World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations Plastic and HMS Customizations

[PLA] Banning certain Screw Zeus combinations

Dec. 02, 2015  2:56 AM
 
Banning Certain Screw Zeus AR Combinations

Back in 2014, I learned of th!nk's Dragon Breaker+Screw Zeus Combo he made. I learned how tight of a fit it was right away. You have to jam the Attack Ring deep into the spin gear with lots of force; which doesn't feel like something you should have to do while assembling. I made a thread called "SAR Compatibility Issues", and didn't get very understanding feedback. I definitely can attest to say that at the time I made many posts with stupid or false bias information. This time I made a video detailing (while not the greatest of quality,) why I believe certain part setups using Screw Zeus should be banned when playing with Plastics.

Spoiler (Click to View)

Now I don't to be the pooper here, I love how customizable Plastics are. I believe this part, Screw Zeus, is definitely unable to fit with a lot of SAR capable Attack Rings, and should be considered illegal for competitive play.
I have seen combos that change the way certain parts move before.
A great example would be the HMS combo Samurai Changer RC with CWD Free Crusher on BeyWiki.
Free Crusher is supposed to spin freely, and the RC is supposed to change modes.
So I'm not trying to say making Screw Zeus, which was originally free spinning, fixed in place is wrong.

The point I make is that multiple SAR-capable Attack Rings will not fit properly on Screw Zeus, and putting them on results in forcing it down onto the Spin Gear. This causes the main Attack Ring to be forced upward, bending it, as well as bending the sides of Screw Zeus farther over the Weight Disk.

Please leave any feedback or thoughts as to my proposal of banning these. I don't have all of the parts, and I'd appreciate any help I could get to learn more about what is and isn't compatible with Screw Zeus.
The Attack rings I know for sure that don't work would be Dragon Breaker, Hasbro Twin Horn, and Dark Wing.
Dec. 02, 2015  3:11 AM
 
Wait, you know how unfamiliar I am with Plastics : at which point in your video does it show a problematic matchup exactly ?

Also, are these sub-Attack Ring combinations overpowered at all ?
Dec. 02, 2015  3:13 AM
 
Yeah, I always thought that it wasn't a good fit and hate how it messes up the stickers on Screw Zeus, as well as bending parts and potentially damaging spin gears. I think the Gaia G AR fits a lot better and that is what I choose to use at this point in time. I guess the next step is to do some tests to see how much of a difference it makes. But yeah, I am all for this ban
Dec. 02, 2015  3:23 AM
 
As someone who isn't as familiar with plastics, is this combination constantly winning in the plastics events that are held?

If not, I just wonder would it really need a ban considering how few plastics events take place now; but that's just me.
Dec. 02, 2015  3:28 AM
 
(Dec. 02, 2015  3:11 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Wait, you know how unfamiliar I am with Plastics : at which point in your video does it show a problematic matchup exactly ?

Also, are these sub-Attack Ring combinations overpowered at all ?

It's not necessarily "overpowered", but it is a good combo. It is beatable, though.
As you can see, the main Attack ring, does not go past the SAR. Or rather I should say that the SAR doesn't go down far enough onto the main AR, due to Zeus' heads being in the way.
Dec. 02, 2015  3:33 AM
 
Oh, that is clearly not compatible then. Couldn't we simply add a rule that all combinations of parts must be entirely compatible ?
Dec. 02, 2015  3:37 AM
 
The problem is that technically all Sub-ARs are "compatible" with the regular ARs that support them. The problem ere is that clearly Screw Zeus and Dragon Breaker do not fit well together, despite them technically being "compatible" in name.
Dec. 02, 2015  3:55 AM
 
Don't have knowledge about Plastics, but is this similar to a situation in which one were to combine a Pegasus Energy Ring onto a L-Drago Fusion Wheel? Or are those parts considered incompatible while Screw and Zeus are?
Dec. 02, 2015  3:56 AM
 
Yes, that is why I think we should devise a list of Attack Rings that work with Screw Zeus.
I don't own all of the Attack rings though, so I'd need some assistance.
As far as I know, I think Screw Zeus is the only SAR like this.
(Dec. 02, 2015  3:55 AM)BUYORDIE! Wrote: Don't have knowledge about Plastics, but is this similar to a situation in which one were to combine a Pegasus Energy Ring onto a L-Drago Fusion Wheel? Or are those parts considered incompatible while Screw and Zeus are?

Mm, not really.
The parts, in name, (like Ginga said) should be compatible. They do not fit though, and people have been using this combo..
Dec. 02, 2015  4:29 AM
 
Well, is the problem of incompatibility only related to Screw Zeus ?
Dec. 02, 2015  4:44 AM
 
Aye ! I remember this.
I struggled to fit it together and then was scared if it would have broken
Dec. 02, 2015  5:34 AM
 
(Dec. 02, 2015  4:29 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Well, is the problem of incompatibility only related to Screw Zeus ?

Yes, I believe it's the only Sub Attack Ring that has any issues with being used on any other Attack Ring.
Dragon Breaker, or any other main Attack Ring, has no issues. It's all relating to this part.
Dec. 02, 2015  5:49 AM
 
OK, the issue is so isolated that any : "For Plastic Beyblades, if two parts are physically incompatible despite the compatibility with other similar parts, they may not be used together in a combination." ruling is just unnecessarily general ?
Dec. 02, 2015  5:56 AM
 
(Dec. 02, 2015  5:49 AM)Kai-V Wrote: OK, the issue is so isolated that any : "For Plastic Beyblades, if two parts are physically incompatible despite the compatibility with other similar parts, they may not be used together in a combination." ruling is just unnecessarily general ?

Yes, essentially.
After I get all of the information on what is and isn't compatible with Screw Zeus, could you add that to the rule list?
Just so people know not to use something like Dragon Breaker+Screw Zeus again.
Dec. 02, 2015  5:59 AM
 
Definitely, once I have all the information we can look into adding this to the rules.
Dec. 02, 2015  6:13 AM
 
(Dec. 02, 2015  5:59 AM)Kai-V Wrote: Definitely, once I have all the information we can look into adding this to the rules.

Fantastic. It's been an issue bothering me for a while. Kept thinking to myself "why is this even legal?", ha.

That out of the way;
@[Ultra], @[~Stoney~]
Can you guys assist with seeing which Sub Attack Rings are compatible?
Dec. 02, 2015  7:18 AM
 
Sure, I'll check my collection. But I don't be able to do it until Friday. I hope that's soon enough.
Dec. 07, 2015  2:09 PM
 
Alright, I checked the SAR capable AR´s. Here you go, @[Neo]:

Since Screw Zeus is very massive and uneven, you need a very small AR with 2 spikes (technically 4 would work, too, but there isn´t any small AR with 4 spikes among them) that fit into the spaces between the surface irregularities, such as Holy Despell itself.

As a result, Galzzly, Galman and all Gaia Dragoons aren´t compatible without using force and them being jammed very tight in the end. As for the complete Dark Series, not even brute force would be enough to attach the AR to the base with Screw Zeus between them because of the three wings, which don´t fit at all to SZ´s surface.

So, the small (two-winged) AR´s among the SAR capables, that is Galeon´s and Guardian Driger´s, do basically match with SZ and can be attached without using force. However, it only matches for one position of SZ, which means it can´t spin freely, but also isn´t really fixed.

As for Gabriel´s, Cyber Dragoon Battle Spec.´s and White Gabriel G´s (I don´t own that one, so I couldn´t test it, but I assume it´s the same as Gabriel´s) the problem isn´t really the AR, but the WD: You need to use a very small WD, because the SAR is placed beneath the WD and with that you have the same problem as with the AR of the other ones: The shape of the WD has to match with SZ´s non-flatness. I tried several WD´s and the only ones matching were Revolver Attack and Eight Heavy.

And the last one missing, Desert Sphinxer: It´s the only one that can be assembled with SZ without using any force and the SAR spinning freely in the end. However, since it´s attached to the lower part of its base, you have the "Trypio effect", which means it´ll outbreak itself at the slightest loss of balance and so is not very useful.
Dec. 07, 2015  2:59 PM
 
Alright, I'm getting Desert Sphinxer soon so I'll see how that fares.
But I do think that Dragon Saucer and Great Dragon fit? I've been able to get them on no trouble.
And White Gabriel G holds the SAR on the Attack Ring, and I'll attest that it doesn't fit.
So:

Cannot Fit:
Glazzly
Galman
Gaia Dragoon V
White Gabriel G

And the rest either fit, or we aren't definite about.
I suppose you're right about the Free Wing Base; it works with a Heavy WD. Not like anyone would use that combo anyways xD
Later I'll post pictures of Gaia 1&3 and how they fit.
Dec. 07, 2015  4:30 PM
 
Oh alright, then MO Gabriel G.
No need to post pics of Dragon Saucer and Great Dragon, because I partly agree, they do fit, somehow. But not without the slightest bit of force as it should be. You surely can combine them, but not without creating any tension inside, which increases the risk of breaking and should be avoided. Also the surface of those AR attached on SZ goes with a lot of friction, which isn't too good for the parts either.
Dec. 07, 2015  11:44 PM
 
Great Dragon is fragile as it is, so it's probably not best that it be put on, as a select few protrusions actually limit this from fitting. Saddening, as I wish this had some use. Guess I can finalize my draft on Gaia Dragoon, now.


But I disagree with you on Dragon Saucer. One goal I had with this proposal was to also include an alternative, so the combo isn't dead. And Dragon Saucer is nowhere nearly as hard of a fit; if you do it like this:
To be clear, this isn't fitting because of wear (obviously the picture they look worn to hell) but I do own a mint Dragon Saucer and Screw Zeus. Those fit just as fine. I think you're going a little too far on what doesn't fit, @[~Stoney~], as I wholehearted believe that Dragon Saucer + Zeus is a viable combination that fits fine. It doesn't feel cramped; it just keeps Screw Zeus in place properly.
Dec. 08, 2015  8:30 AM
 
About that Dragon Saucer: I'd appreciate, if you would read my last post properly. I didn't say is doesn't fit. I said, it doesn't fit as fine as it should, like AR and SAR that have been released together. Yes, it doesn't fit nearly as hard as the Dark Series or anything, but also far away from fitting "fine" like SZ and War Lion. If you assemble them, you clearly see that those two weren't originally meant to be used together, although it's possible. I guess there's just a difference in what the two of us consider fitting.
Dec. 08, 2015  2:49 PM
 
(Dec. 08, 2015  8:30 AM)~Stoney~ Wrote: About that Dragon Saucer: I'd appreciate, if you would read my last post properly. I didn't say is doesn't fit. I said, it doesn't fit as fine as it should, like AR and SAR that have been released together. Yes, it doesn't fit nearly as hard as the Dark Series or anything, but also far away from fitting "fine" like SZ and War Lion. If you assemble them, you clearly see that those two weren't originally meant to be used together, although it's possible. I guess there's just a difference in what the two of us consider fitting.

I've already made this clear before that Takara probably never intended for Screw Zeus to be with any other AR.
I think that Dragon Saucer; while you are correct in saying it isn't a perfect fit; is definitely one to stay unbanned. Those two keep the fixed Screw Zeus combination in-tact. I didn't have any issue assembling it, very minor force applied, just like a normal set up. I mean, when I put Triple Wing onto Wide Defense, it layers right on top of Wide Defense making it hard to turn. That doesn't mean it's not legal.
Dec. 08, 2015  6:33 PM
 
What about the inverse, standard Sub ARs on Holy Despell? They move up and down far more than they should in battle and open up the AR to potentially damaging hits but do not, in simply combining the parts, damage anything like Screw Zeus on most ARs.
Dec. 08, 2015  6:41 PM
 
(Dec. 08, 2015  6:33 PM)Dracomageat Wrote: What about the inverse, standard Sub ARs on Holy Despell? They move up and down far more than they should in battle and open up the AR to potentially damaging hits but do not, in simply combining the parts, damage anything like Screw Zeus on most ARs.

Like you said, this would be very fragile and thus a disadvantage and not very recommendable. But since this is the player´s own problem, I wouldn´t se any reason for banning.
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