World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. World Beyblade Organization Discuss worldbeyblade.org

Should playing fields and/or stadium stabilization be standardized? (BB-10)

Poll: Should playing fields and/or stadium stabilization be standarized?

No, this isn't a large enough issue to warrent action.
6.45%
4
No, it would be too complicated.
6.45%
4
Yes, but just playing fields (IE, always on grass, hardwood, etc.)
12.90%
8
Yes, but just stadium stabilization (IE, adding weight to keep a stadium from moving)
25.81%
16
Yes, both, as both are important.
48.39%
30
Total: 100% 62 vote(s)
  • You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
  • * You voted for this item.
  • Show Results
Jul. 23, 2012  8:06 PM
 
Beyblade tournaments are held in a variety of places on an equally varied number of playing fields, but not all are created equal in terms of how well they can keep a stadium from moving. Beyond that, several people anchor their stadium in some way, be that by adding weight to the bottom of the stadium or by actually adhering it to a level surface.

So, why is this important?

Those who have ever used MF-H Diablo Kerbecs BD145RF in a BB-10 on a flat surface with no added weight to the stadium knows that Diablo will move the stadium a LOT if it starts to Tornado Stall. On the other hand, if you use the same custom in an anchored stadium, Diablo will behave differently because the stadium is not moving with it.

Thus, we have a problem: stadiums that are not anchored well will move during battles, and this creates a new variable in how a custom performs that will change based on whose stadium a player is using. This can become a consistency problem in both individual test results and tournament sets.

I'm expecting two primary responses: either that this doesn't bother battles enough to worry about this, or that this is an issue that deserves thought/standardization. What do you think?
Jul. 24, 2012  4:34 AM
 
Not that it is something to ignore or that its effect is negligible at all, but I think even TAKARA-TOMY's BeyStadiums are not fixed in place.

It can totally be argued that, then, the surface the stadium is on can make a huge difference (carpet versus wood), but I just do not think the stadiums were meant to be fixated to one location solidly.

If the player/tester can mention these variables though, it would be appreciated.
Jul. 24, 2012  6:05 PM
 
Right, it's something that should definitely be mentioned in test results if applicable.

Although TT doesn't do it with their stadiums, there isn't anything saying the WBO couldn't recommend that players somehow immobilize their stadiums, be it via weights/anchors or via consistent surfaces.

Ga'Hooleone sent me this PM on the matter:

GaHooleone Wrote:So I was reading your thread, and I can say that I have another example for it. I wrote it in my Basalt combo thread, but here it is:

MF-H Flash Escolpio S130R2F vs Basalt

Flash went so fast (it was launched second) during one round that its movement shook the stadium and moved Basalt into the center. Then, Flash started tornado stalling and Basalt lost by OS because it couldn't move out of the center.

I can pretty much guarantee that the result would've been different if the stadium doesn't move so much.
Jul. 25, 2012  3:38 AM
 
Since I doubt anybody immobilised their stadiums before, or most did not, we should probably not change it.
Jul. 25, 2012  4:58 AM
 
Personally, I can't really imagine the game was intended to be played with the Stadia jumping all over the place, on a competitive level... do we actually know for certain that TT doesn't keep them still?

Even if they don't, though, I think it'd be worth exploring... it would make for a much more controllable environment, and every ounce of control we can muster should be expounded upon, in my opinion.
Jul. 25, 2012  6:32 AM
 
I've always felt it's important that the stadium stays still. I've just held it with my hand. Of course, that's illegal for competitive play, but I think just a little bit of tape will do it. Also, surfaces like grass should be avoided. (although, it is fun to play on an exercise ball)

Honestly, I really don't think it should matter what TAKARA-TOMY does, I'd rather it be the way that lets the Beyblades not be hindered by a surface with a lack of friction. I think that, like Hazel said, it's really something that should be common sense, right?
Jul. 25, 2012  6:57 PM
 
Stadium stabilization probably should be standardized. The movement the Attack Stadium can exhibit is not as ridiculous as something like TBTS, but still, it likely is enough to change how certain Beyblades perform.

I just wonder what the best, easiest, and most reliable way would be to do this. Using tape of some sort wouldn't work for people who host tournaments in parks on grass, for example.
Jul. 25, 2012  7:06 PM
 
It does not take much weight to immobilize a BB-10. Someone could bring an extra pair of shoes, use rocks, bricks, anything really.

It would require improvisation, but nothing complicated at all; even the youngest child can figure out how to weigh something down.

We definitely should not allow users to hold it with their fingers, though, as it provides possibilities for more external influence, rather than less.
Jul. 25, 2012  7:20 PM
 
(Jul. 25, 2012  7:06 PM)Hazel Wrote: It does not take much weight to immobilize a BB-10. Someone could bring an extra pair of shoes, use rocks, bricks, anything really.

It would require improvisation, but nothing complicated at all; even the youngest child can figure out how to weigh something down.

It doesn't take much to weigh it down, but whatever it is, it should probably be standardized, don't you think?
Jul. 25, 2012  7:27 PM
 
Rather than invading an aspect of these stadiums that we should probably leave alone, I just think testers should mention if the Beyblades moved the stadium around, and what surface they are playing on.
Jul. 25, 2012  7:45 PM
 
(Jul. 25, 2012  7:20 PM)Kei Wrote: It doesn't take much to weigh it down, but whatever it is, it should probably be standardized, don't you think?

I think it'd be too hard to standardize without requiring people to buy weights or something, you know? We could just standardize the effect it should have: that the Stadium does not budge whatsoever based on activity within it.

(Jul. 25, 2012  7:27 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Rather than invading an aspect of these stadiums that we should probably leave alone, I just think testers should mention if the Beyblades moved the stadium around, and what surface they are playing on.

I think rather than convoluting things, we should simplify things, and I really do not think these Stadia were meant to move around like jell-o in a plane crash, and it really doesn't make any sense at all(regardless of what the WBBA, which I would indicate as being less precise and competitive than our meta should be anyway, does) to let them. They should be static arenas.

There's a stadium series based on movement: Zero-G. BB-10s are not based on movement, and thereby should not be subject to it.

Our meta should not be about what other people do, and it should not just disregard things for no inherent reason. Every decision we make should be for the good of the meta, and for the stability and reliability of the things that occur within it. Making Stadia immobile by rule works to both of these goals. Letting them bounce around is just wanton disregard for want of not putting forth any effort to differentiate.
Jul. 25, 2012  7:53 PM
 
Tornado Stalling, as described in the first few posts in this topic, can be an actual strategy that would be strangled right here ...

Also, again calling my side "for no inherent reason" ...
Jul. 25, 2012  8:00 PM
 
(Jul. 25, 2012  7:27 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Rather than invading an aspect of these stadiums that we should probably leave alone, I just think testers should mention if the Beyblades moved the stadium around, and what surface they are playing on.

The important issue here isn't testing: it's official tournament battles that are affected by the movement of a stadium.

(Jul. 25, 2012  7:53 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Tornado Stalling, as described in the first few posts in this topic, can be an actual strategy that would be strangled right here ...

How would Tornado Stalling be "strangled" by the immobilization of stadiums ...? It might be less effective in the sense that the opposing Beyblade's movement patterns are not as greatly affected as they are now due to the movement of the stadium, but the strategy would still be effective.

Here's a solution that Coach PMed me about:
Coach Wrote:
Kei Wrote:
Coach Wrote:I was following the thread, and while I do it I wouldn't expect everybody to do it. I have rugs that I take to the tournaments to put the stadiums on. Then I've also on the part of the stadium that's flat on the ground put 2 small pieces of velcro on each of the 3 flat spots so they grip to the rugs. If you put a piece thats too big good luck getting the stadium off without damaging it (lesson learned by experience). This works excellent it also prevents a major rules violation of moving the stadium before a round by hand. Everybody at my tournaments who pays attention to this stuff says it was an excellent idea. So seeing I can't comment I'll PM it to you.

Hey,

This sounds like a good idea. Can you take pictures of everything you use and the set up?
The velcro on stadiums The Stadiums on a rug

Not everyone will have access to everything needed to do this, but it's a great way of solving the problem.
Jul. 25, 2012  8:00 PM
 
(Jul. 25, 2012  7:53 PM)Kai-V Wrote: Tornado Stalling, as described in the first few posts in this topic, can be an actual strategy that would be strangled right here ...

Also, again calling my side "for no inherent reason" ...

The only reason you've provided thus far is that no one bothered before, so we shouldn't bother now, which is an awful reason, and not justifiable at all. If you have an actual argument to make against this, make it. If not... there is no reason to oppose it.

Tornado Stalling still works fine when a Stadium is held immobile, unless you're talking about Tornado Stalling that turns this into Zero-G, which definitely should not be intended.


(Jul. 25, 2012  8:00 PM)Kei Wrote: Not everyone will have access to everything needed to do this, but it's a great way of solving the problem.

It is a rather nice solution, but as you said, it's not feasible everywhere/for everyone. Tape where tape works, shoes/rocks(obviously ones small enough not to interact in any way with KOs/wall impacts) where tape doesn't work seems applicable.
Jul. 25, 2012  8:02 PM
 
Tornado Stalling and actually shaking the stadium while Tornado Stalling are two entirely different things. What was described in the scenario with Basalt can be a strategy, and just Tornado Stalling might not give the opponent as many wins.

Jul. 25, 2012  8:18 PM
 
I don't think it's an intended function, though, and even if it is, allowing that one strategy at the cost of widespread part reliability, test consistency, tournament consistency, and overall efficiency as a "professional" organization seems silly.
Jul. 25, 2012  8:21 PM
 
Most battles actually do not involve the stadium moving, so I think you are exaggerating ...

I think what was intended is that some flat Bottoms move around very quickly, and their momentum inevitably moves the stadium around. TAKARA-TOMY has surely tested this a lot.
Jul. 25, 2012  8:35 PM
 
Absolutely every battle involving Attack types, and many involving aggressive/semi-aggro Defense and MF-tips will have quite a lot of stadium movement. Go launch an R2F at reasonable strength, even with(or in some cases, especially with) a Sliding Shoot, you will quickly find yourself more than a foot away from your stadium. It really does get quite extreme on a lot of surfaces, and simply stating "oh I did this on this surface" is not sufficient. It's meaningless information to anyone that hasn't played on those surfaces/has nothing replicable, it convolutes testing, and in a tournament situation, it just provides yet another uncontrollable variable that hampers the reliability of certain kinds of combos.

It just makes more sense, to me, to have everything stationary, which will keep the Attack meta much more reliable and controllable, as well as everything else when going up against it.

I do not care what Takara has done. I addressed that in an earlier point. Takara also strictly forbid anyone over a specific age from beyblading, uses gimmicky stadiums for their finals, and surely has other things we do not do.
Jul. 26, 2012  7:40 PM
 
The main issue with requiring stadiums to be anchored is the difficulty for testers and hosts. We already have an issue of not enough people testing at the moment, and making things more complicated for hosts, especially for something that doesn't seem to bother people that much, is not really desirable...

Also, as for avoiding grass, in some places, finding a suitable unoccupied hard surface with a very limited budget can be quite difficult - and things like concrete tend to damage tips so it also means bringing rugs or using walls (which can make it awkward to launch). Of course, for grass to be usable you have to find a perfectly flat section and make sure it is flat and the stadium is stable. Dirt isn't great on tips but it's much friendlier than concrete.
Jul. 26, 2012  9:43 PM
 
I have experiences both with fixed and not-fixed stadia.
From what I remember, fixed stadiums are more than horrible, haha.
I mean, the only time that I played with a fixed stadium the battle between me and my opponent was with attack customizations. I was playing a Variares - I don't remember my opponent's combo - and after a huge amount of recoil, my Variares, first, flew away against a wall of the Attack Stadium, then it went out from the stadium exactly from the exit that was in front of the wall that it hit. It means that with a fixed stadium, impacts won't be exhausted from the walls thanks to the movement of the stadium and all of them will be released with the maximum amount of power. It will create lots of non-voluntary situations.

I think that stadiums mustn't "interfere" with the battle. If it starts to move, being not-fixed, it will be because of a strong shoot of one or both players. It will affect on both combos. If I fly on a wall while I'm playing with a fixed stadium, and it will exit only my Beyblade, it will affect only on me.
Jul. 27, 2012  1:31 AM
 
(Jul. 26, 2012  7:40 PM)th!nk Wrote: The main issue with requiring stadiums to be anchored is the difficulty for testers and hosts. We already have an issue of not enough people testing at the moment, and making things more complicated for hosts, especially for something that doesn't seem to bother people that much, is not really desirable...

Also, as for avoiding grass, in some places, finding a suitable unoccupied hard surface with a very limited budget can be quite difficult - and things like concrete tend to damage tips so it also means bringing rugs or using walls (which can make it awkward to launch). Of course, for grass to be usable you have to find a perfectly flat section and make sure it is flat and the stadium is stable. Dirt isn't great on tips but it's much friendlier than concrete.

If tape or rocks are a hassle then they shouldn't be hosting at all. If hands are a hassle, they shouldn't be testing. Haha, it really isn't difficult for people, is it?

But I do agree with the second part, I was just saying grass is not optimal.



And Galaxy, I think that example pretty much shows that there is a big enough discrepancy to warrant standardization; and not that we should ignore it.
Jul. 27, 2012  1:33 AM
 
There is very little surface area to weigh down with rocks so that a beyblde will not move, and taping is not possible with many surfaces.
Jul. 27, 2012  1:34 AM
 
(Jul. 27, 2012  1:33 AM)th!nk Wrote: There is very little surface area to weigh down with rocks so that a beyblde will not move, and taping is not possible with many surfaces.

Shoes work.

100% chance either someone can bring an extra pair of shoes, or at least one person is comfortable blading barefoot, in every single community.

(Jul. 27, 2012  1:31 AM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: And Galaxy, I think that example pretty much shows that there is a big enough discrepancy to warrant standardization; and not that we should ignore it.

I agree with this.
Jul. 29, 2012  6:54 AM
 
Should we necessarily view stadium movement as something negative ...? I've started to think that perhaps we shouldn't. The only instance in which stadium movement is a significant factor is Tornado Stalling with Attack types; do we want to neuter this strategy–to whatever degree stadium immobilization would affect it–by restricting the natural movement of the stadium?

The degree that a stadium may move depends entirely on the surface on which it is being used, making the effect largely unpredictable. However, there's many aspects of this game that are unpredictable; just because it's unpredictable doesn't mean it should not be seen as valid/legal.
Jul. 29, 2012  7:45 PM
 
(Jul. 29, 2012  6:54 AM)Kei Wrote: Should we necessarily view stadium movement as something negative ...? I've started to think that perhaps we shouldn't. The only instance in which stadium movement is a significant factor is Tornado Stalling with Attack types; do we want to neuter this strategy–to whatever degree stadium immobilization would affect it–by restricting the natural movement of the stadium?

This is another response I was expecting, and I will say now that if this becomes the widespread opinion on this matter I will try to make customs that specifically move the stadium intentionally. HOWEVER:

(Jul. 29, 2012  6:54 AM)Kei Wrote: The degree that a stadium may move depends entirely on the surface on which it is being used, making the effect largely unpredictable. However, there's many aspects of this game that are unpredictable; just because it's unpredictable doesn't mean it should not be seen as valid/legal.

This is the part that would keep me from making a custom like I just mentioned, as using my stadium-moving combo with my stadium on my carpet might be vastly different from its performance with the stadium on, say, grass.

That is really the main point of this thread: I feel like it would be good to somehow standardize the amount that a stadium moves for the sake of true consistency, though like I said in one of the poll options, it might be more confusing than helpful in the long run.
Page 1
Next