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MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF

Jul. 16, 2011  9:03 AM
 
th!nk and I came across this combo. It has amazing potential and has served us well in the last few tournaments. The combo I present to you all is not entirely innovative. In fact, it is almost identical to Dan's MF-H Basalt Kerbecs 230WF. So why am I making a new thread for this combo? It's because it performs much more greater than Dan's combo and therefore it deserves it's own thread. It has a single part swapped that makes all the difference, TH170. TH170 allows it to handle any combo, simply changing the height and adjusting your launch will change performance greatly. It has an aggressive pattern because of WF, has great knock out power, stands it's ground against attackers, and even out-spins top-tier stamina combos. This is absolutely a true balance type.

This combo is very specific, every part matters. Aquario is certainly not a replacement to Kerbecs, it must be Kerbecs. Kerbecs balances out Basalt's 'staircase of death' and great affects performance. Kerbecs must be set on Basalt in this position:
[Image: 0000175.jpg]


With this combo you'll need to learn two different launches; Banking; where you create a flower-like pattern. And stalling; where the beyblade circles the tornado ridge. Mastering these launches is absolutely important to the success of this combo.

I'll let the results speak for themselves:

Standard Procedure

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 195 height (stall) vs. MF Lightning L Drago BD145R2F (bank) (R2F worn to prime)
Basalt Kerbecs: 17 wins (11 OS, 6 KO)
Lightning L Drago: 3 wins (2 OS, 1 KO)
Draws: 2
Win rate: 85%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 195 height (stall) vs. MF Lightning L Drago BD145R2F (stall) (R2F worn to prime)
Basalt Kerbecs: 14 wins (11 OS, 3 KO)
Lightning L Drago: 6 wins (2 OS, 4 KO)
Draws: 7
Win rate: 70%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 195 height (stall) vs. MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF (120 height XF) (bank)
Basalt Kerbecs: 18 wins (18 KO)
Meteo L Drago: 2 wins (1 OS, 1 KO)
Draws: 3
Win rate: 90%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 220 height (stall) vs. MF Meteo L Drago CH120XF (145 height) (bank)
Basalt Kerbecs: 20 wins (18 KO, 2 OS)
Meteo L Drago: 0 wins
Draws: 4
Win rate: 100%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 220 height (stall) vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario 230CS (calm CS)
Basalt Kerbecs: 16 wins (11 OS, 5 KO)
Basalt Aquario: 4 wins (4 OS)
Draws: 2
Win rate: 80%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 195 height (stall) vs. MF-H Basalt Aquario 230MF (stall)
Basalt Kerbecs: 16 wins (10 OS, 6 KO)
Basalt Aquario: 4 wins (2 OS, 2 OS)
Draws: 5
Win rate: 80%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 220 height (bank) vs. MF Scythe Kronos BD145CS (calm CS)
Basalt Kerbecs: 14 wins (13 OS, 1 KO)
Scythe Kronos: 6 wins (6 OS)
Draws: 6
Win rate: 70%

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170WF - 220 height (bank) vs. MF-H Hell Bull BD145CS boost mode (calm CS)
Basalt Kerbecs: 15 wins (7 OS, 8 KO)
Hell Bull: 5 wins (2 OS, 3 KO)
Draws: 4
Win rate: 75%

Huge shout-out to th!nk. He's a real smart guy who contributed much to this combo. He helped me figure out the launch styles and heights for each situation. He has helped with the discovery of much of this. Check out his results in the second post of this thread; directly below this one. Don't see it as a "first reply", see it as continuation of the thread.

BEFORE YOU DECLARE A "COUNTER"
Spoiler (Click to View)
Jul. 16, 2011  9:03 AM
 
This is a bit rushed. Will be fixed later on, I've got work right now, but want to get this up as otherwise it'd have to wait til monday.

Well, Hero has basically said it all perfectly, so here’s my post. Consider this a “Second First Post”. I would’ve done more tests, but my CS is aggro on Basalt BD145, and I’m short for time. Just wanted to cover some extra ground here, this’ll be updated with more tests and such.

Also, the reason we mentioned banking but lack tests that use it: Basically, it lets you KO most stamina combo’s that you can’t outspin (though there aren’t THAT many of them, Low track Basalt combo’s are basically the only thing that resists the force smash, but we’ll have testing on others later)


All Testing is with Beylauncher LR for right spins, Beylauncher L for left, no grips because I dislike them, standard conditions

You could get better results than these by launching harder, I'm quite sure.

MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH195WF, stall VS MLD CH145XF

Detailed Results, Info (Click to View)
Basalt Win Rate: 14/20 (all KO) = 70%
Meteo Win Rate: 6/20 (3KO, 3OS) = 30%

So yeah, don’t stress, just launch real hard, straight, just off the middle of the stadium.


MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH195WF, stall Vs MF LLD BD145LRF
Detailed Results, Info (Click to View)
Basalt Win Rate: 11/20 (7KO, 4OS) = 55%
Lightning Win Rate: 9/20 (All KO) = 45%

LRF helps here, I guess. I’d like some results between two people of even strength, alternating combo’s, if anyone can provide with the full combo’s for both of these. I think basalt would do better, as they should be colliding on the tornado ridge, instead of while one is stalling.



MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH195WF, stall, VS MF-H Libra BD145MF
Detailed Results, Info (Click to View)
Basalt Win Rate: 12/20 (All KO) = 60%
Libra Win Rate: 8/20 (6KO, 2 OS) = 40%

Here’s something you don’t see enough of:

Counters

We're all too focussed on "defending" "our" combo's, and not about advancing the game as a whole. Don't get me wrong, people's criticism of and defense against bullcarp counters is something I strongly agree with. But we should always keep in mind that the combo's we are testing CAN lose.
Basically, test thoroughly before you say you have a counter, test before you dispute a counter (unless it's obviously ridiculous).

Here's a list of beys that work very well against this. It's worth keeping in mind so far all of them lose to MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS (not sure about the Scythe one, though) so just keep a calm CS on you, and know what height to use

MF Scythe Aquario BD145EDS: This is a beast of a combo, it's very hard to OS or KO.

For the following two, extreme banking (a "scraping shot"), if correctly executed, gives you a decent chance, but they are still extremely hard to beat.
MF-H Basalt Aquario 85CS. Outspins pretty easily, not too badly hurt by force smash from TH220, too tall for 195 to get good clearance, too hard to KO with 170. However, the same combo with Kerbecs is more susceptible to OS from force smash.

MF-H Basalt Aquario 85WD: You can try harsh banking with 170 for a KO, but yeah, just try to avoid facing it.
And yeah, it kills a lot of stuff, the main point though is it's generally a very safe choice for stalling clause/having no idea what your opponent will use. I'll have tests against MF-H Gravity Perseus BD145CS up eventually, I recall the combo doing very well against it in practice.
The bonus of this is usually you'll face combo's people consider "safe", which this usually will beat.

And yeah, me and Hero both used this to win our tourneys, though I ended up using CS instead for the latter half (I was tired and my launch was a little off, though it's not that hard to launch).

And we've been working with this for months, by the way, so calling BS on our results or saying "did you try this" will go down like a lead balloon. Believe me, we probably tried launching whatever combo in whatever way we could. These results are the best they do against this combo, so you'll do better if your opponent doesn't know what launch to use.

And no, I don't have a video, and nor should you request them. If you think I'm forging results for a spinning top, you are either paranoid or an idiot.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:19 AM
 
Congrats Hero and Th!nk
this seems like a very nice combo indeed
man it even demolished my combo ( however i still like that it got 40%, because this combo (BKTH1702F) does so well, A 40% With my combo seems alright)
anyway i hope to see more tests in the future Smile
EDIT: Do u mind if i add the Libra results to my thread
what would this bey place as in type ( ATK, ETC)
Jul. 16, 2011  9:20 AM
 
I like your combo too man, it's absolutely awesome, wish I'd posted it myself. Shame it scrapes with WF, or it'd be killer. It's only problem was it wasn't quick enough, methinks. Honestly, in a tourney situation, launch power could be the deciding factor.

Still, I'm being too humble here, this combo here is bloody awesome. It's all about momentum, baby.

And yeah, credit to Dan, Bluezee, and ControL_ (the first two for this combo's predecessor, and the latter for motivating me to actually test this out when I got TH170).

And btw, a good bank can KO any EWD-based "counters" to this with ease, from my testing.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:26 AM
 
so libra scrapes with WF, what a shame
yeah Power would change everything
u could get a noob going " OO HAHA GOT A GOOD COMBO" (your combo) and then launch it that it doesnt meet the right speed
then they fail
im not saying it is bad, but power could change everything, and how the person launches,timing and landing

Yes this combo IS bloody awesome XD
wasn't EWD not the best tip anyway ???
Jul. 16, 2011  9:26 AM
 
Also, don't expect replies from me for like 5 hours, off to work. I'll try to get back to everyone when I get back. Hero is getting some much needed sleep now, too. As I said, we needed to post this or let it sit for another two days Wink

DarkBlader: A noob would generally lack TH170 and WF, but yeah, it's possible. EWD counters a lot of things, check the winning combo's thread for the last couple of months. Plus, it's been mentioned to me in a few "counters" which, as I said, don't seem to cause me any trouble in terms of winning.

AND IF ANYONE WANT TO KNOW WHAT TIPS TO SUB: MF is the next best thing, but WF lets you beat MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS much more reliably, from what I've tested with both on 230. It's just better in general, but you can use it if you must. The track is crucial as Hero said, so you cannot substitute it, or you get an ENTIRELY different combo. Go to the 230MF/WF thread linked in the OP for that.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:35 AM
 
Those are nice results. Since it is the weekend, I would have some time to do few testings, and I love how th!nk gives a couple counter combos for fair play.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:36 AM
 
Hey, you can't lie about these things, a counter is a counter, and it's better than someone going OH WOW THIS COMBO SUCKS COS X BEATS IT, and making a huge thread about it, when I could have just told everyone Tongue_out

That said, as I expect TH170CS to start dominating most metagames soon, they're not a HUGE issue for this combo's viability Wink

Just remember, launch HARD, use your Man-Arms Tongue_out
Jul. 16, 2011  9:39 AM
 
Haha. Totally. How could we move forward if we lie to ourselves? In much situations, if WF can't win CS will likely destroy. They make up for eachother.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:39 AM
 
Any preference on what I should test it against?
Jul. 16, 2011  9:41 AM
 
We need more Hell based combos tested against. That would be a great start.
Jul. 16, 2011  9:56 AM
 
BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!! This is one great combo! Hey, as long as I remember, MF was the part of the original combo. So, why was it replaced with WF, and why did MF go in the 'alternative tips'? Just asking. Smile
I would love to see this combo go high up on the list of top tiers, and give a tough competition to the current rulers- MLD CH120XF, LLD BD145LRF, Basalt Kerbecs TH170CS!
Great combo, th!nk and Hero! Grin
Jul. 16, 2011  9:59 AM
 
WF has more grip to the stadium. It's faster and lastly it has more stamina. You aren't giving up too much control for those benefits. It isn't crazy like say XF. It provides much better results than MF.
Jul. 16, 2011  12:05 PM
 
(Jul. 16, 2011  9:59 AM)Hero Wrote: WF has more grip to the stadium. It's faster and lastly it has more stamina. You aren't giving up too much control for those benefits. It isn't crazy like say XF. It provides much better results than MF.

Oh! Well, thanks a lot! Once again, a great combo! Grin
Jul. 16, 2011  12:21 PM
 
Hah you finally got this up , if you could test against Basalt BD145EDS as it beats the CS variant of this combo.
And yeah i am really loving the CS version of the combo so i can't wait to get my hands on a WF .
Jul. 16, 2011  1:08 PM
 
This thread made me smile. I had a good feeling about this when you told me th!nk. Thank you so much. Just out of curiousity though, why wasn't LRF used on LLDBD145LRF? Also, was it shot in the same was as this combo meaning if you tornado stalled this combo did you do it with the opposing combo?
Jul. 16, 2011  1:11 PM
 
(Jul. 16, 2011  1:08 PM)Bluezee Wrote: This thread made me smile. I had a good feeling about this when you told me th!nk. Thank you so much. Just out of curiousity though, why wasn't LRF used on LLDBD145LRF? Also, was it shot in the same was as this combo meaning if you tornado stalled this combo did you do it with the opposing combo?

Seems like Hero doesn't have it, or doesn't wanna wear it down much...
But, if you wanna see the tests against LLDBD145LRF, read th!nk's post just below it! Grin
Best Regards,
Janstarblast.
Jul. 16, 2011  1:43 PM
 
Just to add, adding potential counters is brilliant. I definitely think that this should become a more common feature of threads, to be honest; there's been a huge reluctance on so many threads to accept counters, so putting it out there into the open is great. Good job, kudos.

I've played with Basalt 230WF before and I actually really like it; although I don't have a TH170 yet, I look forward to testing this.
Jul. 16, 2011  3:36 PM
 
@♥: Yeah, as I said, I think it'd do a lot for the forum, not only for the atmosphere, but for readers in general. What I really mean to say, is thanks Smile

Bluezee: Hero basically checked most of the shots and matchups with me before testing, so it's usually safe to assume he did the best thing for both (he's a super smart guy, and doesn't get enough recognition around here).
I'm sure he'll note down the launches in time, we kinda rushed to get this up today.

All of mine have the detail, though. I'll test against MF LLD BD145R2F tomorrow to see if there really is that much of a difference between R2F and LRF.

And yeah, never forget the option of banking, especially if you're losing by outspin. MF MLD WD145/ED145 EWD was mentioned as a counter (ControL_ told me they found it countered the MF version), but I find them both easy to KO, it's just getting the hang of getting WF to head through the centre a few times. If you don't KO, you can ruin their spin so bad. I tested anything else that used TH170 with both on 230. Again, does well against everything I came across there (basically EWD spin steal combo's).

Just to say, 195 is an amazing height that seems to put your centre of gravity in an awkward position for most things.

It's kind of a defence combo for people who don't like defence combo's (read: me).
Jul. 16, 2011  5:30 PM
 
(Jul. 16, 2011  1:08 PM)Bluezee Wrote: This thread made me smile. I had a good feeling about this when you told me th!nk. Thank you so much. Just out of curiousity though, why wasn't LRF used on LLDBD145LRF? Also, was it shot in the same was as this combo meaning if you tornado stalled this combo did you do it with the opposing combo?

Janstarblast is correct, I unfortunately don't have an LRF ready for use. I used a prime R2F. I banked the LLD combo and stalled Basalt TH170WF, most people would be aiming for a flower patern when using LLD right? th!nk's results are probably more accurate because he stalls them both for optimal contact and has a LRF. Although, I had a launching partner to do the tests with me while he didn't. If you want I can do another set of tests where I stall both combos.
Jul. 16, 2011  5:31 PM
 
Yeah, that explains the huge win rate. Should have stalled both man. LLD would do better that way.

Mind adding all of the launch info in?
Jul. 16, 2011  5:36 PM
 
Sure thing. I'll re-test this in a bit. My testing partner (kid brother) is still asleep. I'll have results where I stall both. Hopefully it'll provide much more accurate results.
Jul. 16, 2011  5:42 PM
 
Very nice so far, guys. I know this might sound somewhat ridiculous, but I cannot wait to see this up on Scythe!
Jul. 16, 2011  5:45 PM
 
Hero has one, IIRC.

Something to put on the list. Any particular combo's?

I'm interested in seeing it against Meteo TR145EDS, or whatever the combo was, and the EWD counters with EDS instead. I'm still waiting for more EDS info, and I'm yet to get scythe. But, we wanted to cover the most important bases first Wink
Jul. 16, 2011  5:51 PM
 
I do have Scythe Kronos T125EDS, any combos you wanted this tested against?
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