I've shown that the flywheel effect is truly minimal in stamina testing.
Libra Re-instatement Discussion
![[Image: pakistandonationcopy.jpg]](https://a.imageshack.us/img841/8365/pakistandonationcopy.jpg)
Yes but the point is the libra combo will have more stamina than the virgo one which could dramatically change the results from what you think they should be.
Maybe I should clarify this; since there are 2 Virgo molds - 1 being the 3 minute mold (mine goes for 2.5-2.75 mins) and the other being 5 minutes - I'd assume that the Libra combo would come in between both, so an average, in terms of performance and not spin time.
(Jun. 28, 2010 1:57 PM)Dirge Wrote: yeah but you gotta rember L L dragos bey wiki page was writen when libra was still in the meta game.
Ive done abit of testing with WF and HF on MF L L drago D125WF/HF and against MF earthbull G145WB it stands a decent chance alot better then it did when i tried it against libra when i still had one where it was only get like 2/10 wins or something like that.
Im not sure that it is the right time to bring it back tbh,but i can understand why people would want it back but seriously comparing how our metagame when we had libra to japans when they were pretty much not bothing with libra because of the weight limit,there meta game was a hell of alot more intresting and alot of diffent combos compared to ours.
Also im pretty sure im not the only one who feels this way but since its been banned our meta game has changed alot for the better.Alot of new combos have came and attack combos have actully become viable compared to how it was basicly libra and stamina comboswhich is pretty boring to watch imo.
Also i think this needs to be said and im not trying to offend anyone or call anyone out but more members need to start coming up with there own combos and do testing on them because it isnt realy right to depend on other members to come up with all the competeive combos and test them only for us to just use them alot and then complain about the lack of combos.
Even then why use HF, F, or WF when RF can do what they do much, much better?
Because RF self KOs a lot. And I mean a lot. Personally, if F could knock out top tier defense Beys consistantly, I would much rather use it than RF. But alas, it doesn't.
Although I've heard that CS is a lot easier to control and as good as RF in certain combos.
Although I've heard that CS is a lot easier to control and as good as RF in certain combos.
It doesn't self-KO that often when you get the Sliding Shoot down. If you can't, why would you bother with an attack type that won't reach the Stamina type before losing too much of its power?
(Jun. 28, 2010 6:21 PM)Hyuuga Neji Wrote: It doesn't self-KO that often when you get the Sliding Shoot down. If you can't, why would you bother with an attack type that won't reach the Stamina type before losing too much of its power?
I've honestly yet to see anyone who's nailed sliding shoot under tournament conditions, consistently.
oh my god why are you talking about this
Because we sheeple are lost without your guidence!
EDIT: To prevent this from being spam... erm...
Cpt. Squirrel does brings up some good points, but the fact of the matter is, weight limits are probably not the way to go. Yes, it only takes a few seconds to check the legality of a blade, but when you have to do it multiple times for multiple people in a tournament, it adds up.
Also, I still strongly believe that Libra is still unbalanced. Even as a stamina wheel, even without a metal face, I think its defensive properties are still too strong, especially if you factor in the fact that its stamina is still amazing.
EDIT: To prevent this from being spam... erm...
Cpt. Squirrel does brings up some good points, but the fact of the matter is, weight limits are probably not the way to go. Yes, it only takes a few seconds to check the legality of a blade, but when you have to do it multiple times for multiple people in a tournament, it adds up.
Also, I still strongly believe that Libra is still unbalanced. Even as a stamina wheel, even without a metal face, I think its defensive properties are still too strong, especially if you factor in the fact that its stamina is still amazing.
(Jun. 28, 2010 6:50 PM)Daegor42 Wrote: Because we sheeple are lost without your guidence!
Seems that way. Seriously, was this not discussed enough before we banned it? What new info is there to be presented? Libra's sky-high Defense or Stamina aren't the issues, exclusive of each other; the combination of these two traits in one part are the issue.
*disappears back into the shadows*
Holy carp! Brad actually posted... I knew he had been watching over us all this time! 
But seriously. Libra still needs a ban. Just use a different part, it's not like it is the only good wheel in the game.
But seriously. Libra still needs a ban. Just use a different part, it's not like it is the only good wheel in the game.
![[Image: pokemongif.gif]](https://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d155/dorkfacepunk/MISC%20Stuff/pokemongif.gif)
Earth has good defence and stamina...
Earth has either great stamina and good defense or great defense and good stamina.
Libra has great defense and great stamina.
Libra has great defense and great stamina.
(Jun. 28, 2010 7:26 PM)Daegor42 Wrote: Earth has either great stamina and good defense or great defense and good stamina.
Libra has great defense and great stamina.
I just did some really quick testing.
Best of 3 rounds:
Earth (second mold) Bull DF145SD vs. Libra DF145SD (Earth Bull launched first and then alternating launches):
Libra wins
E.B. wins
(Draw)
E.B. wins
I purposely left in the draw as I found it interesting.
I wouldn't expect anyone else's results to be wildly different. I'd say roughly half and half, give or take 1 or 2 wins to either side.
Three things:
1) You need way more tests than that to prove anything.
2) If you are using an Earth for stamina use mold one since it's lighter and has more stamina potential.
3) This thread is doing nothing. No one agrees with you. Give it up. Libra is still too strong a wheel to be unbanned. Wait a year cause by then better blades may have come out which can match up to libra or even beat it.
1) You need way more tests than that to prove anything.
2) If you are using an Earth for stamina use mold one since it's lighter and has more stamina potential.
3) This thread is doing nothing. No one agrees with you. Give it up. Libra is still too strong a wheel to be unbanned. Wait a year cause by then better blades may have come out which can match up to libra or even beat it.
Like I said, it was just a quick session to create a rough idea of what would happen.
Also, someone said Earth has either great stamina and good defence or vice versa, depending on the mold. Since I've already done a quick test with Earth mold 1, I decided to see if what he said was true. According to his principles, Earth mold 1 would have great defence and great stamina.
Also, someone said Earth has either great stamina and good defence or vice versa, depending on the mold. Since I've already done a quick test with Earth mold 1, I decided to see if what he said was true. According to his principles, Earth mold 1 would have great defence and great stamina.
I don't have time to read over everything in this thread right now, but I just want to point something out; is there really a place in the game for a Wheel that can weigh up to 4-5 grams more than any other Wheel ever released? It was clearly a mistake to release it in the first place.
Yes, placing a weight restriction might help rectify this, but if in this case you were using a Libra-based custom against anything that isn't using a Metal Face, think of how much more it will still weigh. Libra CH120RF comes to mind, and don't forget how high it's win percentage was against Attack and Stamina customs. Against Defense customs it was not so good in comparison (60%), but the tests that were conducted were against MF Libra C145WB; I'm sure against something like MF Earth Bull C145WB it's win percentage would increase.
Yes, placing a weight restriction might help rectify this, but if in this case you were using a Libra-based custom against anything that isn't using a Metal Face, think of how much more it will still weigh. Libra CH120RF comes to mind, and don't forget how high it's win percentage was against Attack and Stamina customs. Against Defense customs it was not so good in comparison (60%), but the tests that were conducted were against MF Libra C145WB; I'm sure against something like MF Earth Bull C145WB it's win percentage would increase.
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Slightly off-topic, but seeing as Libra is a balance wheel couldn't it put SF to use?
(Jun. 29, 2010 12:48 AM)Kei Wrote: Yes, placing a weight restriction might help rectify this, but if in this case you were using a Libra-based custom against anything that isn't using a Metal Face, think of how much more it will still weigh. Libra CH120RF comes to mind, and don't forget how high it's win percentage was against Attack and Stamina customs. Against Defense customs it was not so good in comparison (60%), but the tests that were conducted were against MF Libra C145WB; I'm sure against something like MF Earth Bull C145WB it's win percentage would increase.
With regards to you saying how much more a Libra based custom would weigh than anything without a metal face: a lot of these 'naked' customs are able to defeat the Libra wheel, and, with the use of metal faces, the number of combinations that can beat it only increase.
In reference to the Libra CH120RF - without the metal face - you can't forget the fact that it's not as heavy as before. If it's not as heavy, the overall force that is applied isn't as strong as with a metal face. This deficit in overall force would not outweigh the increase in speed. Maybe testing it against MF Earth Bull GB145WB would give clearer answers, but I'd assume that it's win rate would be just a little less than 60%.
Above point is moot as, with all the talk about metal faces, I 'thought' that there was an MF on this balance combo.[/size][size=large]
Dude seriously give up no on agrees with you - at all. Also since it got 60% when faced against a libra defence combo when faced against MF Earth Bull GB145WB the win percentage will get higher not smaller because it is heavier overall and a better defence wheel! Also I really doubt it matters about the loss in weight from the metal face since it will gain more speed which is more important. What do you mean by "naked combo"?
(Jun. 29, 2010 1:32 AM)Cpt. Squirrel Wrote: In reference to the Libra CH120RF - without the metal face - you can't forget the fact that it's not as heavy as before. If it's not as heavy, the overall force that is applied isn't as strong as with a metal face. This deficit in overall force would not outweigh the increase in speed. Maybe testing it against MF Earth Bull GB145WB would give clearer answers, but I'd assume that it's win rate would be just a little less than 60%.
Beywiki-The Trade-offs of High Spin Velocity Wrote:When the weight is focused around the outside, the blade is harder to stop. This means that it is harder to interrupt the spin, increasing defense. It also means that Attack-types with outwardly-focused weight can smash their opponents harder.With a Metal Face, the outwardly focused weight will be decreased.
Nobody has ever suggested using MF Libra CH120RF ... it has always been Libra CH120RF. It wouldn't make sense to use MF on it, as megablader2 and Climax have pointed out. I'm trying to say that should we instate a weight limit instead of outright banning the Wheel, this incredibly powerful Balance custom will be legal once again, and it will be even more effective.
Sweet my Libra may see some tourney use yet then. I've always thought the ruling is kinda silly considering anyone with a quetz can normally defeat a libra combo, hell even MF Pegasus CH145RF can.
(Jun. 29, 2010 3:02 AM)megablader2 Wrote: Sweet my Libra may see some tourney use yet then. I've always thought the ruling is kinda silly considering anyone with a quetz can normally defeat a libra combo, hell even MF Pegasus CH145RF can.No, Kei said 'should we instate a weight limit instead of outright banning the Wheel' not 'we should instate a weight limit instead of outright banning the Wheel' :
(Jun. 29, 2010 2:58 AM)Kei Wrote: I'm trying to say that should we instate a weight limit instead of outright banning the Wheel, this incredibly powerful Balance custom will be legal once again, and it will be even more effective.
I suppose this will be easier to understand :\:
(Jun. 29, 2010 2:58 AM)Kei Wrote: I'm trying to say that if we instate a weight limit instead of outright banning the Wheel, this incredibly powerful Balance custom will be legal once again, and it will be even more effective.