Reasons for R2F to be banned?

With RS around I feel Limited is nearly perfect right now. Attack is strong, Defense isn't too overpowered, and Stamina and Balance are just fine. Banning R2F only limits the strength of the current Attack roster and gives Defense more power, with a potential reason to reban RS.

Definitely like the tests and work put in the topic, but can't say I agree with the idea.
I dont quite know what the metagame is like in limited considering i dont do tournaments any more, so what i say may not be valid (though the meta is based on the parts i used when i played a lot so im more able to speak my mind then in standard).
However as a person who usually plays/played attack at tournaments (being one of the few people who did in toronto.. times have changed though), I am going to say my 2 cents anyways

Attack is the risky choice, it just is. And in a tournament setting it sometimes the worst because of it.

I have found that generally (not always, but usually), for attack to win it needs to win in the first few seconds of the game. You mess up that launch.. miss the first few passes at your opponent the chance of getting a KO starts to drop greatly, or maybe you happen to self KO and loose through that.. and man the pressure of being in a tournament, knowing that your winning is completely dependent on your skill on getting that flower pattern messes you up (even if just a little bit).

and R2F generally makes that margin for error become even larger due to sheer speed and aggressiveness.

Yes an R2F attack combo would probably KO whatever it wants to.. but its also the hardest to get that win for, so most people dont really do it.

anyways, banning R2F would mean people would just use RF which, imo is still quite capable of KOing whatever it wants as long as things are good, and is more controllable.
get rid of RF as well and then you got the plastic F tips and MF.
now i dont know anything about MF, but i have used all the other F tips.. Getting a successful flower pattern is hard, and with base F or HF wont hit hard enough usually to get the KO. and if you go with the larger Extreme or Giga flat you will have the power to KO, but the control to connect goes down..

Edit:
I should mention that I am not opposed or for the banning of R2F. i personally would rather use RF either way.
I'm just speaking my mind as a guy who likes attack types
What I remember is nothing can grip as well as R2F, and since what R2F traded off for its extreme speed is its stamina as a rubber tip. Due to the fact that R2F is even more crappy in stamina, it always gets stopped by defenses or staminas which, if lucky enough, to withstand the first strongest blast, and later on R2F can't really do a lot.

Besides, attack types are already weaker in its own, if it wasn't being dynamic then I doubt anyone would really use it for its unstableness and unwillingness to stay in the middle of the stadium. With the loss of an almost irreplacable tip this would get serious.
#JustUseGRF

[Image: xlWm_S.gif]
I can't stop watching that for some reason, Pegasis ramming it out is just satisfying to watch.
Yeah. If the ban of r2f DOES occur, I do have an excellent combo with gcf:

MF-H BEAT HORUSEUS 100 GCF.

I used 100 because it is a little more stable than a lower track.

(Jun. 25, 2015  10:56 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: This is a ridiculous proposal. Banning R2F makes attack weaker and more inconsistent than it was already in tournament situations. Banning R2F also hardly gives a reason why other Rubber attack tips shouldn't be banned at the same time. Banning rubber tips ruins attack. Plastic or Metal Flat tips don't do nearly the same job. Plastic doesn't grip well and I don't care what you say about "mastering" a technique but in reality no. You can practice all you want but it won't grip it good not to mention after contact it will probably go into stall. There is no reason to ban R2F as it hasn't dominated and completely shut down a meta ever. Not to mention tournament results say otherwise. Attack is really hard to use in a tournament, pressure and many other things come into play when you are playing. I have seen Rubber Flat attack lose to stamina as much as it has beaten it. Attack is already inconsistent as its primary winning option is to knock out the opposing beyblade and trying to make this inconsistent type of beyblade even less likely to win is ridiculous. Stamina would take over more than it already has. Your experiment in the OP is quite dumb, comparing a sway attack tip to one actually meant to force KO the other beyblade out of the stadium. That makes no since and serves no purpose to actually try to do that. In your first statement the reason it outclasses the majority of flat tips for regular attack is because half of them aren't meant for attack. Your second point is also not that valid. There are many tips that beat more than others. Look at RS, beats as many things as Rubber Flat tips. There are even a few more tips like this examples as well. Your third point doesn't make since either. If it is mainly used on something of its type it just means it's generally better than the other options, and to be honest if you look at your other options what would you use for a consistent attack type. I also haven't seen all this "motivation" to use it at events, stadiums have walls and it usually leads to really inconsistent battles. Not to mention your opponents launch comes into play.

In conclusion there doesn't really seem like much reason why rubber flat tips should be banned and if anything it is actually healthy for the meta as it keeps some customizations in check that would otherwise take a firm grip over the meta.

Also sorry if this post is hard to read because I didn't make spaces between a lot of lines, I'm on a phone right now so it was kinda hard to make the post look as nice as possible.

Well.... what i'm trying to prove is this:
When you have parts that are already used over and over, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your own combo, when there are such little parts that are top tier. It doesn't limit power, it limits the overall concept of customizations; there are enough flats that may not have grip, but hey; it also makes you find ways to use those disadvantages and make them advantages. When that isn't practiced, it's like bringing stock beyblades to a tournament; set gimmicks, set power, and set weaknesses, no fun in finding ways to make disadvantages advantages...
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Yeah. If the ban of r2f DOES occur, I do have an excellent combo with gcf:

MF-H BEAT HORUSEUS 100 GCF.

I used 100 because it is a little more stable than a lower track.

Err.. isn't Beat banned from limited?
or is it not a 4D Wheel?
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:16 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Yeah. If the ban of r2f DOES occur, I do have an excellent combo with gcf:

MF-H BEAT HORUSEUS 100 GCF.

I used 100 because it is a little more stable than a lower track.

Err.. isn't Beat banned from limited?
or is it not a 4D Wheel?

I mean the metal fury version; the hollowed out one by hasbro.

besides: all thats needed is to have a more gattyaki-sliding shot kind of launch pattern (launching very shortly AFTER the opponent launches, like you launch at the t instead of s in shoot, or p instead of r in rip); I assume this can be a way of attempting to destroy the opponent like you would in a home battle.
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Well.... what i'm trying to prove is this:
When you have parts that are already used over and over, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your own combo, when there are such little parts that are top tier. It doesn't limit power, it limits the overall concept of customizations; there are enough flats that may not have grip, but hey; it also makes you find ways to use those disadvantages and make them advantages. When that isn't practiced, it's like bringing stock beyblades to a tournament; set gimmicks, set power, and set weaknesses, no fun in finding ways to make disadvantages advantages...

Then why not just Ban the D series of tips.
i mean they are some of the best, most used tips for stamina, and in a tournament setting people generally go stamina anyways as it is the "Safest" option
Instead of using D people could use the S tips? learn to find ways to use those disadvantages and turn them into advantages.

the argument goes both ways, with EVERY type of beyblade!

Now i am a HUGE fan of using weird unorthodox combos, using tips most people wouldn't even consider *cough*JB*cough*
and the tips like WF/XF/GF/just the non rubber flats, are good for those types of combos (Counter attack combos, destablizers, etc.. im reminded of the Ldrago 90(i think it was)WF)

However for pure smash attack they dont fair as well due to that lack of control. and as for those unorthodox combos, they are even more risky and situational then attack is.

Really all banning R2F would do is make the hardest type of combos to use, less viable.. (except RF is still around)
and if you get rid of RF as well, then you are just taking an even bigger chance.
Sure there are people who could make it work. but still
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:35 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Well.... what i'm trying to prove is this:
When you have parts that are already used over and over, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your own combo, when there are such little parts that are top tier. It doesn't limit power, it limits the overall concept of customizations; there are enough flats that may not have grip, but hey; it also makes you find ways to use those disadvantages and make them advantages. When that isn't practiced, it's like bringing stock beyblades to a tournament; set gimmicks, set power, and set weaknesses, no fun in finding ways to make disadvantages advantages...

Then why not just Ban the D series of tips.
i mean they are some of the best, most used tips for stamina, and in a tournament setting people generally go stamina anyways as it is the "Safest" option
Instead of using D people could use the S tips? learn to find ways to use those disadvantages and turn them into advantages.

the argument goes both ways, with EVERY type of beyblade!

Now i am a HUGE fan of using weird unorthodox combos, using tips most people wouldn't even consider *cough*JB*cough*
and the tips like WF/XF/GF/just the non rubber flats, are good for those types of combos (Counter attack combos, destablizers, etc.. im reminded of the Ldrago 90(i think it was)WF)

However for pure smash attack they dont fair as well due to that lack of control. and as for those unorthodox combos, they are even more risky and situational then attack is.

Really all banning R2F would do is make the hardest type of combos to use, less viable.. (except RF is still around)
and if you get rid of RF as well, then you are just taking an even bigger chance.
Sure there are people who could make it work. but still
I don't think D tips should be banned because even though alot of people use them they are not overpowered.
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:44 AM)UltimateOrion Wrote: I don't think D tips should be banned because even though alot of people use them they are not overpowered.

lol, i didn't mean it seriously. as shown by me saying "the argument goes both ways, with EVERY type of beyblade!"
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:35 AM)lord Wolfblade Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Well.... what i'm trying to prove is this:
When you have parts that are already used over and over, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your own combo, when there are such little parts that are top tier. It doesn't limit power, it limits the overall concept of customizations; there are enough flats that may not have grip, but hey; it also makes you find ways to use those disadvantages and make them advantages. When that isn't practiced, it's like bringing stock beyblades to a tournament; set gimmicks, set power, and set weaknesses, no fun in finding ways to make disadvantages advantages...

Then why not just Ban the D series of tips.
i mean they are some of the best, most used tips for stamina, and in a tournament setting people generally go stamina anyways as it is the "Safest" option
Instead of using D people could use the S tips? learn to find ways to use those disadvantages and turn them into advantages.

the argument goes both ways, with EVERY type of beyblade!

Now i am a HUGE fan of using weird unorthodox combos, using tips most people wouldn't even consider *cough*JB*cough*
and the tips like WF/XF/GF/just the non rubber flats, are good for those types of combos (Counter attack combos, destablizers, etc.. im reminded of the Ldrago 90(i think it was)WF)

However for pure smash attack they dont fair as well due to that lack of control. and as for those unorthodox combos, they are even more risky and situational then attack is.

Really all banning R2F would do is make the hardest type of combos to use, less viable.. (except RF is still around)
and if you get rid of RF as well, then you are just taking an even bigger chance.
Sure there are people who could make it work. but still

You said the d SERIES. I'm just targeting one beyblade tip, not the whole set of flats.
(Jun. 26, 2015  1:51 AM)Sion Wrote: You said the d SERIES. I'm just targeting one beyblade tip, not the whole set of flats.

I say the D series as D, SD, and WD are almost all completely interchangeable

Though i guess WD is the best to single out
Well, the question is, do you want all rubber Attack tips banned, or just R2F? Because if it was just R2F people would legit just shrug it off and use RF or LRF, so there's not much logic behind that. I'll just assume it's the former.

I will admit, Attack is a lot more prevalent in Limited than it is in Standard, but according to Kai-V and several other users, if Attack is slightly overpowered it is a sign of a healthy meta. That's why so many people enjoy playing HMS (besides that fact that it's Beyblade), Defense doesn't have as many viable options as Attack or Stamina. I'll also admit that for example at AN, although I'm not confident or skilled with Attack I used it more than other types because it felt like the safest option. You definitely have a point with Attack being too strong, but banning R2F or rubber Attack tips isn't the way to go about it.

The thing is that Attack types are supposed to beat Defense. Not 100% of the time, but a considerable amount of the time. Attack types are by nature difficult to use (you've said it yourself, it takes a lot of practice to get the heck of the Sliding Shoot), because they require a lot more skill to launch correctly so you land hits and don't self KO. Like you also said, tournament situations are a lot more tense and there's more pressure, so you're more likely to make a mistake. These outside factors and people's reluctance to use them is what's supposed to balance out Attack types, not banning a part that's arguably their most important component. Kei and the committee had the right idea when they unbanned RS rather than banning Omega.

If we ban rubber Attack tips it basically takes a whole type out of the metagame rather than opening up new options. Unless every competitive player just suddenly becomes as skilled with Attack as Meow!, no one will be able to Sliding Shoot XF/GCF/WF/GF and get similar results to the average player's RF. Attack types will actually fall out of use, and Defense types soon after. All that would be left would be 230MB/230/TH170D, 90/85EWD, Meteo, B:D, Burn Stallers, F230GCF, and the occasional Wvang RSF or Lightning RB. In short, you will be accomplishing the exact opposite of what you want.
(Jun. 26, 2015  2:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: Well, the question is, do you want all rubber Attack tips banned, or just R2F? Because if it was just R2F people would legit just shrug it off and use RF or LRF, so there's not much logic behind that. I'll just assume it's the former.

I will admit, Attack is a lot more prevalent in Limited than it is in Standard, but according to Kai-V and several other users, if Attack is slightly overpowered it is a sign of a healthy meta. That's why so many people enjoy playing HMS (besides that fact that it's Beyblade), Defense doesn't have as many viable options as Attack or Stamina. I'll also admit that for example at AN, although I'm not confident or skilled with Attack I used it more than other types because it felt like the safest option. You definitely have a point with Attack being too strong, but banning R2F or rubber Attack tips isn't the way to go about it.

The thing is that Attack types are supposed to beat Defense. Not 100% of the time, but a considerable amount of the time. Attack types are by nature difficult to use (you've said it yourself, it takes a lot of practice to get the heck of the Sliding Shoot), because they require a lot more skill to launch correctly so you land hits and don't self KO. Like you also said, tournament situations are a lot more tense and there's more pressure, so you're more likely to make a mistake. These outside factors and people's reluctance to use them is what's supposed to balance out Attack types, not banning a part that's arguably their most important component. Kei and the committee had the right idea when they unbanned RS rather than banning Omega.

If we ban rubber Attack tips it basically takes a whole type out of the metagame rather than opening up new options. Unless every competitive player just suddenly becomes as skilled with Attack as Meow!, no one will be able to Sliding Shoot XF/GCF/WF/GF and get similar results to the average player's RF. Attack types will actually fall out of use, and Defense types soon after. All that would be left would be 230MB/230/TH170D, 90/85EWD, Meteo, BGrin, Burn Stallers, F230GCF, and the occasional Wvang RSF or Lightning RB. In short, you will be accomplishing the exact opposite of what you want.

finally someone that understands!

I am aiming for r2f and lrf in particullar. RF? I have no big problem with, since it isn't AS aggressive. RF would keep one window open for bladers of that style.

R2F i find too agressive, while I find RF Just right to stay in the metagame.
(Jun. 26, 2015  12:23 AM)TenshouTsubasa Wrote: What I remember is nothing can grip as well as R2F, and since what R2F traded off for its extreme speed is its stamina as a rubber tip.


Actually, because of RF's lower speed it has better grip to the stadium.


(Jun. 26, 2015  1:09 AM)Sion Wrote: Well.... what i'm trying to prove is this:
When you have parts that are already used over and over, it kind of defeats the purpose of having your own combo, when there are such little parts that are top tier. It doesn't limit power, it limits the overall concept of customizations; there are enough flats that may not have grip, but hey; it also makes you find ways to use those disadvantages and make them advantages.


I think you should take a look back at Bey Brad's post:

(Jun. 25, 2015  11:30 PM)Bey Brad Wrote: It's just an inherent part of Beyblade that a few combinations shine above all else. The purpose of Limited is not to simply ban the strongest parts; it's to provide a broader range of viable strategies so that competitive play is less predictable and more fun.

You're really thinking like this is Standard. In Limited, there are way more viable options when it comes to part choosing. Especially in Metal Wheel choice. In Attack tips it's still pretty broad, you can use R2F/RF/LRF/MF/CF?(IG if you consider it attack to use things like LLD F230CF).

Banning both R2F and LRF that's taking a huge hit to an already partially limited range of tips. RF just doesn't have the speed to go toe-to-toe with things like MF-H Libra GB145RSF and I speak from experience, Libra is really tough to go up against using RF, it seems like it would do better, but it just doesn't.


(Jun. 26, 2015  2:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: The thing is that Attack types are supposed to beat Defense. Not 100% of the time, but a considerable amount of the time.

Actually, they're not, hah. Attack<Defense<Stamina<Attack

Attack is designed to KO Stamina types. Defense is designed to defend and outspin Attack types. Stamina is meant to outspin Defense types.
I think you meant Defense is designed to defend and outspin Attack types. Smile

It only makes sense that Attack type is incredibly powerful when used perfectly because it is also the most difficult to use. In fact, the degree of skill it requires versus any other type means that an Attack type user is playing almost a completely different game from players using Defense or Stamina types.
(Jun. 26, 2015  3:03 AM)Sion Wrote: I am aiming for r2f and lrf in particullar. RF? I have no big problem with, since it isn't AS aggressive. RF would keep one window open for bladers of that style.

R2F i find too agressive, while I find RF Just right to stay in the metagame.

(Jun. 26, 2015  3:31 AM)Echizen Wrote: You're really thinking like this is Standard. In Limited, there are way more viable options when it comes to part choosing. Especially in Metal Wheel choice. In Attack tips it's still pretty broad, you can use R2F/RF/LRF/MF/CF?(IG if you consider it attack to use things like LLD F230CF).

Banning both R2F and LRF that's taking a huge hit to an already partially limited range of tips. RF just doesn't have the speed to go toe-to-toe with things like MF-H Libra GB145RSF and I speak from experience, Libra is really tough to go up against using RF, it seems like it would do better, but it just doesn't.

Actually, the difference between RF and R2F/LRF isn't as drastic as you both seem to think, especially in Limited. True, on some of the heavier Standard Attack customs you might need R2F/LRF for that little extra kick when recoil isn't as big of an issue and you need your 70 gram chunk of metal to move as fast as possible. And on Standard Anti-Attack and RF Defense prefer the small amount of extra Stamina, Recoil control, and rotation speed that RF gives as opposed to R2F/LRF. But regardless, the three are listed as interchangeable on your Tier List.

The difference between the three is even smaller in Limited, where almost everything is between 30~40 grams and will be moving at nearly the same speed anyways. From my experience I have found that the improved recoil control and rotation speed from RF to be more beneficial in a lighter format, with not that significant a difference in power. This discussion actually makes me want to search through the 100+ boxes in my house so I can find my MFB and back this statement up with testing.

EDIT:


(Jun. 26, 2015  3:31 AM)Echizen Wrote:
(Jun. 26, 2015  2:19 AM)Wombat Wrote: The thing is that Attack types are supposed to beat Defense. Not 100% of the time, but a considerable amount of the time.

Actually, they're not, hah. Attack<Defense<Stamina<Attack

Attack is designed to KO Stamina types. Defense is designed to defend and outspin Stamina types. Stamina is meant to outspin Defense types.

I mean you're right about this, but I'm also right about this since we're both speaking theoretically. You're right in the sense that yes it's supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors triangle, where no type is supposed to dominate. But what I'm saying is that Attack types should beat Defense (again, not 100% of the time but more frequently that Stamina beats Attack or Defense beats Stamina). Their supposed dominance is balanced out by not only the Defensive Beyblades but also the greater skill level required to use them that some players lack and the resulting reluctance of those players to use Attack. We're both describing the ideal meta (which is what Limited is trying to be) but just on different fundamental levels.

EDIT: beaten by Brad and also I can't myBB
Ah yeah, thanks Bey Brad. Wink

(Jun. 26, 2015  5:27 AM)Wombat Wrote: I mean you're right about this, but I'm also right about this since we're both speaking theoretically. You're right in the sense that yes it's supposed to be a rock-paper-scissors triangle, where no type is supposed to dominate. But what I'm saying is that Attack types should beat Defense (again, not 100% of the time but more frequently that Stamina beats Attack or Defense beats Stamina).


Yeah I understand what you're saying. The measure of a good attack type is how well it performs against Defense types compared to other Attack types. Also with Defense types. MSF-H Reviser Reviser BD145RDF can be used to attempt a KO on a Stamina type. It's kind of different though for Defense and Stamina types like you said because it's harder get a sedintary type do change it's pattern of spin. Whereas with attack there's nothing your changing about how it moves.
If libra wsf defeats an rf beyblade, since rsf has no use in stamina, a well- rounded stamina type can defeat it, and the attack type wins? R2F kinda kills rsf AND the stamina type. RF is better for a balance, so I'm fine with rf in that matter.
If you want to ban R2F, Ban all the interesting part like duo, death, BD145, E230, RDF .... and don't make tournament
I think the best part of the beyblade training is to find combos which can defeat the best customizations, so when you go to a tournament, if the best parts are ban, sorry but the tournament is useless.
I worked many hours to find a combo which can defeat Orion by stamina lose (without duo), and to find the best attack combo which can eject the best defence combos, If you ban some parts, you ban the fun too
But It's my opinion, do what you want
Peace