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SA165 Discussion

Sep. 18, 2012  2:33 PM
 
I finally got around to testing th!nk's defense comparison request for SA165EDS vs BD145EDS. I also added in E230EDS, and was pleasantly suprised. He asked for an attack combo that would not 20-0, so I decided on Flash Scorpio W145MF as the attack combo to test against. I chose it because it won't 20-0, it is well known, and it will show off a little bit of EDS's stamina along with its defence.

No tornado stalling, I went for the KO with Flash. Duo was of course in Stamina mode. When I say "pointing" I mean the largest side of SA165 was facing that direction. And "boost" mode for E230, is where the disk is closest to the metal wheel. (note: I used Sagittario II because it is the heaviest CW I have and Duo doesn't rattle with it)

BB-10
Beylauncher, Beylauncher L/R
Duo always launched first
EDS was never used before these tests, and Flash is fairly new

MF-Duo Sagittario II BD145EDS vs Flash Scorpio W145MF
Duo - 9 wins (all OS)
Flash - 11 wins (all KO)
BD145EDS win % = 45%

MF-Duo Sagittario II SA165(pointing up)EDS vs Flash Scorpio W145MF
Duo - 7 wins (all OS)
Flash - 13 wins (all KO)
SA165(Normal)EDS win % = 35%

MF-Duo Sagittario II SA165(pointing down)EDS vs Flash Scorpio W145MF
Duo - 10 wins (all OS)
Flash - 10 wins (all KO)
SA165(Attack)EDS win % = 50%

MF-Duo Sagittario II E230(normal)EDS vs Flash Scorpio W145MF
Duo - 10 wins (7 OS, 3 KO)
Flash - 10 wins (all KO)
E230(normal)EDS win % = 50%

MF-Duo Sagittario II E230(Boost)EDS vs Flash Scorpio W145MF
Duo - 15 wins (all OS)
Flash - 5 wins (all KO)
E230(boost)EDS win % = 75%

The attack mode actually worked better defensively. I believe the reason for this is that SA165 would sometimes catch the tornado ridge and the ridge before the exits when Flash would get a hit that would normally KO. Also, it would do this without affecting Duo's stamina much at all.

I was very suprised with E230EDS, especially in boost mode. I still cannot quite figure out why boost mode did better than normal mode defensively. The only thing I can come up with is that Flash did not have as much to grab on to.
Sep. 19, 2012  1:19 AM
 
i still want to see xf on SA165 pointing down in a zero g stadium battle test against a defence that everyone knows works well
(Sep. 07, 2012  5:29 AM)Dark_Mousy Wrote:
(Sep. 07, 2012  5:12 AM)HinTin Wrote: is sd really that dominate in zero g I would like to see eds and ds tests using this track in stand alone spin tests
if you do battle tests it could prove eds to be any more amazing
*even

Ill get to those this weekend. They should be up Saturday. Friday is completely booked. <_>

which saturday
Sep. 26, 2012  4:33 PM
 
@th!nk - you asked for some general observations about SA165. I have been messing around with it a lot lately in a bunch of random informal tests. Everything from defense, stamina, attack, to solo spin. Here are a couple of real quick observations on each:

-Attack
Spoiler (Click to View)

-Defense
Spoiler (Click to View)

-Stamina/Solo spin
Spoiler (Click to View)
I hope this is kind of what you were looking for.
Sep. 26, 2012  5:10 PM
 
@Kain_Highwind: When I launched my Duo SA165 SD I launched full strength. My SD were brand new out of the box. Ill redo my test this afternoon.
Sep. 26, 2012  5:17 PM
 
(Sep. 26, 2012  5:10 PM)Dark_Mousy Wrote: @Kain_Highwind: When I launched my Duo SA165 SD I launched full strength. My SD were brand new out of the box. Ill redo my test this afternoon.

In case I came across the wrong way, I am by no means saying you were in correct or that my tests disproved yours. In fact, I am sure there is a better chance that I am doing something wrong. My SD, even though it was never used, moved a lot more than my WD did in the beginning. That is what made me think I was launching too hard with my SD. I am redoing mine as well.

Update: Ok, I figured part of it out. Just did a few more WD tests and I was getting random results between 3 and 4 min. There was also a lot more motion than I remembered. So I wanted to check the tip to make sure it was clean. When I looked at the bottom I realized SA165 was not all the way locked in. So I took it all the way apart, made sure to clip the tip on first, then screwed the facebolt in. I know that it has already been figured out that you have to put SA165 on this way with Duo. But, make sure to do it everytime you change tips, even if the tip happens to clip on without doing this. After I put it back together the right way, I did another couple of solo spins with WD, Duo hardly moved in the beginning, and I got 5:07.9 and 5:21.5!
Sep. 27, 2012  7:21 PM
 
Sorry for the double post but this would have been too big of an update.

Ok, I am convinced SA165(normal) should be top tier stamina. I have been messing around a lot with Duo Aquario SA165(normal)WD and I love it. I unfortunately do not have 2 Duos or a Phantom to test and prove that it is top tier so I decided to go a different direction to try and prove this. I already know that Duo Aquario SA165(normal)WD can solo spin for 5 min +, and I compared that to Duo Aquario W145WD(same WD) which solo spun for an average of about 3 min 35 sec. I also know that Duo has superior stamina compared to Death. What I decided to do to try and prove Duo SA165(normal)WD is tier worthy is try SA165(normal)WD on Death, and test it against Duo W145WD. If Death SA165(normal)WD can beat the top tier Duo W145WD then surely Duo SA165(normal)WD would toast Duo W145WD.

BB-10 Attack Stadium
Beylauncher, Beylauncher L/R
Duo shot first on odd rounds, Death shot first on even rounds
Ties will be redone, which ever one was shot first when the tie happened will be shot first the following round to truely redo the round
WDs were swapped after the 10th round
Both were straight shot with everything possible done to prevent launching one into the other

Death Pegasus SA165(normal)WD vs. Duo Aquario W145WD
Details (Click to View)
Death - 9 wins (all OS)
Duo - 11 wins (all OS)
2 Ties, both redone
Death win % - 45%

Ok, so Death SA165(normal)WD did not quite beat Duo W145WD but they are so close to being evenly matched. For all but one round, the one that was launched 2nd won. Duo still comes out on top here because it would win by several more rotations than Death did when it won. Even still, just by adding SA165(normal)WD to Death it boosted it up to almost current tier stamina status, think what it would do to Duo. I wish I had Phantom now because I would love to see how much SA165(normal)WD would improve Phantom's stamina.
Sep. 29, 2012  2:48 AM
 
What do you mean by "Defense" Mode? SA165 only has a Normal and Attack Mode...
Sep. 29, 2012  3:15 AM
 
I guess normal mode then. In my first set of tests I reference the direction the largest part of the disk is pointing. Sorry, I couldn't find anywhere where it clarified the modes.
Sep. 29, 2012  5:04 PM
 
SA165 has two modes. The first mode is Normal Mode, where it it's facing upwards, like a cup.
The second mode, which I recall being Zero-G Attack Mode, is where it's facing downwards, like an upside down cup.
If you're still unsure, here's a photo:
Sep. 29, 2012  6:37 PM
 
Thank you for clarifying. When I get to a computer I will make all the necessary edits.

EDIT: the edits have been made. Thanks again Insomniac and Raigeko13 for helping correct that.
Sep. 30, 2012  10:23 PM
 
SA165 Defense Testing
Spoiler (Click to View)

SA165 Stamina Testing
Spoiler (Click to View)
Sep. 30, 2012  10:30 PM
 
Very Interesting Results! Seems that the Meta Game will be going through some shifts in Stamina Grin. As someone mentioned before I would really like to see SA165MB vs 230MB/TH170MB. Also, I think Phantom did better in Duo in some of those matches because Phantom is Wider for Destabilization and it has more Recoil (Insert Better word to use here) that it can turn on it's opponent while Duo actually grinds from a higher height from what I have seen so it makes sense taller Duo Combos would win while Phantom would do better on a lower track to use some of its Destability powers.
Sep. 30, 2012  10:47 PM
 
(Sep. 30, 2012  10:30 PM)*Billy* Wrote: Very Interesting Results! Seems that the Meta Game will be going through some shifts in Stamina Grin. As someone mentioned before I would really like to see SA165MB vs 230MB/TH170MB.

Hmm, I don't know. I feel like SA165MB would only do worse than SA165WD did against 230MB, but the extra height MB provides could help.

(Sep. 30, 2012  10:30 PM)*Billy* Wrote: Also, I think Phantom did better in Duo in some of those matches because Phantom is Wider for Destabilization and it has more Recoil (Insert Better word to use here) that it can turn on it's opponent while Duo actually grinds from a higher height from what I have seen so it makes sense taller Duo Combos would win while Phantom would do better on a lower track to use some of its Destability powers.

Ah yeah, you could be right.
Sep. 30, 2012  11:19 PM
 
I cannot find tests with SA165 vs 230MB if that is what you meant? If I missed them please show them to me.

I really wanted to see if 230 could defeat SA165 which is my hypothesis from your test results of 170 and 195 doing very well but 230 I think would still need to be tested for accuracy. MB is more of a staple instead of confusing D tips MB works on both besides 230MB titlting stuff which I don't think would be used against a Stamina type but I could be wrong not reading much of the Duo230MB thread, also, I wanted MB for Zero-G XD

I say Confsing D tips because 230D vs AD145/W145WD I feel could be diffeent they are not the same tip which affects things but WD doesn't work at that height I think MB would be more accurate in most cases.
Oct. 01, 2012  4:37 AM
 
(Sep. 30, 2012  11:19 PM)*Billy* Wrote: I cannot find tests with SA165 vs 230MB if that is what you meant? If I missed them please show them to me.

I really wanted to see if 230 could defeat SA165 which is my hypothesis from your test results of 170 and 195 doing very well but 230 I think would still need to be tested for accuracy. MB is more of a staple instead of confusing D tips MB works on both besides 230MB titlting stuff which I don't think would be used against a Stamina type but I could be wrong not reading much of the Duo230MB thread, also, I wanted MB for Zero-G XD

I say Confsing D tips because 230D vs AD145/W145WD I feel could be diffeent they are not the same tip which affects things but WD doesn't work at that height I think MB would be more accurate in most cases.


Ill get to some 230 MB tests tomorrow. Ill do TH170 MB & 230 MB tests tomorrow after work. Ill do MF H Duo Cancer 230 MB vs Phantom Orion SA165 WD/SD
Oct. 01, 2012  10:17 AM
 
(Sep. 30, 2012  10:47 PM)Kei Wrote: Hmm, I don't know. I feel like SA165MB would only do worse than SA165WD did against 230MB, but the extra height MB provides could help.

You are correct, I can safely confirm that SA165 MB does worse than SA165 WD, regardless of the extra height.

(Sep. 30, 2012  10:23 PM)Kei Wrote: Summary: SA165 annihilates 145-height Stamina customs, but has trouble against 170+ height Stamina customs.

This part is only valid for same spin direction. This is where the Dragooon part comes in. Opposite spin SA165 EWD will yield near 100% win rate against taller tracks.
Oct. 01, 2012  1:08 PM
 
(Oct. 01, 2012  10:17 AM)Uwik Wrote: You are correct, I can safely confirm that SA165 MB does worse than SA165 WD, regardless of the extra height.

I figured as much. It doesn't make much sense to use MB on SA165 against taller opponents (though it might be interesting to try it against lower opponents, even though I think 230MB covers that ground well enough already); the wobbling it provides is useless when it's just going to be pushed down in the end anyways.

(Oct. 01, 2012  10:17 AM)Uwik Wrote: This part is only valid for same spin direction. This is where the Dragooon part comes in. Opposite spin SA165 EWD will yield near 100% win rate against taller tracks.

Ah, yeah. I should have been more specific; I meant my testing specifically was saying that was the case. Left-spin has always given taller Tracks trouble.
Oct. 01, 2012  2:50 PM
 
Kei Wrote:I love using Attack Mode. SA165 doesn't hang low enough that it scrapes easily, but what it does do is a) prevent it from toppling over as quickly as it would otherwise, especially when you're using it in combination with the precession of RDF, and b) when it gets pushed/hit to the edge, the "disk" of SA165 hits the Tornado Ridge(s), potentially saving it from being KOed.

I love this feature about SA165 so much. It also does the same thing for attack types that rebound after a hard hit. A hit that would usualy result in a rebound self KO is sometimes saved by the disk catching the ridge.

I would really like to see some SA165BWD tests. I noticed Blitz used that in his recent zero g tournament, and I am curious how it would work in the BB-10.
Oct. 01, 2012  3:40 PM
 
(Oct. 01, 2012  2:50 PM)Kain_Highwind Wrote: I would really like to see some SA165BWD tests. I noticed Blitz used that in his recent zero g tournament, and I am curious how it would work in the BB-10.

I'm not sure how well BWD would do in BB-10. Isn't it sharper than WD? I haven't tested it myself yet, but I would tend to think that the sharpness of it would decrease it's balance/ability to stay upright/precess.
Oct. 01, 2012  4:30 PM
 
Thus far I've only heard good things about it (including in BB-10), although formal testing hasn't emerged yet.
Oct. 01, 2012  4:52 PM
 
From my informal testing on BWD against WD in BB-10 on Earth Cancer 145's it seems pretty equal to WD. Blitz's combo he used in the Zero G tourney did very well. When we get around to having a Zero G tier list that combo is likely to be on it.
Oct. 02, 2012  10:07 PM
 
Edit: Well I tried to do some comparisons tests, but a misleading factor arose during my testing. I was typing this up as I was testing so please excuse the less than organized post. Hopefully someone can still get some good info out of these tests.

Spoiler (Click to View)
Oct. 02, 2012  10:27 PM
 
I don't really understand what you're upset about? Those seem like useful tests to me...
Oct. 03, 2012  12:23 AM
 
Haha....its not really that I'm upset. Its more like mixed emotions. Upset that I don't have another Reviser to do pure comparisons, but exited that it seems Gargoyle has more of a defensive use than we thought. And that SA165 is a really fun track. I don't see it completely replacing BD145, but it should definitely be an almost equal alternative.
Oct. 03, 2012  3:27 PM
 
(Oct. 02, 2012  10:07 PM)Kain_Highwind Wrote: Gargole tests

A bit off topic, I apologize, but that's extremely intriguing, how you say Gargole was able to just "brush off" Flash. Could you go a bit more in depth with those tests in the Gargole discussion? I really want another reason to buy Archer Gargole. :p

As for the tests, thanks. Crazy how flipping a Synchrome made such a huge difference on performance. And SA165 was in Attack Mode too...

Kain, do you happen to have a Zero-G Attack Type Beystadium? I'd love to see Zero-G Attack Mode tested with it on MSF/-H (Synchrome, preferrably Begirados² if you have that, but any will do fine) SA165 (Zero-G Attack Mode) CF/GCF/XF.
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