what are you basing this on?

further, an attack type is part of almost every single finals deck
they might not need to be used, so they don’t end up in this thread as a winning combo

but the attack type is not phased out at all, attack types are required equipment in the current meta

if you don’t run some kind of attack threat, you are taking huge risks

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As you can clearly see, most tops include extremely little amounts of attack. These are the last 9 tournaments that have been posted (besides the one banning aH, hS, and rP).

Attack is needed in every deck to counter the Br driver, but that just shows the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters which I said earlier is an unhealthy meta.

ok we agree, attack is not phased out.  thanks.

also yes, the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters.  this is not an insight.

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As you can clearly see, most tops include extremely little amounts of attack. These are the last 9 tournaments that have been posted (besides the one banning aH, hS, and rP).

Attack is needed in every deck to counter the Br driver, but that just shows the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters which I said earlier is an unhealthy meta.

ok we agree, attack is not phased out.  thanks.

also yes, the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters.  this is not an insight.

A meta of a few best parts and their counters is unhealthy. There's no diversity or choice.

---

Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

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As you can clearly see, most tops include extremely little amounts of attack. These are the last 9 tournaments that have been posted (besides the one banning aH, hS, and rP).

Attack is needed in every deck to counter the Br driver, but that just shows the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters which I said earlier is an unhealthy meta.

ok we agree, attack is not phased out.  thanks.

also yes, the meta is made up of the best parts and their counters.  this is not an insight.

Whew...I was following this whole back and forth discussion since the beginning.

---

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12, Golden Time (I didn't like the way amnesia was portrayed in this, but that doesn't matter haha. One of the best Romance anime of all time. That's unless if you prefer Toradora.)
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14, Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai (Terrible title lmao. Great romcom anime.)
15, Tokyo Ghoul (One of my favorite looking anime of all time.)

To be honest I just think the meta is always broken g3 and sr are broken so is ah and Hs I just think that the meta will always be broke so way or some how I don’t think there will ever be a time we’re the meta is truly balance

Just to weigh in on this discussion, this tournament was the most fun most of us have had at a tournament for a long time. There were faces that came who haven't been in a while because how dull it is to just see hS aH and rP everywhere. The ability to test out new combos and play around with what has potential was great! 11/10 would do again.

I'd also like to point out that aH is physically dangerous. It has sharp edges and chips away at plastic for any bey taller than it in a similar way 12 does to shorter beys and for that alone I think it should be either banned or restricted to taller drivers. Banned is preferred though until something can be done about its invulnerability.

These 3 layers are insane. If you have none you have a 0% chance of placing unless no-one else uses them. I agree the meta would stabilise if these bans took effect but not to a state where you either use the same or very similar deck to everyone else and hope you last 1 rotation longer.

To address this absurd idea that TT wants 3 op beys and intentionally release dud pruloducts... What? That is awful business sense. They have hundreds of beys and you believe TT want you to only buy a handful? All you need is aH, hS, rP, something with atomic, something with 0 and something with decent stamina like yeilding or defense like bearing and you're set. What IS good business sense is having a whole bunch of releases at such a similar power level that the people who buy every release have the most options.

Yes. There was an attempt by a few of us to keep it interesting but I try that every tournament but never find a combo to challenge those 3. If not all are banned then that's fine, so long as aH is top priority and then hS, rP is strong but as has been said before CAN be taken out with a hyper aggressive combo that can either burst it with armour on OR land a few extremely powerful blows within the first few seconds.

I'd recommend this trial ban to be attempted a couple other times by some larger communities before making a decision though as the larger sample size, the better.

Worth noting that the lack of Xt+ is because no-one had it, as far as I'm aware.

This is an extremely complex discussion which deserves it's own topic. It highlights some pretty key philosophical differences in the ways some of us perceive the game on a competitive level, I think. To me this is about more than the basic "should we ban aH, hS, and rP?" question. This is more like "What does 'balance' and 'diversity' actually mean in competitive Beyblade?" and "What makes competitive Beyblade fun?" on a grander scale.

If anyone wants to continue debating the merits of the current metagame as it relates to the recent discussion here and status of certain parts, I would recommend creating a new thread in Discuss worldbeyblade.org. I'll try and chime in again this weekend when I have more time as there is certainly a lot to discuss here! It's been interesting reading through what everyone has to say so far.

---

All that stuff about the meta game was just ridiculous. Just get along people, the side who “trusts TT” needs to understand that TT doesn’t always make good decisions for the meta. Take Sr for example. The other side of the argument needs to understand that banning isn’t always the answer, and as unbalanced as it is, the meta would be less fun with less usable parts. Maybe there could be a burst limited format like that, but the meta would be fine with just simply nerfing rather than banning, like maybe aH and Hs can’t be used on top-tier stamina drivers like At,Br,R,Et.
Now PLEASE just stop arguing.

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hi

All that stuff about the meta game was just ridiculous. Just get along people, the side who “trusts TT” needs to understand that TT doesn’t always make good decisions for the meta. Take Sr for example. The other side of the argument needs to understand that banning isn’t always the answer, and as unbalanced as it is, the meta would be less fun with less usable parts. Maybe there could be a burst limited format like that, but the meta would be fine with just simply nerfing rather than banning, like maybe aH and Hs can’t be used on top-tier stamina drivers like At,Br,R,Et.
Now PLEASE just stop arguing.

And Xt+

---

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Oh yeah, since I never got to bring up the counterpoint, the results of the tournament that banned aH, hS, and rP has horribly inaccurate results by a long shot. In my personal opinion, god layers except Fafnir should not be seeing play.

On the actual topic if banning then, I agree with the last 2 comments, it would be best to "nerf" them with a part limit. The reason for this is actually pretty simple: There aren't enough Cho-Z layers in general to straight up remove them, so you need to keep them in some form for diversity.

Also, don't forget to ban Ds/Ds' on hS.

EDIT: Also, I definitely burst could benefit from having alternative formats, being Dual Layer Format and God Layer Format.

Dual Layer Format would ban the super strong drivers ([Octa], At, Ds, maybe Et), Cho-Z layers, God layers except for sR and kD cause they suck, L2 and D2, all frames, and the Zenith, Outer, 0, 7, 10, and 1' disks. (Probably is the meta would be dominated by Gravity, Polish, Yell, Nine for disks.)

God Layer Format would ban Cho-Z layers (maybe except bL? idk but he sure sucks), mG and Sr, Outer disk, and maybe Zenith, 0, 7, 10, and 1' if we think they'd just be too meta dominate (though then everyone uses 5 and 4?).

There's kinda a lot to debate on what would make the meta for these formats fun and healthy, especially the style of battle. Should it be 5 bey knock out (to 3 points per battle) with unique parts, only and loser gets counterpick? That's different from 3 bey deck, but would it be healthier?

---

Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

If you guys think that TT doesn't even care about what they are releasing, I can tell you that you are wrong(at least partially).eg:aB,dH,bearing,dC,cR
aB: Has absolutely weak teeth to compensate for how less recoil it has.
dH:Having so much weight,it  should be excelling in stamina combos.What is stopping from that happening?It's weak teeth.Why is it good in attack or balance combos? Because it can be used with dash drivers that support attack only(exceptions:Zephyr and destroy.They can be used in balance combos as well).
Bearing: everyone knows.
dC: Has weak teeth as well to compensate for its working spring gimmick.
cR:Has weak teeth to allow it to be countered by attack types easily.

---

2 Versus 2 format should be a thing. Change my mind.

Oh yeah, since I never got to bring up the counterpoint, the results of the tournament that banned aH, hS, and rP has horribly inaccurate results by a long shot. In my personal opinion, god layers except Fafnir should not be seeing play.

On the actual topic if banning then, I agree with the last 2 comments, it would be best to "nerf" them with a part limit. The reason for this is actually pretty simple: There aren't enough Cho-Z layers in general to straight up remove them, so you need to keep them in some form for diversity.

Also, don't forget to ban Ds/Ds' on hS.

EDIT: Also, I definitely burst could benefit from having alternative formats, being Dual Layer Format and God Layer Format.

Dual Layer Format would ban the super strong drivers ([Octa], At, Ds, maybe Et), Cho-Z layers, God layers except for sR and kD cause they suck, L2 and D2, all frames, and the Zenith, Outer, 0, 7, 10, and 1' disks. (Probably is the meta would be dominated by Gravity, Polish, Yell, Nine for disks.)

God Layer Format would ban Cho-Z layers (maybe except bL? idk but he sure sucks), mG and Sr, Outer disk, and maybe Zenith, 0, 7, 10, and 1' if we think they'd just be too meta dominate (though then everyone uses 5 and 4?).

There's kinda a lot to debate on what would make the meta for these formats fun and healthy, especially the style of battle. Should it be 5 bey knock out (to 3 points per battle) with unique parts, only and loser gets counterpick? That's different from 3 bey deck, but would it be healthier?

Shouldn't parts from other generations be automatically banned? Each format can only use parts from their generation or past generations. No need to consider what to ban.

Geist Fafnir 0 Proof Zephyr'
Bloody Longinus 12 Reach Hunter'
Z Achilles 13 Dagger Jolt
Orb Egis 7 Vortex Yielding

How did these combos even work?

---

2 Versus 2 format should be a thing. Change my mind.

Oh yeah, since I never got to bring up the counterpoint, the results of the tournament that banned aH, hS, and rP has horribly inaccurate results by a long shot. In my personal opinion, god layers except Fafnir should not be seeing play.

On the actual topic if banning then, I agree with the last 2 comments, it would be best to "nerf" them with a part limit. The reason for this is actually pretty simple: There aren't enough Cho-Z layers in general to straight up remove them, so you need to keep them in some form for diversity.

Also, don't forget to ban Ds/Ds' on hS.

EDIT: Also, I definitely burst could benefit from having alternative formats, being Dual Layer Format and God Layer Format.

Dual Layer Format would ban the super strong drivers ([Octa], At, Ds, maybe Et), Cho-Z layers, God layers except for sR and kD cause they suck, L2 and D2, all frames, and the Zenith, Outer, 0, 7, 10, and 1' disks. (Probably is the meta would be dominated by Gravity, Polish, Yell, Nine for disks.)

God Layer Format would ban Cho-Z layers (maybe except bL? idk but he sure sucks), mG and Sr, Outer disk, and maybe Zenith, 0, 7, 10, and 1' if we think they'd just be too meta dominate (though then everyone uses 5 and 4?).

There's kinda a lot to debate on what would make the meta for these formats fun and healthy, especially the style of battle. Should it be 5 bey knock out (to 3 points per battle) with unique parts, only and loser gets counterpick? That's different from 3 bey deck, but would it be healthier?

Shouldn't parts from other generations be automatically banned? Each format can only use parts from their generation or past generations. No need to consider what to ban.

No, because certain parts would never see the light of day in terms of use. Volcanic is a cool driver, but there's no Cho-Z layer that could use it. On the contrary, in a God Layer format it works well on Legend Spriggian due to its shape being able to knock people upwards.

---

Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

I really don't think Legend Spriggan would work well with Volcanic...

If you guys think that TT doesn't even care about what they are releasing, I can tell you that you are wrong(at least partially).eg:aB,dH,bearing,dC,cR
aB: Has absolutely weak teeth to compensate for how less recoil it has.
dH:Having so much weight,it  should be excelling in stamina combos.What is stopping from that happening?It's weak teeth.Why is it good in attack or balance combos? Because it can be used with dash drivers that support attack only(exceptions:Zephyr and destroy.They can be used in balance combos as well).
Bearing: everyone knows.
dC: Has weak teeth as well to compensate for its working spring gimmick.
cR:Has weak teeth to allow it to be countered by attack types easily.

If this were true, why are aH and hS so much more powerful with nearly unbeatable Defense, Stamina, and incredibly strong teeth to top it all off? Let's take a closer look at these designs and their relative intentions, shall we?

aH's moving bow gimmick speaks towards having some early offense, which would necessitate the stronger teeth (because let's be honest, Stamina layers tend to have fairly meh teeth) and hinder the overall spin time of the layer as it loses spin attacking at the beginning of the match as well as taking clicks. hS also speaks towards having offensive power, especially since it was released with 12 and the stupidly gimmicky Operate and has an "Attack Mode" to it. As an Attack/Defense hybrid, the bigger teeth make a lot of sense for handling recoil, but the metal on the outer edge gives it more Stamina than I think TT predicted.

To end it all, I think TT just thought about how they worked in theory and didn't really test it thoroughly enough to realize that neither actually had enough offensive power to limit them and bring them down to a fair level. Just looking at the designs I can see the thought, but there's a difference between thinking or caring about something and actually testing to see if those thoughts and expectations are accurate, and that's where I'm thinking things fell flat.

---

I will point out that the teeth of dH actually is a design testament in and of itself. When used with an offensive ' driver like the Z' it was released with, it can hold itself together like a normal Attack type would, capable of handling its own recoil as it strikes. If you choose to use it for Stamina instead, it retains the weak teeth and bursting weakness that many other Stamina types have. It's actually really, really clever how they went about doing that.

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Cincinnati-based Organizer, and owner of every single currently released TT Burst bey part in at least one color. Hard to think of anything I don't have from MFB either...

Alright, there we go. I've split this discussion from the Winning Combinations at WBO Events thread since it was kinda taking over.

Feel free to fully continue the discussion on what you think of how the metagame would be without the hS, aH, and rP layers (and whatnot related to that) from here on out, as this is the official topic of this thread.

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[[ Michigan Blader | Avatar photo by Ivan Kislov ]]

I would say go for some trial bans and see how the meta would stabilize. Would it be better or worse? Then make a decision based off of that.

As for Limited, again I say: Two kinds of Limited.
Single/Dual Layer Limited: All (or at least most late) God Layers and Cho-Z Layers banned and certain problem Single and Dual Layers such as the Deathscyther are banned but allow Core Disks and God/Cho-Z Drivers. Core Disks shouldn’t be too much of a problem due to how light Single/Dual Layers are. That should give us new options such as Victory Valkyrie for Attack, Gigant Gaia for Defense and Acid Anubis for Stamina

God Layer Limited: All Cho-Z Layer banned and some certain problem Layers such as Maximum Garuda and Spriggan Requiem are banned but allow Cho-Z Drivers. That should bring us back to something like the Legend Spriggan meta where we had incredibly powerful Attack Types to make the meta interesting. Or maybe even better, God had some of the best Attack type Layers I've ever seen. Legend Spriggan, Sieg Xcalibur, Nightmare Longinus, Twin Nemesis, maybe even Beat Kukulcan. It would be an amazing Attack Type dominant meta

Please, please ban them. Its pretty much the only thing keeping a lot of attack types and god layer beys from being viable. It would really help the meta and make it so you couldn't just spam aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br and sweep a tournament.

Please, please ban them. Its pretty much the only thing keeping a lot of attack types and god layer beys from being viable. It would really help the meta and make it so you couldn't just spam aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br and sweep a tournament.

you couldn’t spam your way through a tournament with aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br today

Xt+ is out now

do you want to ban that as well? lol.

this is why banning strong parts is problematic 

—-

picking and choosing winners in a competitive system needs constant guessing and second guessing
no matter what is banned there will always be a small number of actually usable parts

While banning makes the solution a lot easier, I prefer a more complicated solution. There's a reason for this, just look at the number of layers per class if you do ban them.

Attack: wV, bX, yα, hα, CzV soon.
Defense: eF, hK.
Stamina: cR, gF.
Balance: Sr, zA,  dH, CzS soon, and CzA (rumored) soon.

As you can see, there's a major lack of Defense and Stamina types, so propose a "nerf" to hS, aH, and rP. This means they are restricted from using certain parts, such as the At, Et, Br, Xt+, and (on hS) Ds/Ds' drivers, and potentially a disk nerf that pretty much forces them to use 5 or 8 or 8' (I haven't tested this yet, but it's an idea if it is needed).

The only issue with this idea is for the deck format finals, where the parts might need to be outright banned. That would make the finales very skewed towards attack types. You could impose that customs in deck format must follow the banlist guidelines, but it would make deck building harder and complicated if you ran these layers.

Of course, before making any decision, I think it would be best to see how ChoZ Valkyrie and ChoZ Spriggan deal with the menacing 3.

---

Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

We need to wait,we are getting new layers and drivers,xt+ outclassed or at least gave many drivers a run for they’re money.the new qs driver has potential,new Valkyrie to,new spriggan looks promising and new Achilles may be able to bring back atttack.and with this burst stop gimme cb wouldn’t the layers be op on bearing,specially spriggan

---

And may I ask if it’s confirmed that spriggan has the burst stop gimmick

---

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I would say go for some trial bans and see how the meta would stabilize. Would it be better or worse? Then make a decision based off of that.

As for Limited, again I say: Two kinds of Limited.
Single/Dual Layer Limited: All (or at least most late) God Layers and Cho-Z Layers banned and certain problem Single and Dual Layers such as the Deathscyther are banned but allow Core Disks and God/Cho-Z Drivers. Core Disks shouldn’t be too much of a problem due to how light Single/Dual Layers are. That should give us new options such as Victory Valkyrie for Attack, Gigant Gaia for Defense and Acid Anubis for Stamina

God Layer Limited: All Cho-Z Layer banned and some certain problem Layers such as Maximum Garuda and Spriggan Requiem are banned but allow Cho-Z Drivers. That should bring us back to something like the Legend Spriggan meta where we had incredibly powerful Attack Types to make the meta interesting. Or maybe even better, God had some of the best Attack type Layers I've ever seen. Legend Spriggan, Sieg Xcalibur, Nightmare Longinus, Twin Nemesis, maybe even Beat Kukulcan. It would be an amazing Attack Type dominant meta

It's a bit off topic to this thread, since this is about the current meta and not about ideas for legacy formats, but I do have ideas for a Dual Layer Format and a God Layer format. I did a bit of testing. The general idea is what you said (but 0 and 10 are banned in Dual, frames are banned in Dual), but there are exceptions to the main layer ban rule. Garbage god layers like sR and kD would be completely fine in Dual Layer. gV (non-Strike) for Dual layer needs a bit more testing, but would most likely be fair. bL would probably be fine in God Layer Format, but I haven't tested yet.

There's more to be said on this, so I'm going to make a dedicated thread for this at a later date (since it's off topic), but I think many people would like the idea.

---

Please, please ban them. Its pretty much the only thing keeping a lot of attack types and god layer beys from being viable. It would really help the meta and make it so you couldn't just spam aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br and sweep a tournament.

you couldn’t spam your way through a tournament with aH.10.Et or hS.0B.Br today

Xt+ is out now

do you want to ban that as well? lol.

this is why banning strong parts is problematic 

—-

picking and choosing winners in a competitive system needs constant guessing and second guessing
no matter what is banned there will always be a small number of actually usable parts

Xt+ on aH has counters. If I remember, Et on aH beats it.

Br is a greedy driver pick. You'd easily lose to hS on Ds/Ds'.

But yeah, you totally could spam through a tournament with hS.0B/0G.Ds/At and aH.10.Et and either Sr or rP.

---

Give us Assault' re-release, Iron', and Charge'. Give a non-limited re-release of Cho-Z Achilles.
Legend Spriggan on tall attack drivers for Burst Limited is fun.
Against layer powercreep in Burst Limited.

I like the idea of limited.  I like the idea of 2 limited even more.  Most of all, I like the idea of having more beyblade tournaments in general.

Now, do we have enough events to support all these formats?  2 tournaments are currently listed in the world.........

If there were more events, then there could be support for more formats.  More formats can mean less game wide bans.  

So what do we really need?
(By the way, I consider myself lucky to be in Los Angeles where our organizers put out a tournament a month.  Correct me if I am wrong, but a tournament a month is pretty good)

But yeah, you totally could spam through a tournament with hS.0B/0G.Ds/At and aH.10.Et and either Sr or rP.

you just listed 11 parts

please describe your idea of optimum diversity in the meta

---

I like the idea of limited.  I like the idea of 2 limited even more.  Most of all, I like the idea of having more beyblade tournaments in general.

Now, do we have enough events to support all these formats?  2 tournaments are currently listed in the world.........

If there were more events, then there could be support for more formats.  More formats can mean less game wide bans.  

So what do we really need?
(By the way, I consider myself lucky to be in Los Angeles where our organizers put out a tournament a month.  Correct me if I am wrong, but a tournament a month is pretty good)

2 limited formats assumes a ton of actual interest in legacy burst

a few one offs tournaments of single and dual might be fun, but is there really sustained demand for this?

maybe there is. 

but i couldn’t see organizers running 3 formats in your average tournament day.  two formats in one day is long enough. so one of the 3 potential burst formats would end up being cut.

—-

the limited burst format that interests me would include single/dual/god/turbo only with all previous bans reenstated

But yeah, you totally could spam through a tournament with hS.0B/0G.Ds/At and aH.10.Et and either Sr or rP.

you just listed 11 parts

please describe your idea of optimum diversity in the meta

---

I like the idea of limited.  I like the idea of 2 limited even more.  Most of all, I like the idea of having more beyblade tournaments in general.

Now, do we have enough events to support all these formats?  2 tournaments are currently listed in the world.........

If there were more events, then there could be support for more formats.  More formats can mean less game wide bans.  

So what do we really need?
(By the way, I consider myself lucky to be in Los Angeles where our organizers put out a tournament a month.  Correct me if I am wrong, but a tournament a month is pretty good)

2 limited formats assumes a ton of actual interest in legacy burst

a few one offs tournaments of single and dual might be fun, but is there really sustained demand for this?

maybe there is. 

but i couldn’t see organizers running 3 formats in your average tournament day.  two formats in one day is long enough. so one of the 3 potential burst formats would end up being cut.

—-

the limited burst format that interests me would include single/dual/god/turbo only with all previous bans reenstated

All different formats do not need to be run on the same day.  If there were more events then there would be more opportunity to run different formats.

If demand is lacking the format will die and so be it.