viable again: Earth, Burn, Flame, Virgo, Libra, and Scythe (or for the first time in the case of Scythe imo. It's done well in tests, but I've felt like it was more of the Track or Bottom's doing in those cases than due to Scythe's great Stamina).
  
• Crazy powerful Balance customizations like MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170CS/WD/MF/etc. would not be as terrifying without the use of Basalt. Using the same custom with Earth or Libra would still be good, but it would also be easier to KO.
  
• bye bye mf-h basalt aquario bd145cs/mb
  

There will be more changes, but these would be the most basic ones I think we would see. They all sound good, don't they?

If it never gets unbanned, who's fault is it, really? It's TAKARA-TOMY's for releasing such an overpowered Metal Wheel in the first place.

(By the way, Lightning L Drago came out in July 2009 and Libra was banned in May 2010 ... so it's not fair to say that "contemporary Attack Wheels were not all that strong"! Pegasis, though its impressive Smash Attack was not well known at the time, was also around. As I said before, I think it was more of a psychological problem than anything else, looking back).

Hm, I had the impression BD145 was SPAMmed in many different combinations more, where it almost did not matter what Metal Wheel you would use sometimes.


It seems that it is indeed used a lot, but how does that compare to Libra's use ?

You could argue that it is spammed more than Basalt, and what you mention regarding that it almost does not matter what Metal Wheel you use sometimes is certainly true to some degree. However, the point I'm trying to make here about Basalt is not even about how much it is spammed, it's simply about how ridiculous and damaging to the games future I'm realizing it is to allow a Metal Wheel with such high performance in almost all three major types be legal in competitive play.


I went through all of the quotes you pulled from the Winning Combinations thread and here are the stats (I went through them quickly, so their may be some inaccuracies):

- 18 Tournaments listed
- 40 placements listed (sometimes it was just one person who posted what they used, instead of the top three)
- 55 customs listed: 23 included Basalt (42%) (55 customs were listed because some Bladers listed the customs they used frequently throughout the tournament, rather than just the one combo they used in the final match ... I'd imagine if everyone did this, we would see even more Basalt combos appearing)

But again, talking about how successful or not it is in particular tournaments is not what this is about. Circumstances vary in tournaments around the world, and it's very possible for someone to still place with something like Earth Bull 145WD, but that doesn't mean Earth Bull 145WD is still a competitive combination when it is brought to the highest level with the likes of Basalt.

I don't think it's fair to compare actual stats of how much Basalt is used in comparison with Libra (if those stats did exist) because there were much less parts available back when Libra was dominating. That said, because Basalt is a much better Wheel than Libra was, it's easy to see how much of a problem it is ... and I've outlined all of the reasons why that is in the OP.

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In case you missed it, here is something else I posted recently in the Jade Jupiter thread:

So Jade in total weighs 39.15 grams.

That's disappointing. It's interesting how TAKARA-TOMY has thus far not been scared to match or exceed the "maximum" properties of the other Maximum Series Beyblades (Hell is no longer the widest Wheel, EDS is arguably just as good as EWD depending on the situation, TH170 is an infinitely more useful part than 230), yet they haven't really gone near Basalt's weight yet.

It's like the Libra problem all over again, except this time they're trying to correct it by releasing all of these ridiculously designed high recoil Wheels like Vari Ares and Blitz.

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And just as a note: All of this was written between July 26th-29th, and thus, it was before Phantom Orion B:D was completely revealed. We'll have to see how Phantom turns out, but nevertheless, everything said here still stands.

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God..
I don't know, I really like Basalt and know it could indeed be defeated. What you brought up with tournaments is completely valid and make things a whole lot easier for everyone.
I have a feeling if we ban Basalt MF Lightning LDrago BD145LRF/any dang attack custom in general will just start wiping everything out to a point of complete annoyance. I think banning Libra for that time was good, allowed everything to catch up. I think with Basalt it could be the same thing, yeah, but what if you just ban BD145? Perhaps that isn't right since so many varying customs rely on it which, actually, 230 would be a whole mess again..? I'm seriously on the fence.
What about just banning the single combination: MF-H Basalt BD145MB/CS?

Edit: I also think there is this intimidating 'aura' arounds MF-H Basalt BD145MB/CS which hinders peoples thoughts in tournaments, because a simple Earth 90WD completely obliterates it. Maybe only I'm thinking that, eh. :V

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Like Dan, I was going to say ban particular combination of parts, or even a weight limit if that'll prevent it from being used with BD145. Similar to what I think TAKARA-TOMY did With libra and a metal face.(might have been WBBA)

I'm wondering what changes would happen if one of the 2 main basalt combos were banned?

Let's say 230 Basalt was gone, then there's a slightly better chance for lower and mid attackers; increasing the diversity among attack types.

Let's say BD145 basalt was gone, then Basalt 230 CS Is the viable defense beyblade. it would make it so that defense beats attack(with the exception of tall left spin attack), attack beats stamina, attack beats attack, but would stamina beat that basalt 230 CS? I'm pretty confident that someone who is well versed with basalt 230 CS can beat all other current stamina types. So that messes the cycle up a bit.I would think that B:D would be the best chance, but we have to cross that bridge when we get to it.

Let's say both are gone. Would the game turn back to what it was? Was it even balanced or equal before? Attack types, the true Balancer. Especially with XF and MF attack combos that are around now. Like Dan said, lightning L Drago BD145 could turn into another dominator.

Of course, if let's say everyone was as good as possible with attack types, how many more people would venture out to use something extra-ordinary? Would that make a difference? Dan nailed it with the intimidating comment. Basalt seems to be a big road block for the Italians though. Obviously this is nothing we can change, but just a what if scenario.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's better if attack types were dominant, than if a balance type was dominant. It's easier to create a more fun competition against attack types than it is against a single dominant combo. To me basalt 230/BD145 cs/mb is a dominant balance type.

I think the Italians are struggling with Basalt, and I think it's because they're so oriented towards attack only, so they use attack to counter attack. But when you're countering attack, in comes basalt and jumbles it all up, which makes it a struggle when trying to beat other attack types. When someone beats basalt, someone beats the combo that beat basalt, but basalt beats that combo. It's kinda confusing and difficult for me to describe though.

Banning parts such as specific tracks alone I disagree with. Other combos and other types use those parts, so i think it will inevitably reduce the customizability and diversity.

To me it seems like basalt is almost always a balance combo, no matter what it's paired with.



I don't think basalt should be banned altogether. I think variations, or parts used with basalt are the problem. But banning them is also hurting other types. I really dont have a final answer yet, i'll have to see what other people write.

I never thought I would ever have to QFT an entire post. lol

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Deikailo posted an interesting post in the Phantom Orion Topic:

With the release of Variares and B:D, this will bring attack types back into the metagame. The only way to beat B:D would be to KO it and since drive tracks/bottoms are not particularly hard to KO, there ya go.

There's another possibility. Attack types may come more frequently

No.
Defense is always getting shafted.
Also B:D should literally shaft it.

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So your saying defense never gets it's full shake around here and to let this go because B:D will handle it anyway? Huh. So basically the metagame would be where it belongs? Attack>Stamina>Defense>Attack. Saying that brings up that the real problem here is attack isn't put in it's place: defeating everything left, right and center and were not used to it being properly whipped by defense.
Wow, just for that, if I interpreted it correctly, I'll vote against Basalt being banned.
Thanks Frown!

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Yeah I think we should at least hold judgement until B:D gets tested quite a bit.
Honestly I'm fine with Basalt beating Attack.

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The only problem with Basalt is that stamina types can't beat it. If B : D can then I see no problem. Even if people threw Basalt on B : D, attack types would still be able to KO that, no? All this is guesswork though.

As of right now, regardless of whether or not Basalt should be banned, I think if it were the game would be more fun.

Edit: I think the best thing that could happen to this game would be for either a stadium with a better tornado ridge or a rubber flat that catches the one in MFB attack properly.

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I've been playing around with BB-96 libra today as a pure defense combo with BD145 RSF. It's defense capabilities are just outstanding. As far as pure defense with basalt goes, banning it doesn't solve anything.
I need to go through CS still.
Libra 230 is quite easy to KO, however. I just want to play around with flame and Hell 230 more before I say 230 would be out without basalt.
I'm just trying to see how BD145 and 230 would do without basalt with these tests.

So right at this moment in time, I'm not for banning basalt at all, Banning it doesn't seem to solve the problem. But i'm not fully confident to say I'd be fine with Basalt the way it is at this current time; without B:D. I like the point of B:D balancing out attack>stamina>defense>attack, it makes sense.

Edit: cye, let's just say we just switched to Tornado Attack, would attack really be able to KO consistently enough to make someone confident in their attack type, and use attack types more?

1. I don't think Basalt is on the same level as Libra was. Libra was indeed very tough for its era, and even WBBA had issues with it, which might have resulted in TT producing 'worse' mold (Mold 3) on purpose after the release of BB-36 Metal Face. The fact is when Basalt was released as part of the maximum series, its weight was the main selling point. This should indicate enough that everything about Basalt is intentional (weight / size/ shape). Added to that, there are combinations that are able to defeat Basalt, even if it's with some degrees of difficulties.

2. Attack is just a style. Although it's been somewhat diminished due to Basalt, it would not be fair if the other 2 styles (defense / stamina) have to lower its standard so that 'attack' could catch up. We are not that informed quite yet about the potential of the future releases. Blitz seems promising, and now with B : D, it could possibly mean that attack-based bearing cores are perhaps also in the making.

3. I feel that the main reason for banning Basalt is because of the lack of diversity in the metagame, and not because of Basalt being a monster, remember that it is defeat-able. Give it some time, and see first the possibilities for the upcoming 4Ds releases. Doing so now, would only result in more Hell-based (which is already overused also), some Scythes, and of course back to Earths and Burns (which is already months behind in the metagame). It will be few steps behind, instead of progressively moving forward.

So yeah, don't ban Basalt entirely. If the committees decide to do something about it, maybe ban combinations of, instead of a simple ban. (For starters: NO Basalt BD145)

Well, in the case of B : D bringing the game
back to that cycle, then yes, I do feel that players would be more comfortable using attack types in Tornado Attack.

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Uhm,i think Basalt shouldn't be banned for some reason:

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   
   
2. With Basalt a lot of people want to use it to go "sure" in tournament and it's quite bad,because beyblade is a play where you have to use skills,strong,strategy,and fantasy. Basalt kills all of them,but if exist Attack players that can beat Basalt, for sure a lot of people will start to understand that it isn't a Metal Wheel that can do all the work that a player must do and win for sure!
   
   
3. Without Basalt you'll create a whirlpool of Attack vs Attack,because Stamina will be useless,and Defence will not have good parts to make a Top tier combo!
   
   
4. Without Basalt the problem will not be resolved,all old MWs can't be played against the newest!
   Or you create 2 formats: one made for all Beys first of the Maximum Series\4D system and one for all the maximum Series and 4D system, or you'll create another problem made by all MWs that do the work (in attack customizations) that Basalt does in defence!
   

I say that Basalt mustn't be banned!

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My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

The only problem with Basalt is that stamina types can't beat it. If B : D can then I see no problem. Even if people threw Basalt on B : D, attack types would still be able to KO that, no? All this is guesswork though.

As of right now, regardless of whether or not Basalt should be banned, I think if it were the game would be more fun.

Edit: I think the best thing that could happen to this game would be for either a stadium with a better tornado ridge or a rubber flat that catches the one in MFB attack properly.

Yeah, I agree that the arrival of B:D brings up a completely new issue. As Kei already mentioned before, when we initially discussed this we had no idea that something like that would be announced.

Anyway, as a general prediction, I think that B:D will be a great pure Stamina part. Potentially, it will replace any traditional Track and Bottom combination currently used, such as AD145WD. The main problem with Basalt, as you've already highlighted, is that it is incredibly strong in two of the main typings we've established, meaning that yes, it is difficult for Stamina to beat Defense in our current metagame. I think if people were able to put something like Earth on B:D, and, although unlikely, B:D to somehow be very poor in conjunction with Basalt, then this would be an ideal scenario.

I don't think it's particularly informed to sit here and wait for more proficient Attack Wheels or other parts to strengthen it. Of course, we can speculate on the role of B:D purely because it's announced and concrete information on it is available, but who knows when we're going to get anything capable of overcoming Basalt?

Galaxy, although I agree with your opinion, this part I somewhat disagree:

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   

On CS, then yeah I agree. But on RS/RSF I think defense still has a chance. BB-96 libra on BD145 RS/RSF does exceptionally well. Keep in mind though that the attack types I have right now are limited to Gravity, Hell and Vulcan, but I think you should play around and test BB-96 Libra in place of Basalt for BD145 RS/RSF.

Although, Libra on 230 is easy to beat though.
All 230 combos in general without basalt aren't hard to beat.

Galaxy, although I agree with your opinion, this part I somewhat disagree:

1. Without Basalt will not be any other MW that you can use for defense competitively. Forget Earth and others,new attackers will burn them.
   

On CS, then yeah I agree. But on RS/RSF I think defense still has a chance. BB-96 libra on BD145 RS/RSF does exceptionally well. Keep in mind though that the attack types I have right now are limited to Gravity, Hell and Vulcan, but I think you should play around and test BB-96 Libra in place of Basalt for BD145 RS/RSF.

Although, Libra on 230 is easy to beat though.
All 230 combos in general without basalt aren't hard to beat.

Right,of course RS (RS is better than RSF in my opinion) is a Top Defense Bottom,but what about MW? What do you put on RS without Basalt?
I agree also with BD145,very good Track,but on it?
I can beat all the old MW with Fang\Hell and Gravity!
Then,the problem is not Basalt 230 CS,the problem is Basalt that's killing the game,because a lot of people use it without skills in the competitive play.
The problem is that Basalt is a safe choice for Bladers that don't have launch skills;
Can someone test Basalt 230 CS against Schyte 85\90\100 EDS(or Top Stamina Bottom) ?
Atm i can't because i'm not at home,but if my idea is right and Schyte wins,than we have Attack<Defence<Stamina<Attack,as it must be.

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My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Right,of course RS (RS is better than RSF in my opinion) is a Top Defense Bottom,but what about MW? What do you put on RS without Basalt?
I agree also with BD145,very good Track,but on it?
I can beat all the old MW with Fang\Hell and Gravity!

hmm, with BB-96 Libra Mold, it definitely isn't easy or a solid win to beat Mf-H libra Bd145 RS with Hell (I don't have fang). Right spin Gravity hasn't gotten good enough results for my liking. But in left spin, Gravity seems to win by spin steal, and not by KO. Either way, a win is a win; it just doesn't seem reliable or consistent to me.

Actually, could you do some tests for me? Whenever you are at home. I just want to see if my results are different from yours.

MF/MF-H Libra (bb-96) BD145 RS/RSF vs any Gravity combo you want.

MF/MF-H Libra (BB-96) BD145 RS/RSF vs any Hell combo you want

MF/MF-H Libra (BB-96) BD145 RS/RSF vs any fang combo you want.

I'd be fine if any Italian member who is frequent at tournaments with you does them, I just want to see how they compare to my test results

Then,the problem is not Basalt 230 CS,the problem is Basalt that's killing the game,because a lot of people use it without skills in the competitive play.
The problem is that Basalt is a safe choice for Bladers that don't have launch skills;

And the thing is, this is something we can't force upon, or help with people who don't have good launching skills.

Can someone test Basalt 230 CS against Schyte 85\90\100 EDS(or Top Stamina Bottom) ?
Atm i can't because i'm not at home,but if my idea is right and Schyte wins,than we have Attack<Defence<Stamina<Attack,as it must be.

Qft. (I learned a new saying yesterday, hah)




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Is a very short temporary ban out of the question? Even if it was for half a month? At least so we get a small sample of what it is like without basalt, before B:D comes out.

I can't do that tests until 1st September,sorry
Anyway,i'll do them at my return; during this period if someone can do my test,it should be good for all :]

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My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Guys, i still believe that the pre-maximum format and after maximumn format is the best choice.

Also, why did it take so much time?
I won't vote for now, just consider the double format idea, which worked really good for me (and i still play that format, or, to be more accurate, i ONLY play in that format nowadays)


edit: oh, it seems i was beaten in time by galaxy, but we both agree about the fact that creating two formats is the best solution possible.

GUYS, every pre hws bey and every hws bey before maximum series, compared to newest looks like plastic vs hms.
Just sayin'.

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I'll respond to everything in full later, but:

Can someone test Basalt 230 CS against Schyte 85\90\100 EDS(or Top Stamina Bottom) ?
Atm i can't because i'm not at home,but if my idea is right and Schyte wins,than we have Attack
Already done (scroll down for more tests).

And as Shabalabadoo has already mentioned, you mustn't forget RS and RSF. Both are excellent Defense Bottoms, and in combination with Earth or Libra (hey look, two options for Defense!), I think they are "good enough" without being overpowered.

And, additionally, everyone also seems to be forgetting how much weak launching can increase the win percentage of your Beyblade versus Attack types. If Basalt is banned, Defense will not be "shafted".

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Is a very short temporary ban out of the question? Even if it was for half a month? At least so we get a small sample of what it is like without basalt, before B comes out.

As a heads-up, Blitz is doing an unofficial meetup this weekend without Basalt to see what this will be like. I think this will potentially be very interesting.

Is a very short temporary ban out of the question? Even if it was for half a month? At least so we get a small sample of what it is like without basalt, before B comes out.

As a heads-up, Blitz is doing an unofficial meetup this weekend without Basalt to see what this will be like. I think this will potentially be very interesting.

That is an amazing idea; I predict some hardcore attack placings or Hell stamina combinations, lol.

Kei: Yeah I think defense will definitely be 'shafted' as most attack customs can defeat the likes of Earth and Libra. There is just a big gap between attackers and Basalt which causes grief if Basalt is indeed banned. (Attackers would overpower most defense customs, but if Basalt is back most attackers will be defeated.)

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Kei: Yeah I think defense will definitely be 'shafted' as most attack customs can defeat the likes of Earth and Libra. There is just a big gap between attackers and Basalt which causes grief if Basalt is indeed banned. (Attackers would overpower most defense customs, but if Basalt is back most attackers will be defeated.)

Although libra definitely isn't as powerful as basalt, I think you're underestimating Libra's defense capabilities.

well, my opinion is: do the same with the format idea. test it.

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is there a way to make a poll that only advanced members can vote on? just curious

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