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[LTD] MF Jade Horogium 85RSF

Sep. 08, 2015  2:50 AM
 
Testing Jade as a LTDC!

Tests against MF-H Lightning L-Drago CH120RF
Spoiler (Click to View)

Tests against MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RB
Spoiler (Click to View)

Tests against MF-H Pegasis 85RF
Spoiler (Click to View)

Tests against Burn Cancer W145WD
Spoiler (Click to View)
Sep. 08, 2015  2:57 AM
 
These results seem pretty good, I just wish that you would have done more than 10 test for the first test in order to get a more clear picture it's comparison to Bakushin against Lightning RF. Also do you think that you could test against Right-Spin attack? Something like Pegasus or Screw.
Sep. 08, 2015  3:01 AM
 
It's quite awkward that you did 20 tests for the benchmark and only 10 for the Jade tests. I do realize it might've been quite one sided, but still that doesn't seem right to me. Also it would be very nice if you could test against right spin attack combos. Personally I prefer Vulcan or Screw LTAC but it's really up to you.
Sep. 08, 2015  3:02 AM
 
Wow, pretty insane results you got here! Huge thanks for these Cake! Would you mind testing against Dark Knight Girago LTAC, though? With Omega now banned, I do believe this is on par with Lightning, if not better because of more of a chance at out-spinning defense.

Even if the results are one-sided, when it's attack vs. defense, you should still be doing the 20+ though.
Sep. 08, 2015  3:07 AM
 
(Sep. 08, 2015  2:57 AM)Stormscorpio1 Wrote: These results seem pretty good, I just wish that you would have done more than 10 test for the first test in order to get a more clear picture it's comparison to Bakushin against Lightning RF. Also do you think that you could test against Right-Spin attack? Something like Pegasus or Screw.

I can definitely do some tests against Pegasus. I don't think Screw will do too well since Jade is on such a low setup (same goes for Vulcan). I'll do those tests tomorrow morning, though.

I could have gone and done a full 20 rounds on that benchmark, but honestly the percentages would not be that different from the 10 rounds. Lightning simply couldn't push Bakushin very far at all, and the only KO came from me launching Bakushin into a Tornado Stall. I could do another 10 rounds tomorrow, but I strongly doubt there will be anything new and interesting to show from them.

UPDATE:
(Sep. 08, 2015  3:02 AM)Mitsu Wrote: Wow, pretty insane results you got here! Huge thanks for these Cake! Would you mind testing against Dark Knight Girago LTAC, though? With Omega now banned, I do believe this is on par with Lightning, if not better because of more of a chance at out-spinning defense.
I will go ahead and test against DK Girago as well, then. I personally find that it does very poorly against similar or lower-height opponents, but its ability to OS things nicely may come in handy.

(Sep. 08, 2015  3:01 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Also it would be very nice if you could test against right spin attack combos. Personally I prefer Vulcan or Screw LTAC but it's really up to you.
As I wrote above, Vulcan and Screw do poorly against lower-height opponents, from my experience. I suppose I could do Screw since both you and Stormscorpio asked for it.

(Sep. 08, 2015  3:01 AM)Thunder Dome Wrote: It's quite awkward that you did 20 tests for the benchmark and only 10 for the Jade tests. I do realize it might've been quite one sided, but still that doesn't seem right to me.
(Sep. 08, 2015  3:02 AM)Mitsu Wrote: Even if the results are one-sided, when it's attack vs. defense, you should still be doing the 20+ though.
All right, all right, haha. I was a little rushed (quiet hours will be starting shortly in my dorm, and I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of some noisy tests then) and felt that the 10 rounds would be enough given how ineffective Lightning seemed, as opposed to the tests with Lightning LTAC vs Bakushin, where it was a little less clear who would win any given round (thus the 20 rounds). I can do 10 more rounds for each set of tests tomorrow.
Sep. 08, 2015  4:13 AM
 
Cool. Thanks for the tests. I am getting my first 4d jade in the mail this week! Can't wait now!
Sep. 08, 2015  2:34 PM
 
Pegasis tests!

Using all the same parts as before, but with Pegasis instead of Lightning L-Drago. Pegasis is on 85 even though Pegasis LTAC isn't really a thing, because Pegasis does best against stuff its own height (so naturally 85 would be best against LTDC).

MF Bakushin Leone 85RSF vs MF-H Pegasis 85RF
Pegasis wins: 15 (14 KO, 1 OS)
Bakushin wins: 5 (1 KO, 3 OS, 1 because Pegasis ran out of the stadium)
Bakushin %: 25%
Detailed results:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Ouch. Poor Bakushin. (actually, poor Pegasis, the nice paint is all scraped up Unhappy ) This was a much more energetic battle than the left-spin ones (and, mercifully, faster). Pegasus wasn't having too much difficulty knocking Bakushin out, though it was suffering from significant recoil in the process. Let's see how it handles Jade.

MF Jade Horogium 85RSF vs MF-H Pegasis 85RF
Pegasis wins: 6 (6 KO)
Jade wins: 14 (2 KO, 12 OS)
Jade %: 70%
Detailed results:
Spoiler (Click to View)
Jade did a whole lot better than Bakushin, clearly. It's still possible to knock it out with Pegasis, but the window is very short to get the KO. With Bakushin, Pegasus could KO even late into the battle, but with Jade, it was over if Jade could make it through the first few seconds.

I will get to the other tests a little later in the day, as once again I'm running a little short on time.

EDIT: I will be adding these to the OP, as well.
EDIT2: Noticed that the Lightning RB tests did not indicate that I was using a MF-H on Lightning, so I fixed it.
Sep. 08, 2015  6:13 PM
 
Those Jade results against Pegasus look very promising, I only wish that I had a Jade now.
Sep. 08, 2015  7:01 PM
 
I feel like Pegasis would show better results on CH120 or W145. Pegasis has always been better on taller tracks, for me personally.

Nice results though! I don't own a Jade from what I remember so I can't help out but I'm sure Jade will be helpful with Libra gone. I must admit I'm scared that attack will completely wreck the metagame now though.
Sep. 08, 2015  7:40 PM
 
still remain Earth for defense. I didn't see better option then Jade... may be my Sol Aquario will does better with the new ban list. (perfectly designed to beat Libra 230D, but still good against other customization).

I,m worried too about defense custom...
Sep. 08, 2015  9:51 PM
 
Nice tests! Sadly, I've found that Bakushin is pretty weak to Pegasis as well, even with my soft RSF. Have you tried Jade vs. MHSC/B:D yet? One of Bakushin's main appeal to me is how its shape can destabilize or even KO those combos if needed, and while Jade outweighs most everything in Limited now I'm not sure how successful it would be in those matchups.

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Eonis instead of Horogium (if you have it of course)? It's a pretty flat Clear Wheel and has better balance than Horogium (though it's not as smooth), so it could be looked at as an alternative option (the Hasbro release also has a nice burgundy color). A comparison between RSF and RB would be nice too.

Stamina Mode is the one where the Metal Balls are not held in place, correct? I was under the impression that that mode was the "Attack Mode" due to the slight (probably negligible) increase in OWD and how it now has 8 main contact points on its underside rather than 4. Granted not much will be hitting the underside if Jade is on 85RSF, but still, wouldn't Defense Mode be better for Defense? From my observations Stamina Mode also spins for noticeably longer though, so if that's what you were going for that's cool too.

@[loyd87], according to th!nk Sol was a decent choice for LTDC, and I don't think too much people have it, so if you could test it that would be cool.
Sep. 08, 2015  10:19 PM
 
I have already my custom its MF-H Sol Aquario 85/90RSF and you want to test against?
Sep. 08, 2015  10:57 PM
 
If you're talking about testing Sol Aquario against Jade Horogium, it maybe a bit more worthwhile to test against other attack as that's what Jade Horogium meant to be used against.

But I mean I'm not stopping you dude, go ahead if you'd like to.
Sep. 08, 2015  11:00 PM
 
What in the world is LTDC?
Sep. 08, 2015  11:01 PM
 
(Sep. 08, 2015  11:00 PM)BAWB18 Wrote: What in the world is LTDC?

An abbreviation for Low Track Defense Combo. Smile
Sep. 08, 2015  11:16 PM
 
(Sep. 08, 2015  10:57 PM)Mitsu Wrote: If you're talking about testing Sol Aquario against Jade Horogium, it maybe a bit more worthwhile to test against other attack as that's what Jade Horogium meant to be used against.

But I mean I'm not stopping you dude, go ahead if you'd like to.

I wouldn't do jade vs sol. its just to state Sol has an other LTDC like Jade.
Sep. 09, 2015  3:11 AM
 
(Sep. 08, 2015  9:51 PM)Wombat Wrote: Have you tried Jade vs. MHSC/BGrin yet? One of Bakushin's main appeal to me is how its shape can destabilize or even KO those combos if needed, and while Jade outweighs most everything in Limited now I'm not sure how successful it would be in those matchups.
I was planning on testing against Stamina, and actually was considering switching the CW to Scorpio to get some nice CW Attack going. I'll keep using Horogium for now, though.

(Sep. 08, 2015  9:51 PM)Wombat Wrote: Just out of curiosity, have you tried Eonis instead of Horogium (if you have it of course)? It's a pretty flat Clear Wheel and has better balance than Horogium (though it's not as smooth), so it could be looked at as an alternative option (the Hasbro release also has a nice burgundy color). A comparison between RSF and RB would be nice too.
I used to own Eonis (specifically the Hasbro release, haha) but I must have traded it or something, because I can't find it. RSF vs RB will change performance somewhat, but it's low on my priority list for testing because they are generally interchangeable. I chose RSF in this case because it has slightly better Stamina, IIRC.

(Sep. 08, 2015  9:51 PM)Wombat Wrote: Stamina Mode is the one where the Metal Balls are not held in place, correct? I was under the impression that that mode was the "Attack Mode" due to the slight (probably negligible) increase in OWD and how it now has 8 main contact points on its underside rather than 4. Granted not much will be hitting the underside if Jade is on 85RSF, but still, wouldn't Defense Mode be better for Defense? From my observations Stamina Mode also spins for noticeably longer though, so if that's what you were going for that's cool too.
Stamina mode is the mode where the metal balls are free, correct. I'm not seeing where you're getting the "8 attack points" thing, though. In either mode, Jade only has 4 significant attack points exposed on its underside, as well as 4 small attack points on its perimeter, near the front of each wing, similar to Pegasis. These outer attack points are small and I doubt that they offer much Smash, but I am seeing a little wear in that area, so I assume there are some significant impacts going on there. In Stamina Mode, Jade's Core fills these gaps somewhat and blocks off the insanely strong attack points on its underside. There still are some attack points on the underside in Stamina mode, but they are moved underneath the main body of each wing, and are much smaller and are sloped lightly, so they are far less aggressive. There is also the marginal Stamina boost the balls may give, which is good given that Jade isn't exactly top-tier Stamina material.
The best way I can think of to describe Jade's design and use in Attack while in Defense mode is this: Imagine Bump King's AR is made of metal and weighs 30g, then slap a 10 Heavy on it. The result is pretty similar to what happens when you put a heavy CW and a MF-H on Jade. It hits super hard, but has pretty much no Stamina whatsoever, and is as likely to KO itself as it is its opponent. I would really like to avoid having that kind of performance on a Defense type XD (though it's pretty awesome for Attack, as long as you go for the OHKO)

Tests against MSF-H Dark Knight Girago 85RF and Burn Cancer W145WD are coming soon, but I've been pretty busy lately Tongue_out

EDIT: Burn tests are up and added to the OP.
Sep. 09, 2015  9:41 PM
 
(Sep. 09, 2015  3:11 AM)Cake Wrote:
(Sep. 08, 2015  9:51 PM)Wombat Wrote: Stamina Mode is the one where the Metal Balls are not held in place, correct? I was under the impression that that mode was the "Attack Mode" due to the slight (probably negligible) increase in OWD and how it now has 8 main contact points on its underside rather than 4. Granted not much will be hitting the underside if Jade is on 85RSF, but still, wouldn't Defense Mode be better for Defense? From my observations Stamina Mode also spins for noticeably longer though, so if that's what you were going for that's cool too.
Stamina mode is the mode where the metal balls are free, correct. I'm not seeing where you're getting the "8 attack points" thing, though. In either mode, Jade only has 4 significant attack points exposed on its underside, as well as 4 small attack points on its perimeter, near the front of each wing, similar to Pegasis. These outer attack points are small and I doubt that they offer much Smash, but I am seeing a little wear in that area, so I assume there are some significant impacts going on there. In Stamina Mode, Jade's Core fills these gaps somewhat and blocks off the insanely strong attack points on its underside. There still are some attack points on the underside in Stamina mode, but they are moved underneath the main body of each wing, and are much smaller and are sloped lightly, so they are far less aggressive. There is also the marginal Stamina boost the balls may give, which is good given that Jade isn't exactly top-tier Stamina material.
The best way I can think of to describe Jade's design and use in Attack while in Defense mode is this: Imagine Bump King's AR is made of metal and weighs 30g, then slap a 10 Heavy on it. The result is pretty similar to what happens when you put a heavy CW and a MF-H on Jade. It hits super hard, but has pretty much no Stamina whatsoever, and is as likely to KO itself as it is its opponent. I would really like to avoid having that kind of performance on a Defense type XD (though it's pretty awesome for Attack, as long as you go for the OHKO)

I just took my Jade out of its box to look at it, and you're right about the four contact points thing in both modes. However, in Stamina Mode the notches on the Core are in front of the Metal Frame rather than behind it. Rather than being covered in one unified "blade" in Defense Mode the notched are exposed both horizontally and vertically which increases both Smash Attack and head on/horizontal Attack (blanked on what this was called exactly) since they protrude out from the gaps between the wings as well. Rather than hitting with the part that curves in, you're hitting with the part that sticks out.

Looking back at videos, it seems that Yuko switched modes throughout the tournament, but he also changed Tracks quite a bit too, so maybe there's some synergy thing I'm missing. I also recall both th!nk and Ingulit saying that Stamina Mode was better for Attack, and I've found it to be true as well (though it does have more recoil). I don't have my dish with me at the moment so I can't test, unfortunately.