I think those were good choices.
My only other real problem is that you should have 85/AD145/230 listed for Stamina.
Though I do think Pegasis is weak.

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I think those were good choices.
My only other real problem is that you should have 85/AD145/230 listed for Stamina.

Yes, I'm aware of this and I did want to, but I also think that Kai-V's concern is valid and needs to be looked into:

I think we could just skip DF145 and 145 and just add AD145, 85 and 230. What bothers me is that it was not always the same Metal Wheel that was being tested, so from my point of view we are not certain if, for instance, Virgo can really be good in Stamina with AD145, 85 and 230.

I'd like to have this tested a bit before we make any changes to the Stamina list.

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Sounds fair.
If I see my cousin anytime soon I'll try and help out with that.

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Now that Libra is unbanned, it has been added back to the Defense section.

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Furthermore, wouldn't the unbanning of Libra bring forth the "Balance" Combo, Libra CH120RF?

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Are those Libra combinations all top-tier still though ?

Furthermore, wouldn't the unbanning of Libra bring forth the "Balance" Combo, Libra CH120RF?

I'm not sure if Libra CH120RF is still top-tier. Has anyone been testing it recently?

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Furthermore, wouldn't the unbanning of Libra bring forth the "Balance" Combo, Libra CH120RF?

I'm not sure if Libra CH120RF is still top-tier. Has anyone been testing it recently?

Yesterday (not with RF,but with CS),against MF-H Hell Bull CH120RF.
It was 8-2 for Hell!

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Melseth,il diavolo che si annida nel profondo della mia mente... mi spinge alla distruzione e alla pazzia...

My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

Can we update the Stamina section? LTSC and 230 are both superior to DF145 and 145 now, and we have tests to prove it.

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Can we update the Stamina section? LTSC and 230 are both superior to DF145 and 145 now, and we have tests to prove it.

The only thing I was waiting for was for someone to test if Kai-V's point had any truth to it:

I think we could just skip DF145 and 145 and just add AD145, 85 and 230. What bothers me is that it was not always the same Metal Wheel that was being tested, so from my point of view we are not certain if, for instance, Virgo can really be good in Stamina with AD145, 85 and 230.

I'm sure the difference isn't that huge if there is one, so we can go ahead and update it. If anyone proves what Kai-V was saying as true, then we can simply change it again. What changes are you suggesting exactly?

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230/85/AD145 for Stamina, if others agree.

Do we have enough testing on Basalt for its addition?

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230/85/AD145 for Stamina, if others agree.

Do we have enough testing on Basalt for its addition?

Sound good to me. What about Hell Kerbecs BD145WD for Stamina and Hell Kerbecs BD145CS for ...? And how is BD145 as a Defensive Track on other Beyblades? I've been quite busy lately, so unfortunately I haven't been able to do much testing myself.

Basalt definitely for Defense. I haven't tested its Stamina properties, but I seem to remember it doing extremely well against Earth in some tests that I saw.

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85 should be added to Lightning L Drago. Personally it is the only height that works well for me, and it is almost invincible.

Sound good to me. What about Hell Kerbecs BD145WD for Stamina and Hell Kerbecs BD145CS for ...? And how is BD145 as a Defensive Track on other Beyblades? I've been quite busy lately, so unfortunately I haven't been able to do much testing myself.

Basalt definitely for Defense. I haven't tested its Stamina properties, but I seem to remember it doing extremely well against Earth in some tests that I saw.

I haven't seen too much testing with Hell Kerbecs BD145WD against 230 stamina combos, but it seems viable. IMO there needs to be more testing.

I haven't seen a lot of Hell Kerbecs BD145CS for a lot, but I'll look around for some tests.

BD145 is decent for defense, but it seems to scrape on the floor easily.

It seems like Basalt would be perfect for stamina; although it's not wide, all of its weight is focused on the outside of the wheel.

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Basalt for stamina customizations?
Please,try MF-H Basalt Bull BD145\AD145\GB145 RF\R2F\CS and say me if you with this attack customization don't crush the opponent's rotations!

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My Plastics/HMSs/MFBs Collection! (updated on 5/28/2012)

about basalt for stamina: it would be horrible, but basalt can make other beyblades lose rotations
which means beating a stamina type in its own best.

about bd145 being "decent" cause it scrapes easily: it's quite obvious. you have to play TALL bottoms with it.

85 should be added to Lightning L Drago. Personally it is the only height that works well for me, and it is almost invincible.

any LOW and actually GOOD combination can deal with lightning having even a small advantage (our old anti metagame earth90rf is an example)

if you're facing heights above 120 (not including 230) then l drago can do pretty well, but still it's up to the players.
a player who often plays against l drago will know that shooting the bey with a proper inclination will make l drago matchup much easier to win.

obviously, this is not valid if you test it against bottoms like WB, you'll clearly remember that italian people made a lot of vids of attack combos giving old defense top tiers a hard time.


edit:

considering that our definition of top tier is quite different (a top tier attack type is the one that performs best against defense types for you, while it's something that covers any possible negative matchup for us) you should consider that a lot of combos were made thinking like "must NOT have auto loss to xxx to be good" so yeah, 90 rf combos are indeed good, but if an opponent has 230 and can shoot at least in a decent way, it's game over (try to beat a hell 230 RS with lightning85rf and you'll obtain, assuming nothing strange happens, a 0-100 in 230 favor)


our tier needs work, but if you take a look at this draft you'll notice that against L Ldrago 85 rf:

Attack:
MF-H Hell Kerbecs\Bull BD145\CH120\85to105r RF -->55:45 for lightning, a proper inclination will help
a lot, 60:40 for hell if you're using a low track and proper inclination.

MF Gravity Perseus CH120\BD145 RF --->ch120 users will suffer lightning, BD will not.

MF-H Vulcan Horuseus\Bull 85\CH120 RF ----- ch120 users will suffer, 85 will not (85 is 50:50 i think)
MF-H Lightning LDrago 85\CH120 RF\R2F ---- lol
MF-H Basalt Bull BD145\GB145\AD145\90 RF ---- this won't suffer lightning at all.

Defense:
MF-H Earth Bull\Acquario\Kerbecs GB145\R145\BD145 RS --- LL drago fair advantage
MF-H Hell Bull\Kerbecs\Acquario 230 RSF\RS Ldrago 85 has an autoloss to this
MF-H Libra BD145\230 RS\RSF heavy disadvantage for l drago. more playable than hell230 anyway.
MF-H Earth Bull BD145 RSF --- must test to see if l drago wins by stealing spin, if not then i believe earth BD has a good matchup

Stamina: lightning will beat stamina without too much problems, let's skip it
Burn Bull\Virgo DF145\AD145\85 SD
Flame Bull\Cancer DF145\AD145\135\85 SD
Virgo DF145\85 SD

antimeta:
MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145 RSF\RS\CS --- enabling left spin on a rs makes things hard for lightning.
MF-H Libra CH120 RF --- the good old libra combo. can deal with lightning with proper inclination.
MF-H Basalt Bull 85 RS\CS\RSF ---- i believe this does well too


Combination:
MF Gravity Perseus 90 RF --- if you know how to play the l drago matchup, gravity gets a significant advantage.
MF-H Libra CH120 CS --- need to test because proper inclination is a bit screwed up by CS


all i can say is that lightning is really good for sure, but FAR from "almost invincible"

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"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

My thoughts on this is that now that we've seen the height of the wheel is as important as the height of the track for stamina types, individual stamina types should be listed rather than choosing top tier metal and clear wheels and whacking on the different optimal height tracks.

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nice point, in fact, stamina metagame isn't really evolved here. (just imagine a metagame dominated by RF, stamina is too risky)

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Oh Mighty Ocean, guide us as we journey through the darkest pit of night.

"Yamislayer, you are what we call Revolution. Your ideas, threads, often lead to something new, and even if not always successful, It's something that a non-revolutionary mind can't handle"

There are other changes that need to be made, but I think it's pretty safe to say that 230/AD145/85 should be added to Stamina, and Basalt Bull/Aquario to Defense, so I've gone ahead and done that.

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Where do we stand with Hell Kerbecs BD145WD as Stamina? What kind of tests are we looking for to validate it as a top-tier, because if I recall, it does well.

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The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Where do we stand with Hell Kerbecs BD145WD as Stamina? What kind of tests are we looking for to validate it as a top-tier, because if I recall, it does well.

I've heard it does extremely well, but I can't seem to remember where I saw any tests, if I ever did.

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Where should I post results for this? Hell or BD145 thread? In summary though, it does poorly against MF-H Earth Bull 230CS and much worse against MF-H Basalt Bull 230CS.. When it is dealt a hard hit (Hammered into it I suppose) it automatically shifts to one side balancing on WD decreasing its stamina, making it lose or it just gets plain KO'd. (Basalt only.) So, from my experience it does well against everything else but 230 is its kryptonite. I don't know what that means for it on the tier list though..

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Where should I post results for this? Hell or BD145 thread? In summary though, it does poorly against MF-H Earth Bull 230CS and much worse against MF-H Basalt Bull 230CS.. When it is dealt a hard hit (Hammered into it I suppose) it automatically shifts to one side balancing on WD decreasing its stamina, making it lose or it just gets plain KO'd. (Basalt only.) So, from my experience it does well against everything else but 230 is its kryptonite. I don't know what that means for it on the tier list though..

Maybe we could create a thread here in the Advanced Forum for customs that are being considered for "official" top-tier status? It would be better than clogging this thread with test results.

Is that so? I haven't tested it yet, but I seem to remember people saying that it somehow did well against 230 customs.

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It could be because my CS is a bit more aggressive and prone to move, especially with Basalt. Heavy, fast moving object and recoil tend to react when put together. (Hell just got KO'd half the time..) I think a 'pre top-tier' type of thread here would be good, exclusively for testing and ensured not to bog down with silly combinations. If your CS just stays still, your basically a sitting duck for destabilization and on a few accounts that would happen to Earth. Thanks to Basalts irregular distribution, a sort of hammer effect would occur which would destabilize Hell instead. I don't think many Hell on Basalt tests have been done anyway.

Edit: (Thanks to SSJ for finding the tests!)

I've heard it does extremely well, but I can't seem to remember where I saw any tests, if I ever did.

That was 230 stamina testing, yes: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-BD145-Te...#pid550447
While I did defense testing. After all, Stamina is meant to defeat Defense right? Incidentally Momo and I came up with the same conclusion about recoil.

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The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Momo got 90% win rates with Hell Kerbecs BD145WD VS Earth Bull 230WD:
http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-BD145-Testing?page=6

The metagame is looking a lot more balanced (Type-Wise; I still feel like 230 is dominating), now with all of these additions.

EDIT: I also think that Basalt should be looked into for stamina. Its round shape and its weight distribution seem to give it great stamina qualities, but testing must be obviously done.

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