[BURST LIMITED Proposal] Unban Ace, Slash, Erase, & Venom + GEN

Poll: Should ACE, SLASH, VENOM, and ERASE + GEN be unbanned from Burst limited?

Yes
32.00%
16
No
26.00%
13
Needs Testing First
40.00%
20
Indifferent
2.00%
1
Total: 100% 50 vote(s)
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:33 PM)#Fafnir Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:10 PM)Ryuga......Win Wrote: What bout sen or ten

Allowing Sen and/or Ten would make it possible to use more than one GT layer in a deck, which from what I can tell, is something that LazerBeamz doesn't want happening. Also, even though those are two of the lighter layer weights, it still adds about 6 or 7 more grams to the layer. In my honest opinion, I don't think that would play out too well in Limited.
Honestly why not? GT Beys with Gen are weak.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:24 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:33 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Allowing Sen and/or Ten would make it possible to use more than one GT layer in a deck, which from what I can tell, is something that LazerBeamz doesn't want happening. Also, even though those are two of the lighter layer weights, it still adds about 6 or 7 more grams to the layer. In my honest opinion, I don't think that would play out too well in Limited.
Honestly why not? GT Beys with Gen are weak.
Agreed. And bases like Rock, Venom and Ace would open up more meta options for attack and defense types.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:27 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:33 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Allowing Sen and/or Ten would make it possible to use more than one GT layer in a deck, which from what I can tell, is something that LazerBeamz doesn't want happening. Also, even though those are two of the lighter layer weights, it still adds about 6 or 7 more grams to the layer. In my honest opinion, I don't think that would play out too well in Limited.

I would agree with metsu or ten but not sen
Honestly, the weights not only increase the layers attack, defense and stamina by 5+ grams but also their burst resistance, based on that I think Gen is the only safe play since light with very high burst resistance is a lot less threatening than heavy with above average (for limited format) burst resistance.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:24 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  6:33 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Allowing Sen and/or Ten would make it possible to use more than one GT layer in a deck, which from what I can tell, is something that LazerBeamz doesn't want happening. Also, even though those are two of the lighter layer weights, it still adds about 6 or 7 more grams to the layer. In my honest opinion, I don't think that would play out too well in Limited.
Honestly why not? GT Beys with Gen are weak.

That's the point. The reason that only Gen would be allowed would be to restrict the power of the layers and to keep people from using more than one in a deck.
Keep in mind that this is a format meant for God layers and weaker Cho-Z layers.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:30 PM)Zeutron Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:27 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: I would agree with metsu or ten but not sen
Honestly, the weights not only increase the layers attack, defense and stamina by 5+ grams but also their burst resistance, based on that I think Gen is the only safe play since light with very high burst resistance is a lot less threatening than heavy with above average (for limited format) burst resistance.

I misread the post
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:31 PM)#Fafnir Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:24 PM)g2_ Wrote: Honestly why not? GT Beys with Gen are weak.

That's the point. The reason that only Gen would be allowed would be to restrict the power of the layers and to keep people from using more than one in a deck.
Keep in mind that this is a format meant for God layers and weaker Cho-Z layers.
So? Slash Valkyrie and Rock Dragon are weaker than Z Achilles. I dont them dominating.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:32 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:31 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: That's the point. The reason that only Gen would be allowed would be to restrict the power of the layers and to keep people from using more than one in a deck.
Keep in mind that this is a format meant for God layers and weaker Cho-Z layers.
So? Slash Valkyrie and Rock Dragon are weaker than Z Achilles. I dont them dominating.

Slash used to have use competitively in standard when OP Cho-Z beyblades like Perfect Phoenix and Cho-Z Spriggan were everywhere, so Slash with a layer weight isn't the best idea.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:35 PM)#Fafnir Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:32 PM)g2_ Wrote: So? Slash Valkyrie and Rock Dragon are weaker than Z Achilles. I dont them dominating.

Slash used to have use competitively in standard when OP Cho-Z beyblades like Perfect Phoenix and Cho-Z Spriggan were everywhere, so Slash with a layer weight isn't the best idea.
I disagree, I'll make some testing.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:45 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:35 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: Slash used to have use competitively in standard when OP Cho-Z beyblades like Perfect Phoenix and Cho-Z Spriggan were everywhere, so Slash with a layer weight isn't the best idea.
I disagree, I'll make some testing.

I mean, I guess testing wouldn't hurt, but I doubt that allowing a few layer weights would be a good thing for Limited.
With a layer weight, Slash would pretty much be a Winning Valkyrie on steroids. And if a few of the lighter layer weights are allowed, it would be possible to use more than one GT combination in a deck, which is something that should probably be avoided.
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:58 PM)#Fafnir Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:45 PM)g2_ Wrote: I disagree, I'll make some testing.

I mean, I guess testing wouldn't hurt, but I doubt that allowing a few layer weights would be a good thing for Limited.
With a layer weight, Slash would pretty much be a Winning Valkyrie on steroids. And if a few of the lighter layer weights are allowed, it would be possible to use more than one GT combination in a deck, which is something that should probably be avoided.
Can't you simply limit it to one GT combination?
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:32 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:31 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: That's the point. The reason that only Gen would be allowed would be to restrict the power of the layers and to keep people from using more than one in a deck.
Keep in mind that this is a format meant for God layers and weaker Cho-Z layers.
So? Slash Valkyrie and Rock Dragon are weaker than Z Achilles. I dont them dominating.
Rock and Slash on the gen weight would definitely both be meta material. Their only problem was that they were set in a meta full of better gt layers. Rock would make an excellent attacker as it would be an unburstable/ slightly heavier w2 layer and slash would Valkyrie may see some play too. They can definitely dominate.
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:29 PM)Zeutron Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:32 PM)g2_ Wrote: So? Slash Valkyrie and Rock Dragon are weaker than Z Achilles. I dont them dominating.
Rock and Slash on the gen weight would definitely both be meta material. Their only problem was that they were set in a meta full of better gt layers. Rock would make an excellent attacker as it would be an unburstable/ slightly heavier w2 layer and slash would Valkyrie may see some play too. They can definitely dominate.
Pit Slash against Drain Fafnir. They won't dominate.
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:32 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:29 PM)Zeutron Wrote: Rock and Slash on the gen weight would definitely both be meta material. Their only problem was that they were set in a meta full of better gt layers. Rock would make an excellent attacker as it would be an unburstable/ slightly heavier w2 layer and slash would Valkyrie may see some play too. They can definitely dominate.
Pit Slash against Drain Fafnir. They won't dominate.
Drain Fafnir is one bey. Fafnir is particularly weak against smooth surface destabilizers and what do you think dominates smooth surface destabilizers? Same spin attack types. Maybe they won’t dominate as I said but they are definitely meta material. High LAD attackers can also destroy reverse rotating beys.
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:01 PM)g2_ Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  7:58 PM)#Fafnir Wrote: I mean, I guess testing wouldn't hurt, but I doubt that allowing a few layer weights would be a good thing for Limited.
With a layer weight, Slash would pretty much be a Winning Valkyrie on steroids. And if a few of the lighter layer weights are allowed, it would be possible to use more than one GT combination in a deck, which is something that should probably be avoided.
Can't you simply limit it to one GT combination?

That might work, but even so, I don't think it would be a good idea to add lighter weights into Limited.
Here's a comparison between Slash Dragon2 00E Ultimate Reboot' Sen and Slash Dragon2 00E Ultimate Reboot' Gen.
Comparison test (Click to View)
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:34 PM)#Fafnir Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  8:01 PM)g2_ Wrote: Can't you simply limit it to one GT combination?

That might work, but even so, I don't think it would be a good idea to add lighter weights into Limited.
Here's a comparison between Slash Dragon2 00E Ultimate Reboot' Sen and Slash Dragon2 00E Ultimate Reboot' Gen.
Comparison test (Click to View)
The thing about the Cho z layers in limited is that their heavy weight compensates for their lacklustre designs but by giving a 5+ gram boost to certain gt bases that are decent/good it can effectively make the overpowered. I agree with you and think that gen is the way to go.
Sorry I’m later than expected but here’s some tests

Nightmare Longinus angle Quick’ VS Erase Bahamut 00 Proof Atomic Gen
(Alternating launches with ties re done)
nL.a.Qc’: 80% win rate: KOs: 6 OS:2
EB.00P.At: 20% win rate: All KOs

Nightmare Longinus angle Quick’ VS Erase Bahamut 00 Proof Destroy ’ Gen
(Alternating launches with ties re done)
nL.a.Qc’: 70% win rate: OS: 5 KOs:2
EB.00P.Ds’ 30% win rate: All KOs

It didn’t seem like It was doing well as a defense type. You could say it was so good at defense sometimes that it would get out spun by the attack type before it could even KO it. (Even then it still got KOed sometimes) So much I had to consider launching nL first and even then It would get out spun. It got some lucky KOs on nL but other than that it wasn’t doing too hot. So with that I just wanted to see how bad stamina this thing had when I put it up against dF and gF

Drain Fafnir Outer Atomic VS Erase Bahamut Outer Atomic Gen
(dF was launched first every time)
dF: 80% win rate: OS: 7 KOs:1
EB: 20%: All KOs

Giest Fafnir Outer Atomic VS Erase Bahamut Outer Atomic Gen
(gF was launched first every time)
gF: 90% win rate: All OS
EF: 10% win rate: All KO

So it doesn’t seem like Erase is good against left spin stamina types in mirror matches, but I didn’t test it against a right spin attack beyblade yet so let’s see how well that goes

Z Achilles 0 Expand Quick’ VS Erase Bahamut 00 Expand Destroy’ Gen
(EB was launched first since it is not an attack type while zA is)
zA: 60% win rate: KOs: 5 OS:1
EB: 40% win rate: All OS

So It doesn’t seem too good against right spin attack types ether. But It was able to score some KOs before so why don’t we test it for attack?

Erase Bahamut 00 Expand Quick’ Gen VS Giest Fafnir 00 Proof Atomic
(Giest was launched first)
gF: 70% win rate: All OS
EB: 30% win rate: KOs:1 BF:2

I can’t seem to find something that works on Erase that gives it some redeeming qualities. It has some decent burst power against gF, But it was extremely inconsistent with hitting gF well. So in conclusion, I think Erase is no threat to the meta if we add it into limited. It could find a use later, but I can’t see anything at the moment
Is gen still required, or can you choose not to have any weight?
(Aug. 29, 2020  9:19 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Is gen still required, or can you choose not to have any weight?
I’m pretty sure not choosing to have a weight is illegal combination even though it is a hinderance so the answer is no.
(Aug. 29, 2020  9:24 PM)Zeutron Wrote:
(Aug. 29, 2020  9:19 PM)6Jupiter5 Wrote: Is gen still required, or can you choose not to have any weight?
I’m pretty sure not choosing to have a weight is illegal combination even though it is a hinderance so the answer is no.

That’s unfortunate guess I’ll stick to Geist if there ever will be any limited tournaments in Illinois.
Honestly this layers are useless with the gen weight. You might as well unban every GT layer, except Judgement, Zwei, Lord, Master and Imperial, plus the Infinity lock beys.
I initially voted "No" to this and after testing, I can say I would change my vote to a Yes (but there's no option to change votes).

Erase is worse than awful. No issues allowing it.
Slash might be too good, so lets see it play out in an experimental tournament setting.
Ace gets destabilized easily. Even tornado stallers beat Ace using Atomic. No issues here.
I don't think there's enough data on Venom. I think Rock, Grand, and Union (Speed) would be worth testing. I don't own Rock's 2nd mold (which is better), and I just haven't gotten around to the other two.

(Aug. 30, 2020  1:10 AM)g2_ Wrote: Honestly this layers are useless with the gen weight. You might as well unban every GT layer, except Judgement, Zwei, Lord, Master and Imperial, plus the Infinity lock beys.

I've played around with Union (Power) on Gen for fun and that layer would be overpowered. I think Flare would be too heavy as well. Don't even get me started on Heaven or Poison or Tact.
(Sep. 04, 2020  2:43 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I initially voted "No" to this and after testing, I can say I would change my vote to a Yes (but there's no option to change votes).

Erase is worse than awful. No issues allowing it.
Slash might be too good, so lets see it play out in an experimental tournament setting.
Ace gets destabilized easily. Even tornado stallers beat Ace using Atomic. No issues here.
I don't think there's enough data on Venom. I think Rock, Grand, and Union (Speed) would be worth testing. I don't own Rock's 2nd mold (which is better), and I just haven't gotten around to the other two.

(Aug. 30, 2020  1:10 AM)g2_ Wrote: Honestly this layers are useless with the gen weight. You might as well unban every GT layer, except Judgement, Zwei, Lord, Master and Imperial, plus the Infinity lock beys.

I've played around with Union (Power) on Gen for fun and that layer would be overpowered. I think Flare would be too heavy as well. Don't even get me started on Heaven or Poison or Tact.
I don’t think rock would be overpowered (but maybe it could potentially hold some attack potential?). Not so sure about Grand and Union though. Union, with its sword has some weight to it and is generally a good base but I do like your idea of individually testing speed mode. Grand would be Blaze Ragnaruk with a smoother surface which is interesting to say the least, worth testing imo.

I just did a bunch of testing related to this thread's topic with Grand, Union (Speed), and Flare.

Grand

Union (Speed)

Flare

My conclusion was that unbanning Grand would be fine, Union is in a suspect category where I'd unbanning but reconsider banning after some tournament usage, and Flare I would keep banned because its superior weight really does matter. I don't own Rock's second mold, but I suspect it would be just as bad as Grand and Ace.

It does seem like a good way to diversify the format while also making better defensive options, though they severely lack stamina. Union (Speed) and Slash I would be wary of, but definitely worth putting out there for testing in a tournament setting.
god thats literaly the whole point of limited for god most hasbros and the weaker chozs i dont get it standard is already unbalenced

i mean i guess erase wouldnt relly matter