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APRIL FOOLS: MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB (Limited Format V2.0)

Apr. 01, 2014  8:07 PM
 
::MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB::

EDIT: April Fools! - Limited Format V2.0 was a joke, though the tests and pretty much everything I said with regards to how certain parts or setups performed were legitimate (or for the latter, accurate to the best of my knowledge). Happy April 1st, everyone.

This is another combination I've been playing around with for Limited Format V2.0 – if you don't know about it, check the announcement here: http://worldbeyblade.org/Thread-Limited-...ormat-v2-0


It's a pretty standard defense combination, based on parts we're already familiar with for having some semblance of defensive ability – Grand, C145, WB. Serpent is chosen as it's one of the heaviest Clear Wheels in Limited Format V2.0, but also because I'm not cool enough to own an Orso, which is slightly heavier and therefore would likely make this combination even more deadly (on top of the already dangerous cool factor Orso brings to the mix).
I also don't have a huge number of tests, however, I'm not joking when I say the reason I wanted to get this up today specifically is because one of the sets of results legitimately worries me – I think this thing might be a bit too good for Limited Format V2.0 – that we may have accidentally left a defensive monster in the mix – basically, I think this combination might not be awful, and in doing so be far too strong for this new incarnation of Limited and our focus on keeping only the worst parts available for use...


Testing
All testing in a BB-10, using lubricated Light Launcher 2's (power basically the same as a beylauncher, maybe very slightly lower), done according to standard procedure.

Okay, first off we have the tests I posted against my earlier combination, MF-F Flame Kronos 105JSB

MF-F Flame Kronos 105JSB vs MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Flame: 8/10 = 80% (1KO, 7OS)
Grand: 2/10 = 20% (2KO)

Not too worrying it seems, Grand can be outspun though it does manage a couple of KO's, which could indicate that perhaps further experimentation could produce something capable of doing so reliably.


Okay so that wasn't too bad, but Flame is already perhaps too strong for Limited V2.0. The reason this combination scares me is what happened when I put it up against something the new format is supposed to be elevating to a long-awaited and richly undeserved place in the winning combinations thread, MF-F Poison Unicorno 105Q:

MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB vs MF-F Poison Unicorno 105Q
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Grand: 15/20 = 75% (5KO, 10OS)
Poison: 5/20 = 25% (All KO)

... Oh dear.

I tried banking deeper, banking inverted, every angle possible both sliding and not, but Poison just wasn't managing to get those KO's, and GKO was managing to rebound and even use Poison's recoil against it and net just as many KO's as poison did. Pretty scary.

So, perhaps Limited Format V2.0 hasn't gone far enough? Do we need to make Poison the only legal metal wheel to truly make every part in a format viable by merit of removing any part that is even reasonably worthwhile?

Yes, this is just one poison combination and Q's recoil control is quite poor, but informal testing with some other effective Limited Format V2.0 Attack setups – such as M145ES (no joke by the way, it's generally accepted by those like me who looked into it back in the day that sharp tips are some of the best choices for using M145 as an even remotely practical part – I've posted about it a few times, I think including when BeyBouncer first started asking M145 questions), even using my 0 Mold Rock, a part that I legitimately thought would be too strong for Limited V2.0, failed to do well against it – we're looking at 40% maximum here for MF-F Rock Serpent M145ES vs MF-F Grand Horogium C145WB (I don't have two Serpents, sadly).
It could just be that I'm not skilled enough with M145 or Q, of course – this format is every bit as demanding of a blader's skill as it was intended to be, no doubt about that, and I will say I didn't have as much time as I'd have liked to get used to using either of them, but I still just don't see it managing. I mean maybe with a really, really strong hand spin Leone might manage to handle it, in which case it's probably not an issue as that rewards skill but I don't know if even that will work out. But yeah, I sat down and tested this thing, and those are the numbers I got, and that worries me.

So yeah, this is definitely something you guys should try out for yourselves as I'm worried that with AN coming up we might have a Poison-less Winning Combinations list and I think we can all agree that we want to avoid that situation, given how it would undermine the legitimacy of Limited Format V2.0.

-th!nk
Apr. 01, 2014  8:24 PM
 
Oh, Grand is the least of your worries brush.

MF-F Rock Orso X : D should shred this thing. Eee
Apr. 01, 2014  8:33 PM
 
I played around with various Rock setups as it was, as mentioned (and they're some of the better attack setups in the format barring a very strong hand spin for Leone), and didn't get anywhere. X: D's recoil control is awful so I don't think it will do any better, though I might give F: D a shot.

However, unless Poison can manage on one of these setups I am still concerned.
Apr. 01, 2014  9:15 PM
 
Hmmm... I've gotten quite different results here:


MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB vs. MF-F Poison Orso 105Q
Grand always launched first.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Grand: 9 (3 OS, 6 KO)
Poison: 11 (0 OS, 11 KO)
Grand Win %: 45.0%

The only cause I could assume behind these drastically different numbers, would be that Orso has some sort of synergy with Poison that Unicorno doesn't offer. Haven't tried any M145 setups as of now, but these numbers are at least a bit less worrying (especially as I wouldn't call myself a master of Q per say).

Well, I think we've learned a valuable lesson here. We need no confirmation testing and/or further experimentation or anything annoying/unnecessary like that, because these tests obviously inherently prove that Poison is useless for Attack without Orso.

Oh, BTW:

MF-F Grand Serpent C145WB vs. MF-F Rock Orso X : D (S mode)
Rock launched first on even launches, Grand launched first on odd.
Detail Results (Click to View)
Grand: 0 (0 OS, 0 KO)
Rock: 10 (8 OS, 2 KO)
Grand Win %: 0.0%
Apr. 01, 2014  9:18 PM
 
Could be an issue for our beloved Poison...

Tests against Cyber Orso 105 LF, please.
Apr. 01, 2014  9:22 PM
 
Hey TBD, could you see how much damage Rock X : D could cause in XF mode? IMO, Rock might prove a problem with its stalling capabilities. Thanks !
Apr. 01, 2014  9:29 PM
 
I tried it, yah. 12 KO for Rock to 4 KO/4 OS for Serpent, but the S results were so much better I decided against posting the former. That said, it still did just as well/slightly better than Poison, and its added versatility against just about every other possible combination in the format makes it pretty much blatantly superior.
Apr. 01, 2014  9:32 PM
 
I did leave open the possibility that it might be me sucking with Q - it's a very demanding tip, but perhaps Orso is just a particularly strong offensive clear wheel (actually, that's something that definitely needs testing just in general as I'm curious about it).

Oh right, that'll be Rock's latent stamina ability (as seen in the rock tornado stallers I mentioned) at work, I didn't really think about that, but its solo spin was the closest thing to Burn even before the latter got banned so I'd managed to get it to work okay against some things for stamina in the past, so no surprise there. I personally think Rock is far too good for this format but with so few tests and so much ridicule and derision of the part in the past, what can you do? Probably best that it gets to show off, I guess, though perhaps a quickban is in order.
Apr. 02, 2014  2:20 AM
 
I feel kinda bad for you now th!nk because based off of what you told me you actually took the time to do April Fool's testing haha.
Apr. 02, 2014  4:54 AM
 
(Apr. 02, 2014  2:20 AM)Ga Wrote: I feel kinda bad for you now th!nk because based off of what you told me you actually took the time to do April Fool's testing haha.

Never underestimate how far I'm willing to go to make a good joke (actually, the fact I got to ask someone "Do you really think I'd make two testing threads for a joke?" with a straight face was the highlight of my evening, even if they didn't buy it). But honestly it was a lot of fun trying to figure out how to get Q to do things on short notice. You know, I was actually not aware of the extent of just how awful it was - turns out the thing manages to have worse stamina than RF on wheels in this weight range and I just don't even know how it manages that (and that's the second mold, who knows what the first one is like).


Also, my statement about being curious about Orso's use as an offensive clear wheel was 100% legit - I would appreciate someone looking into it as it looks from images like it would be excellent.

Oh and the M145ES/M145+S-Series tips was legit too, especially without any rubber tips around, stamina-ish tips have generally been the best options for getting it to be aggressive but controllable - I generally stick to ES but if I remember correctly MS is actually better, however it will almost certainly dent your stadium so don't try it. Actually, pretty much all of the stuff I said about part performance in these threads was accurate to the best of my knowledge as I recall it, though there are likely better offensive track/tip setups than what I used (aside from WSF, there's GF which is hard to control but could probably still work without any rubber opposing it, and there's the flat mode of HF/S which is similar to WF and so mostly usable, I think I mentioned that I'd never had luck with F or HF offensively and that is correct, but there is also F: D and D: D, and of course X: D though I've always found the latter too prone to self KO for serious offensive usage).
tl;dr the testing threads were actually pretty much legitimate within the context of the completely ridiculous joke format they were made for because I'm way too dedicated to both jokes and the sanctity of tests.