I think that, despite Libra having the weight distributed on the outside of its wheel, placing a limit on beyblades wouldn't make any Libra based combination as devastating to the game as before.

Forgive the poor analogy but think of two ice skaters spinning still in a circle. Let's assume that person A weighs 106kg and person B weighs 92kg (roughly in proportion to the heaviest Libra combo and the Earth combos) . Both are spinning at the same speed, and are the same height, and each person is holding a weight of 5kgs in each hand. Although both have the same weight distribution, because person B is lighter than A, it'd be relatively easier to knock B off balance and move around.

In relation to beyblades, the limited Libra would become more vulnerable to attack types. A weight limit would also reduce any game breaking qualities that a balance based Libra combo would have as it'd be like a jeep hitting a car, rather than a tank hitting a car (once again, excuse the analogy).

I understand and appreciate what Climax has quoted from the 'Trade-offs...' article, but I believe that that does not take into account knock outs, which the limited Libra would be much more susceptible too. I also believe that it doesn't have much relevance to what I'm saying because, regardless of how much weight is distributed on the outside, a defence combo is nearly always going to win against a attack combo in terms of just spinning with no knock outs. Let's say that there was in fact a weight limit of 47.5g introduced, would one go for MF Earth Bull GB145/C145 WB - a great defence combination - or for the Libra DF145SD - a good stamina combination whose defence capabilities/weight have been reduced in favour of spin time. Granted that was not the best example of increasing strategy, but it certainly does open doors.

I have just done some really quick testing with regards to Libra's stamina capabilities and whether or not the effect of the 'fly wheel' overpowers top tier stamina combinations.

Best out of 3.

Libra DF145SD - Flame Bull DF145SD:
1 - 2

Libra DF145SD - Virgo DF145SD (3 minute mold):
2 - 0

Libra DF145SD - Earth Bull DF145SD (1st mold):
0 - 2

I think that Libra isn't game breaking for stamina combinations.

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the reason had nothing to do with stamina combos tho...

it was to open doors for attack combos to actully be use competively since the game was pretty much revolving around beating libra.So tournements were basicly libra and stamina fest and tbh blading with deffence and stamina combos doesnt require skill unlike attack combos.

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Do attack combinations have as much of a chance of winning against stamina customizations if you use Libra ...

Is this a rhetorical question or are you genuinely interested?

To be honest, I'd say it's the same chance as winning against any other stamina combo because I've found that it's not the best - it beat my Virgo wheel that is classed as the 3 minute mold, but its solo spin time is usually 2mins30-45secs.

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No it wouldn't People would probably rather use Libra than Earth for defence even if there was a weight limit cause it's better. And as Kai V says it is much harder to knock out than other wheels used for stamina since it's so much heavier.

Most people play stamina vs. stamina and defence vs. attack though. The Libra stamina combo was just an example of the new opportunities if it was reintroduced.



Edit: I like how when I post and then post immediately again my comments are integrated into 1 response. That's a pretty nifty feature. I know it's off topic, but I assume this doesn't work if someone posts in between my comments...

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He's not asking a question. Libra is heavier so if used in a stamina combo it will be harder to defeat than other top tier stamina wheels due to it's weight. This is what he was saying when she said that. This is a fact. Saying how it does against other stamina combos will tell you nothing about how it will do against attack when it is used in a stamina combo. Also can we stop this cause this is meaningless considering it's banned and is just spamming.

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MF Earth Bull GB145WD - 46.3g
MF EarthBull GB145WB - 46.1g
*Libra DF145SD / WD - 46g / 46.1g
*Libra C145WD / WB / SD - 47.6g / 47.3g / 47.4g
MF Virgo GB145WD - 47.5g (I'm not sure if there are any weight differences in the Virgo molds, but I'd assume there would be one heavier - mine is the 3 minute mold)

* Obviously the Libra combinations have no metal face.

Does Virgo GB145WD with a Metal Face completely destroy the competition and deserves to be banned due to a weight limit ?

Yes. I'm sure that Dirge took at least a little time to read your post.
I've got nothing against you Cpt. and I certainly don't have anything against Libra.
However, these points that you're trying to make, really aren't getting you anywhere.
If you own a Libra wheel, that awesome. It's a benchmark utility for testing, and also
a killer wheel when used outside of WBO organized play, but that's it.

Trying to re-introduce the Libra wheel to WBO competitive play, is like trying to argue
that the Pegasus Thunder Whip stadium should be tested over and over again,
until it is found to be an acceptable stage for WBO tournament play. It won't happen!
Give the system more time to grow. Maybe somewhere down the road things will
change. You need to stop pulling these facts and arguments out of the air, and see
what is really going on here. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you're at fault
for wanting to change something. I just think, that this is not the right time to make
modifications to the WBO's rule sets, to justify the use of a single part.

A lot of people in this community, (the staff included) dedicate a fair bit of their time
to testing, and evaluating, how each and every individual part effects competitive play.
To object so continuously to the ban on Libra, is almost like saying that WBO knows
nothing about the game's current metagame. They do know how this game works
and I'm sure that if there was ever a good time for it, they'd bring Libra back.

I think that most people here are not reading what I'm saying completely/appreciate what I'm saying, and that people are focussing too much on the specific Libra based examples I have given but not the whole picture.

From what I have gathered from most responses, it seems as if people think I am advocating just a pure reintroduction of the Libra wheel; that is not the case. What I favour is bringing Libra back, but with restrictions placed on it. I have shown that it's not the best in a stamina combination, so the fly wheel effect argument does not fully hold weight here. If a weight limit were to be introduced, something like the Libra DF145SD combination would not be gamebreaking in terms of both being played against an attack blade and a stamina blade.

With reference to the specific example of Libra DF145SD perhaps having an increased chance of winning against an attack bey, I wouldn't really say that it has more of a chance than an Earth Bull combination. It'd obviously be a meeting of attack vs. defence and attack vs. stamina with limited defensive capabilities. In a battle with no knockouts, the defence and stamina blades would both obviously win. In a battle with knockouts, it'd be more complex. With the Earth Bull being more suited to defence with its track and bottom, I'd say it'd have a better chance of winning than the stamina bey. This is obviously a calculated risk, and percentages and win rates are what the metagame is all about, and is up to the player to decide what they want to use - this is a benefit of what I'm endorsing here: it increases strategy and makes the player's decisions and thought processes all the more important.

In response to megablader2, I realise that the increased weight of Libra DF145SD would be harder to defeat than other stamina combinations, but it is up to the player to decide if they want to risk using this combination, despite being the same weight as an Earth Bull combination and with less defensive capabilities. This is what I am talking about: increased strategy and calculation. Once again, there is too much focus on just this one specific combination and not enough on the bigger picture of opening up strategy.

I know that before the ban the game was all about beating a Libra wheel, but, with this introduced weight limit, the game would not become like that again. I stress further, it will open up to more variety and strategy.

Does Virgo GB145WD with a Metal Face completely destroy the competition and deserves to be banned due to a weight limit ?

No, but then again I did say that the weight limit could be the weight of whatever the heaviest non gamebreaking blade is.

____________________________________________

Though this hasn't come up yet, I can see how some may come to think that Libra C145WB may become game breaking and so the issue of weight distribution becomes important again. Let's use Climax's principle of seeing how much weight is distributed on the edge of the wheel. However, I must stress that these figures are not exact values of how much is on the outside, but a rough indication for us to use for this argument.

Climax:

[43(Libra’s weight focused on the outside)-4.5(Metal Face)=38.5g]

If this is the case, why not just dismiss the metal face and retain the original 43g on the outside? Granted, there isn't 43g on the outside, more like 25-30g, but the principle of my argument here remains the same. Why put a metal face on Libra C145/GB145 WB? Since this reduces the overall amount of weight on the outside but it increases the overall weight of the combo, it just goes to show that weight distribution and the fly wheel effect are of much lower importance than most state. Would you rather want Libra C145/GB145 WB or MF Libra C145/GB145 WB? Most would choose the combo with a metal face, thus showing that it is weight that is the most important part here. Since I advocate a weight limit, this combination would not be game breaking.
____________________________________________

Juno, I did not pull any facts out of the air. I have simply used my observations to create what I think is a really valid argument for the reintroduction of Libra but with constraints.
____________________________________________

I realise that people may think I am spamming with my repetition of points, but that is only because I truly don't think they understand my argument. Maybe this post will help clarify my point(s).

____________________________________________

To any moderators, I apologise if this is a lot to read, but I genuinely do think that my argument really should be taken into consideration.

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Though this hasn't come up yet, I can see how some may come to think that Libra C145WB may become game breaking and so the issue of weight distribution becomes important again. Let's use Climax's principle of seeing how much weight is distributed on the edge of the wheel. However, I must stress that these figures are not exact values of how much is on the outside, but a rough indication for us to use for this argument.

Climax:

[43(Libra’s weight focused on the outside)-4.5(Metal Face)=38.5g]

If this is the case, why not just dismiss the metal face and retain the original 43g on the outside? Granted, there isn't 43g on the outside, more like 25-30g, but the principle of my argument here remains the same. Why put a metal face on Libra C145/GB145 WB? Since this reduces the overall amount of weight on the outside but it increases the overall weight of the combo, it just goes to show that weight distribution and the fly wheel effect are of much lower importance than most state. Would you rather want Libra C145/GB145 WB or MF Libra C145/GB145 WB? Most would choose the combo with a metal face, thus showing that it is weight that is the most important part here. Since I advocate a weight limit, this combination would not be game breaking.

Ah, I got the weights wrong in the equation, sorry about that.

I never said the combo will be game breaking. I was just trying to show how much flywheel effect Libra has compared to Earth Bull.
Adding a Metal Face is definitely good for Defense combos. However, Libra's flywheel effect is also very important.
Another thing worth mentioning is that the weight of Libra GB145WB (even with out a Metal Face) is heavier than MF Earth Bull GB145WB (without breaking your weight limit).
Libra GB145WB: 1.1g (Normal Face)+40.5g (Libra)+4.5 (GB145)+0.6 (WB)=46.7g
MF Earth Bull GB145WB: 4.5g (Metal Face)+3.3 (Bull)+ 32.9 (Earth)+4.5 (GB145)+0.6 (WB)=45.8g

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Cpt. Squirrel have you ever owned a libra?
even uncustomized its still quite overpowered and can destroyed most attack combos.Also adding regulations just makes it harder for people running tournements to cheack that its within regulations.

Also with libra being banned it alowed parts like HF,F and WF become some what useful in attack combos since the only bottom they could actully stand a chance agaisnt libra was RF and RF almost always self kos because of the stadium ridge so it wasnt realy used in most tournements.

Think of it like this you ban one part to be able to get quite abit of other parts to be useable in competive play its a good trade off imo.And also now theres more combos being used in competive play with parts that were over looked because they couldnt stand up to libra.

One of the main points in its banning also was to open up new customizations and i think it worked quite well.
Also in the future there might be parts realsed that could balance things out and libra might become un baned again.

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Cpt. Squirrel have you ever owned a libra?

He has a Libra(s). Why would he be selling one if he doesn't have one himself?
Anyway, I do agree with your points.

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⊿

ah lol didnt know he was selling one,was just checkin since when they did the votes alot of people were saying dont ban it and they had never used one before

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Imagine how much of a pain it would be to run tournaments if you had to weight individual blades to make sure they were legal... I think Libra is fine for playing around but it can become quite overpowered and shouldn't be allowed for tournament play. The people running the WBO are constantly testing this kind of stuff and maybe in the future if the game evolves we can let Libra come back because it will be okay by those standards. Right now though we need to keep it out of tournament play, there are a lot of other great stamina combos to try and use. I think this is just causing a ridiculous amount of arguing, I'm not saying anyones wrong here and I applaud Cpt. Squirell for bringing a well thought out argument to the table but I don't think now is a suitable time to be talking about bringing Libra back.

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Though this hasn't come up yet, I can see how some may come to think that Libra C145WB may become game breaking and so the issue of weight distribution becomes important again. Let's use Climax's principle of seeing how much weight is distributed on the edge of the wheel. However, I must stress that these figures are not exact values of how much is on the outside, but a rough indication for us to use for this argument.

Climax:

[43(Libra’s weight focused on the outside)-4.5(Metal Face)=38.5g]

If this is the case, why not just dismiss the metal face and retain the original 43g on the outside? Granted, there isn't 43g on the outside, more like 25-30g, but the principle of my argument here remains the same. Why put a metal face on Libra C145/GB145 WB? Since this reduces the overall amount of weight on the outside but it increases the overall weight of the combo, it just goes to show that weight distribution and the fly wheel effect are of much lower importance than most state. Would you rather want Libra C145/GB145 WB or MF Libra C145/GB145 WB? Most would choose the combo with a metal face, thus showing that it is weight that is the most important part here. Since I advocate a weight limit, this combination would not be game breaking.

Ah, I got the weights wrong in the equation, sorry about that.

I never said the combo will be game breaking. I was just trying to show how much flywheel effect Libra has compared to Earth Bull.
Adding a Metal Face is definitely good for Defense combos. However, Libra's flywheel effect is also very important.
Another thing worth mentioning is that the weight of Libra GB145WB (even with out a Metal Face) is heavier than MF Earth Bull GB145WB (without breaking your weight limit).
Libra GB145WB: 1.1g (Normal Face)+40.5g (Libra)+4.5 (GB145)+0.6 (WB)=46.7g
MF Earth Bull GB145WB: 4.5g (Metal Face)+3.3 (Bull)+ 32.9 (Earth)+4.5 (GB145)+0.6 (WB)=45.8g

Since I've already shown the the flywheel effect really is negligible for Libra as a stamina wheel, as well as through the logic used by players when they decide to add a metal face which reduces the flywheel effect even further, I don't see why it is still part of the equation here.

______________________________________

Dirge, I do own a Libra. Although the banning of Libra may have allowed HF, F and WF to become more useful, and I do understand your point about RF being the only thing to break down Libra, all the tournament videos I have seen, and all the threads I have read, show people using/advising people to use RF. If Libra really was that overpowered, despite the absence of Libra now, why is RF still the only bottom used in the attack section for the 'Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos' thread?

I realise that there are still parts to be released, but that doesn't mean Libra shouldn't be unbanned with restraints now...

______________________________________

MaxL, I've shown that Libra DF145SD isn't that great a stamina wheel. I've also shown that it's not the fly wheel effect that causes people to choose Libra, but it's just the sheer weight of it...

I truly don't think that it'd be hard to regulate Libra combos in tournaments, and I don't see why it'd be so hard? If there's an average weight guide that shows certain combinations to be overweight, surely it'd be just a procedure of literally taking a few seconds to look determine the parts before each match.

Alas, I do not have tournament experience so that is pure speculation on my part, but I wouldn't see it as being too hard. I can see Kai-V's point about trying to explain why someone's beyblade can't be used, but then wouldn't the reintroduction be followed by rules in the handbook, rules in the tournament and rules in the competitive combos thread?

I also don't think that there's been any arguing within this post. Well, I hope I don't come across as argumentative, but I have noticed some condescension and blatant flippant dismissal of my argument, i.e. megablader2 and and Mc Frown. I do thank Heart for allowing me to continue and seeing what I have to say to be worthy of discussion.
______________________________________

Mc Frown: I don't see why you have to denigrate my argument as 'stupid' and I really do not appreciate your blatant dismissal of what I have to say. If the metagame truly got better, why are there no HF, F and WF combinations in the competitive combos thread? All I see is the banning of one part that doesn't seem to have had too great an effect on competitive attack blades. With no more Libra, it now just seems like it's just all against the Earth wheel - granted it is not as devastating as Libra, but there is still no competitive use for HF, F and WF REGARDLESS of the fact that Libra's been banned.

______________________________________

To any moderators, if you want me to stop repeating my argument, I will because it certainly does seem like I'm flogging a dead horse here, what with repetitive responses from users other than the moderators, but I would appreciate it if you were to at least reconsider the banning of Libra, since I feel that I have shown many times why it should be reintroduced and, as well as having countered everyone's points as to how it's overpowered, i.e. the flywheel effect and the weight, and any 'benefits' of bringing about the ban of Libra.

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Just at your point saying that why is there no HF,WF combos in the competive combo theard,its that no one has been testing combos using these parts also the theard hasnt been update much recently.

Also people just asume that RF is the best attack bottom so people dont bother with WF and HF or few people do.So i think the fault for no combos using WF and HF is more on the members then anything eles because now they are quite useable and i still cannot understand why people dont use these parts now that they can actully be used competively esspically considering they are a hell of alot more dependable then RF.

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There has been testing done on HF, F and WF bottoms. It may not have been as extensive as RF, but it certainly was enough for the beywiki, e.g. HF in the Lightning LDrago 100HF is described as being 'only adequate'.

CS looks great though. This would perhaps provide a better alternative to RF and still be able to beat a Libra combination (speculation as I just saw drigergt's MF Galaxy Pegasis CH120CS vs MF Libra GB145WB, where Pegasis lost - I suspect it'd be better with Lightning or Quetz).

There are also combinations which look like they can toss Libra around like a rag doll, such as MF Pegasis CH120RF.

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yeah but you gotta rember L L dragos bey wiki page was writen when libra was still in the meta game.
Ive done abit of testing with WF and HF on MF L L drago D125WF/HF and against MF earthbull G145WB it stands a decent chance alot better then it did when i tried it against libra when i still had one where it was only get like 2/10 wins or something like that.

Im not sure that it is the right time to bring it back tbh,but i can understand why people would want it back but seriously comparing how our metagame when we had libra to japans when they were pretty much not bothing with libra because of the weight limit,there meta game was a hell of alot more intresting and alot of diffent combos compared to ours.

Also im pretty sure im not the only one who feels this way but since its been banned our meta game has changed alot for the better.Alot of new combos have came and attack combos have actully become viable compared to how it was basicly libra and stamina combos which is pretty boring to watch imo.

Also i think this needs to be said and im not trying to offend anyone or call anyone out but more members need to start coming up with there own combos and do testing on them because it isnt realy right to depend on other members to come up with all the competeive combos and test them only for us to just use them alot and then complain about the lack of combos.

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With a weight limit, HF, WF and F would still be given their opportunity to prove how useful they really are. When you did your testing, was it against something like MF Libra C145/GB145 WB? With restrictions, there'd still be all the combinations, and they should be just as useful. With weight restrictions, anything that has happened since the ban will still exist.

Also, aren't Japan using a weight limit of 47g?

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im not sure what they weight limit is tbh,but i rember reading that over there they dont bother with libra because of the limit.

Its more like the restictions would be diffcult to manage in comps tho like checking every bey with the libra wheel before matchs would be realy time cosuming since if you checked before the comp started and not during the person could easily change the parts and some people wont even notice.

Also the trade off for 1 wheel making 3 bottoms viable is quite fair imo.But hey after all the testing on CS and R2F are done it could alow libra to come back if the game shifts so heavly to attack combos and only comps are being won with them.

And what i tested agaisnt was MF libraC145WB

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MF Libra C145WB was a tank.

Restrictions wouldn't really be that hard, since before each match the organiser would take a quick visual glance at it and know if the components result in whether or not the blade is overweight. That surely wouldn't take as long as people are saying.

Once again, I'm not an organiser so cannot definitively say that.

I feel like you don't understand what I'm saying. I am not in favour of just purely brining Libra back; I am in favour of it being brought back with restrictions. This would mean that the 3 bottoms are still viable, and, no, Libra would not become gamebreaking since the flywheel effect is overstated and overemphasised.

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I get what you mean but i dissagree with it,since even uncustomized libra is still a tank and still makes HF,WF and F not viable against it due to its weight and shape and makes RF the only bottom that can stand up to it with attack combos,and then RF is unrealiable there for making attack types not viable.If there was an updated attack stadium with a ridge that functioned propley for RF this wouldnt be a problem but they havent so it is the main problem,it gives the type that already has a huge dissadvantage even more of a dissadvantage to the point where its not useable in competeive play

tbh i thought the same thing when they did the vote at the start of it but after reading all the soild reasons to ban it i agreed with banning it.
im not sure if you on here when all the disscussion was taking place tho...?

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I just weighed MF Libra GB145WD and it was 52.6g. Taking the meal face off, it'd weigh ~47.5g (average weight). This is as much as MF Virgo GB145WD which, to my knowledge, is the next heaviest combination, yet still provides enough scope to be beaten by attack based beyblades. Are HF, WF and F viable against that combination? Yes, so why wouldn't it be viable here?

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you need to take shape into consideration aswell.

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I just weighed MF Libra GB145WD and it was 52.6g. Taking the meal face off, it'd weigh ~47.5g (average weight). This is as much as MF Virgo GB145WD which, to my knowledge, is the next heaviest combination, yet still provides enough scope to be beaten by attack based beyblades. Are HF, WF and F viable against that combination? Yes, so why wouldn't it be viable here?

What I get from this post is that you think because attack customizations are fine against Virgo GB145WD with a Metal Face, they should necessarily be viable with Libra GB145WD as well ?

I just weighed MF Libra GB145WD and it was 52.6g. Taking the meal face off, it'd weigh ~47.5g (average weight). This is as much as MF Virgo GB145WD which, to my knowledge, is the next heaviest combination, yet still provides enough scope to be beaten by attack based beyblades. Are HF, WF and F viable against that combination? Yes, so why wouldn't it be viable here?

What I get from this post is that you think because attack customizations are fine against Virgo GB145WD with a Metal Face, they should necessarily be viable with Libra GB145WD as well ?

I can see why you said that due to my phrasing of what I said. Given that the flywheel effect is really overemphasised and doesn't play as much an important role as people suggest, it is overall weight which should be the deciding factor here. Since both are equal, I'd assume that the final results would be somewhat similar. Maybe what happens during the actual testing is different, but I'd expect the final results to be similar. However, like the person before said, shape and recoil is to be considered. This obviously does not include the flywheel effect which ultimately results in wheels heavier on the outside to spin for longer as it's harder to disturb its spin; when has an attack bey ever outspun a defence bey, bar the occasional 'miracle'? Like I said, this effect really is minimal.

If testing were to be done between MF Virgo GB145WD and Libra GB145WD against a smash attack combination, it'd be hard to pick out a clear victor between the two.

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The libra combo will have much more stamina than the virgo one since in a defence combo I made with virgo it lost a lot of it's stamina when used in a heavy combo. This won't happen to libra because of the flywheel effect. If a combo has less stamina then obviously it is easier to knock out. You can't really say the two combos are equal cause they're not. Also what does whether an attack combo will out spin a defence one anyway? That's not what they do.

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