So last week, I did extensive tests on Duo for it stamina capabilities. First order of business was of course, against Phantom.

Using standard method, (swapping parts, alternate launches, mirror parts, 20 rounds etc)

ALL mirror parts of (AD145, 230, 85 with WD, EDS, D) yield:

Phantom: 100% win rate
Duo: 0% win rate

** Phantom won the matches by a lot, >100 rotations left.

I was yet again surprised at the result, considering the results people have been getting over in the Customization Forum. I, then made a phone call to my bey buddy (Mtwo), whose test results have been reliable thus far.

He, on the other hand, have been getting the exact opposite results to mine, where Duo wins 100% against Phantom. We then started to get analytical, scrutinizing every possible bit that may have caused mold differences.

Shape, diameter, thickness are all identical, except for one thing: Weight.

His Duo: 42.30 grams
My Duo: 41.92 grams
His Phantom: 42.30 grams
My Phantom: 43.84 grams

**Weight scales are calibrated.

Notice that my Duo is considerably lighter than his, while my Phantom is also much heavier than his?

Which brings me to the matter at hand.

Are the results accurate enough, considering that there are huge differences in weights? There are no guarantees on which Duo or which Phantom we're going to face in a tournament scene.

How are we supposed to summarize results when there are too many variables?

This problem not only occurs in Duo and Phantom. It is all of 4D Metal Wheel in general. Sonokong's release has considerably heavier than TAKARA-TOMY for their 4Ds. One noticeable difference would be LDD, which overall weighs almost 2 grams heavier than TAKARA-TOMY. I have a TAKARA-TOMY VariAres that weighs a whopping 43.86 grams, etc etc.

It is also to be noted that while a bey is heavier, it does not necessarily mean that it will win all the time. Balance issues are also worth considering.

Cases like this have occurred in the past, namely with Basalt and Hell, although, most of which, can be isolated down to only a few rare incidents. It is a much bigger, common and noticeable problem for the case of 4D.

I realize that we need many more data to summarize an opinion that is agreed by all. Nonetheless, as it stands now, the results are NOT quite representative.

So his Duo and your Phantom are from SonoKong ? I do not think that SonoKong released Duo Uranus yet. Do you have other weights to show that SonoKong Metal Wheels are heavier than the TAKARA-TOMY versions ?

Also, are there any notable differences so that we could distinguish molds ?

I think this could just be a case like with Earth, where it is on the top-tier list, but we know that mold X does better in Stamina and mode Y performs best in Defense.


It is also suspicious that his two Metal Wheels weigh exactly the same, hah.

His weight listed was the one used for the testings.

His Phantom (TAKARA TOMY): 42.30 gr, 42.40 gr
His Phantom (Sonokong): 42.50 gr
His Duo (TAKARA TOMY): 42.30 gr

I have yet to see him in person to physically compare the beys, which I'll do this Sunday.

The Sonokong version being heavier is already a common knowledge, verified by many. At least over where I live, and it's not a myth either (unlike the previous Hasbro CW vs TAKARA-TOMY CW). Granted not all are heavier, rather lot of the heavy ones are found in Sonokong.

EDIT: An example of Sonokong LDD (Courtesy of Mtwo)

[Image: LDDSK.jpg]

My Duo weighs 42.11g, my Phantoms weigh (42.3, 42.29, 42.3) and my VariAres weighs 43.65 (All TakaraTomy).

The Duo weights are all within a reasonable range (.38g from lightest to heaviest) but Uwik's Phantom seems to be significantly heavier than anything else (1.54g heavier).

It could be that Uwik just has a "Super Phantom" (like some of the super heavy Basalts) but it would be nice to do some wider-scale weight gathering here to try and determine if this is a 1:1M thing, or whether other bladers are likely to encounter similar situations.

My Duo weighs 42.11g, my Phantoms weigh (42.3, 42.29, 42.3) and my VariAres weighs 43.65 (All TakaraTomy).

The Duo weights are all within a reasonable range (.38g from lightest to heaviest) but Uwik's Phantom seems to be significantly heavier than anything else (1.54g heavier).

It could be that Uwik just has a "Super Phantom" (like some of the super heavy Basalts) but it would be nice to do some wider-scale weight gathering here to try and determine if this is a 1:1M thing, or whether other bladers are likely to encounter similar situations.

Well said, Arupaeo. I sincerely wish that it is an isolated case, however, after encountering more and more heavy 4Ds from Sonokong, I'm starting to get skeptical.

EDIT: I believe Kei has encountered a case similar to this, but with Phantom vs Scythe, where his results differ completely from the actual battles he had. It could be the result of this weight issue. We know that 1 or 2 grams difference can swing the results in favor of the opposite.

Should we not open this up to the general public for them to post their weights, then, to get a better sense of the pandemia surrounding this issue?

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Some manner of Octopus.

Should we not open this up to the general public for them to post their weights, then, to get a better sense of the pandemia surrounding this issue?

It is of course within your discretion. Whichever is best.

I'm not entirely sure myself, to be honest. Kind of fishing for opinions about it - do we want to test the actual impacts of these weight differences before seeing how many there are, or find out how big the problem is first?

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Some manner of Octopus.

The best summary so far would be to 'assume' the following:

Duo vs Phantom (in term of stamina): Duo would win if it's less than 0.5 gr difference, else, Phantom takes the cake.

Which pretty much means nothing, since we don't always have the luxury of finding out the weight of the opponent's wheel.

This is a very small sample for the potential problems at hand, once we discuss other 4D wheels.

Is it evident that it is present in all wheels, or just LDD, Duo, Phantom, and Vari? Beat, Blitz, etc. are also worth investigating.

This is going to make updating wiki weights a pain... unless we just tack a "your weight may vary slightly" disclaimer on the articles...

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Some manner of Octopus.

To my knowledge, yes, pretty much all are evident to some degree. Having said that, it's always more noticeable for defense/stamina types. Attack types are not quite affected as much, as they basically just smash the others.

The problem with stamina / defense types is the rise in the difficulty level to defeat. It is definitely not linear to the weight increase, it's rather exponential. 48-49 grams Basalt is MUCH MUCH harder to defeat than the average 47 grams. So much for tier-ing the meta game, since stamina and defense types are still ever so present.

As for your second paragraph, Arupaeo is cooking up something nice to remedy the issue.

As for opening a new, public topic, it would help if you could determine whether there is a noticeable, physical difference, or if you can even just establish that the difference is always SonoKong.

Although the topic is about 4D, I think including Basalt would be relevant as well as it was the first few to show signs of varying weight.

Basalts

Spoiler (Click to View)

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FYI, I even had a 45 gram one once. Lost it though. Also, all are TT.

Although the topic is about 4D, I think including Basalt would be relevant as well as it was the first few to show signs of varying weight.

Basalts

Spoiler (Click to View)

[Image: 20111208232431.jpg]

[Image: 20111208232445.jpg]

[Image: 20111208232457.jpg]

[Image: 20111208232511.jpg]

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FYI, I even had a 45 gram one once. Lost it though. Also, all are TT.

Is there any performance difference though.

Yes.

Heavier parts usually perform better. Having that 1 gram+ advantage would help.

I believe the Japanese has MWs which are up to 49 grams for Basalt. If you compare it to the lowest, which is 46 odd (not the one in my pic), thats a 3 gram advantage, which is almost the weight of a Metal Face.

Point being, result inconsistency is also with the MW at fault. I believe aggressive Basalt BD145 CS combos are not solely due to the CS but the MW being a factor as well.

But do you have results to show inconsistency ?

To my knowledge, yes, pretty much all are evident to some degree. Having said that, it's always more noticeable for defense/stamina types. Attack types are not quite affected as much, as they basically just smash the others.

The problem with stamina / defense types is the rise in the difficulty level to defeat. It is definitely not linear to the weight increase, it's rather exponential. 48-49 grams Basalt is MUCH MUCH harder to defeat than the average 47 grams. So much for tier-ing the meta game, since stamina and defense types are still ever so present.

As for your second paragraph, Arupaeo is cooking up something nice to remedy the issue.

I didn't expect it'd have too much effect on Attackers, but a lot of current attack combos also depend very heavily on weight in order to succeed against heavy Phantom/Scythe Stamina hybrids and any Defense combos.

Well, technically, even the lightest Basalt will outperform Libra and Earth, so it doesn't completely wreck tiering, just makes it a bit more complicated. It is yet another reason we cannot categorize a tier list in order of performance value, but rather simply have basic tiers wherein the top parts fit regardless of performance within the tier.

This is a vexing issue nevertheless, however. It almost seems to create an unfair advantage in tournament situations that - unfortunately - would be too troublesome to try and weed out, unless we want to go through the trouble of weighing everyone's MWs before the match, which just seems... well, too troublesome.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Whoa Nelly! I wouldn't advocate for the weighing of parts at tournaments either. (that = recipe for disaster)

At the end of the day, there will always be manufacturing variation and sample to sample variation. On some days the casting process gets "out of control" (meaning that part tolerances are exceeded in one direction or another) and that is just the way the ball bounces. I would expect that what controls there are on the wheel casting line has to do specifically with shape - not weight.

Basically I agree with Hazel's final statement. In my own words, while weights are an interesting point from both a tier standpoint and from a competitive match-up standpoint, I don't think that this is an area that we should try to control in competitive play.

It also makes testing even less credible, however...

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Some manner of Octopus.

For tests, of course it makes a difference, but I have no idea how it would create an unfair advantage in a tournament situation ... If it becomes clear that SonoKong 4D Metal Wheels are heavier, then that is it, everybody knows what to expect.

If the weights aren't varying consistently(which they do not seem to be - and even TT experiences the extreme variations, as you will notice above), it does provide advantages and disadvantages. Extremely heavy Basalts are MUCH harder to stop than the "normal" ones that weigh what we thought they "should" weigh.

If it cannot be calculated and compensated for, that is what I would consider an unfair advantage - and since the only way to tell what weight part is in your box is to weigh all of the boxes against one another before opening them(which is impractical at best, and would make you look like a loon), there's not even any way to be sure of what kind of Basalt you're getting until you weigh it!

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Some manner of Octopus.

For tests, of course it makes a difference, but I have no idea how it would create an unfair advantage in a tournament situation ... If it becomes clear that SonoKong 4D Metal Wheels are heavier, then that is it, everybody knows what to expect.

I'm assuming that in this case, "mirror matches" (Or matches close to it) are what get affected. I don't know if those still happen often though. But that's just my 3rd person perspective.

No, it's more than mirror matches. The reputation of the heavier, more "perfect" Basalts is quite evident, as it is much harder to stop them by any means. I assume similar would be true of Death, Duo, and Phantom.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Point being, result inconsistency is also with the MW at fault. I believe aggressive Basalt BD145 CS combos are not solely due to the CS but the MW being a factor as well.

Yes, Metal Wheels play an important role in customization. Inconsistencies within it reflects on the performance. Singaporeans have always favored Basalt BD145 CS combos, mainly for the added defensive bonus, since they face lots of attack types due to the 3-point system. Indonesians favor Basalt 230 CS for the added stamina bonus, since we do not use the 3-point system, where less attackers are found. Either way, both regions favor Basalt heavily. We do have some freaky ones. In our club, emily2000 uses an upper 48 gram (almost 49 gram) Basalt, where she's won 3 Golds, 2 Silvers, 1 Bronze in Official WBO Tournaments.

For tests, of course it makes a difference, but I have no idea how it would create an unfair advantage in a tournament situation ... If it becomes clear that SonoKong 4D Metal Wheels are heavier, then that is it, everybody knows what to expect.

1. Yes, it does make a big difference in a tournament situation. There used to be a Japanese expat kid who used to frequent my local toyshop for freeplays. He had a 49 gram Basalt, and it was 'officialized' by WBBA Japan, at least that is the impression that I got. It had a signature from a marker on the back of the MW, along with the number "四十九" . I freeplayed him once where I won 5-0, before he put away his regular Basalt, and switched to his Super Basalt, which then I lost 2-8.

2. The issue is not as black and white as TAKARA-TOMY vs SonoKong. It occurs within TAKARA-TOMY brand also. Granted, SonoKong is 'known' to have more heavy ones for 4D beys than TAKARA-TOMY. However, the difference in weight is undetermined. It ranges from a mere 0.1 grams - 2 grams.

If it cannot be calculated and compensated for, that is what I would consider an unfair advantage - and since the only way to tell what weight part is in your box is to weigh all of the boxes against one another before opening them(which is impractical at best, and would make you look like a loon), there's not even any way to be sure of what kind of Basalt you're getting until you weigh it!

This is true. Some people (myself included) bring a weight scale when buying beys, although not practiced by many, it's still a common sight.

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I guess my creating this thread is to just put it out in the open that cases like this actually have occurred in the past, and is becoming more problematic with the release of 4Ds. It is the 'grain of salt' that has been mentioned a few times.

People should refrain from harsh comments when results are the opposites of their own. "You suck at it! You're doing it wrong, I can defeat it 100% EVERYTIME" attitude is getting old really fast.

But do you have results to show inconsistency ?

Well, technically, even the lightest Basalt will outperform Libra and Earth, so it doesn't completely wreck tiering, just makes it a bit more complicated. It is yet another reason we cannot categorize a tier list in order of performance value, but rather simply have basic tiers wherein the top parts fit regardless of performance within the tier.

Hazel: Agreed.

Kai-V:
A Basalt is still a Basalt. We already know its worth hence I do not see the point in reproducing results. Its just a matter of how quickly the Basalt kills off the opponent and how =|. Hazel sorta summarise it already.

Unless you meant mirror matches. Though its sorta obvious which one would be winning.

Method of killing doesnt apply to WBO matches. However WBBA ones = 2 points for KO. So technically, its gonna affect a WBBA based tournament more.

For tests, of course it makes a difference, but I have no idea how it would create an unfair advantage in a tournament situation ... If it becomes clear that SonoKong 4D Metal Wheels are heavier, then that is it, everybody knows what to expect.

Like Uwik said, not restricted towards any brand. Its the whole spectrum. I cant remember when but I do briefly recall a particular batch of Basalt Hologiums were sought after at one point of time. Should be the pre release.

If it cannot be calculated and compensated for, that is what I would consider an unfair advantage - and since the only way to tell what weight part is in your box is to weigh all of the boxes against one another before opening them(which is impractical at best, and would make you look like a loon), there's not even any way to be sure of what kind of Basalt you're getting until you weigh it!

Every time I get the opportunity I would do that.
So much that WBBA or toy promoters would just give me the whole stack to weigh.
But there are hits and misses. Sometimes its the cardboard which gives it more weight not the Basalt inside (in the packaging)

Whoa Nelly! I wouldn't advocate for the weighing of parts at tournaments either. (that = recipe for disaster)

At the end of the day, there will always be manufacturing variation and sample to sample variation. On some days the casting process gets "out of control" (meaning that part tolerances are exceeded in one direction or another) and that is just the way the ball bounces. I would expect that what controls there are on the wheel casting line has to do specifically with shape - not weight.

Basically I agree with Hazel's final statement. In my own words, while weights are an interesting point from both a tier standpoint and from a competitive match-up standpoint, I don't think that this is an area that we should try to control in competitive play.

We shouldnt let ourselves head to that direction (parts weighing in tournament). Whatever parts we have are at our sole discretion. As long as its original, not deformed not illegally modified it should be alright. Unless you have one with an uncut piece. That should not be allowed.

I'm assuming that in this case, "mirror matches" (Or matches close to it) are what get affected. I don't know if those still happen often though. But that's just my 3rd person perspective.

You should inquire Uwik about emily's Basalt230CS. I believe, the Singapore representatives would agree with me that its a hax combo. A few died under the combo. Literally.

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The reason why it affects Basalt so much is that, its weight distribution is already off to begin with. Having something with weight and possibly, better balance would definitely be an advantage.

The issue with weights have been present throughout the whole MFB lineup. Just that, the weight difference is more prominent from Maximum ~ 4D series.