World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations

TH170 vs 230

Oct. 12, 2011  10:17 PM
 
Intro:
I've opened this discussion also in the public section,now i want to know something by Advanced Users!
Also,i want to discuss this because i read in the Flame Byxis 230 WD article that 230's been outclassed by TH170.
Is it really correct?

Main discussion:
I would focus the discussion on TH170 and 230 Tracks.
Wich is in your opinion the best Track in terms of Defense\Stamina?
I don't want opinions about their versatility,of course. It's quite clear that TH170 is more versatile than 230; only n00bs don't know this.

To be clear,i don't want to read posts based on TH170 vs 230,but TH170 against tracks and 230 against tracks.
I wrote TH170 vs 230 in the title to put in evidence that it's a discussion based on testing both tracks against other tracks and discuss about results.
Thanks!
Oct. 12, 2011  11:44 PM
 
I don't have TH170, but there is one thing I can say without even needing to have it:

You don't want versatility, but isn't versatility what makes parts good or better than other parts? Sort of why you guys like Gravity?

Plus, versatility isn't only TH170 vs 230, so I think it'd be best and most accurate to have that included as well.

Like I said, I don't have it, but surely TH170 (220 height) can't be terribly worse than 230? Then I think it brings this back to the versatility thing, so I think versatility is a huge factor, especially since it's a triple height change. And I mean versatility against heights other than 230.
Oct. 13, 2011  12:16 AM
 
One thing to consider (for us who don't own the part) CH145 sucks at everything compared to 145.
Oct. 15, 2011  9:58 PM
 
(Oct. 12, 2011  11:44 PM)Shabalabadoo Wrote: I don't have TH170, but there is one thing I can say without even needing to have it:

You don't want versatility, but isn't versatility what makes parts good or better than other parts? Sort of why you guys like Gravity?

Plus, versatility isn't only TH170 vs 230, so I think it'd be best and most accurate to have that included as well.

Like I said, I don't have it, but surely TH170 (220 height) can't be terribly worse than 230? Then I think it brings this back to the versatility thing, so I think versatility is a huge factor, especially since it's a triple height change. And I mean versatility against heights other than 230.
Yes Shaba,but versatility is good only when it really works.
I mean,if i can defeat a 230 height,i can defeat at the same time also a 220.
195 doesn't give good results in our MG.
The only interesting height is 170; so can we talk of versatility when only one height on three works "good" ?
We like Gravity because its versatility make the difference during the matches.
I don't think the same of TH170 in our MG!
Also,i still prefer 230 due to its smooth (?) surface, that makes this track better; in my opinion,of course.
Oct. 16, 2011  1:06 AM
 
220 can defeat 230, and that, in combination with it's versatility is all there really is to it. TH170 is better in almost all situations.
Oct. 16, 2011  9:06 AM
 
Also a 145 can defeat a 230.
145 is better of 230 for this reason .-. ?

If a 145 can defeat a 220 and a 230,wich is the difference?
The difference is that you can change three height during the match?
Useless against a 145.
The only interesting height is 170,that is something like F : D,with the difference that you can choose the bottom. But it's not so problematic.

If you put TH170 on that level because at 220 can defeat 230,also 145 must be added.
Wich are the situations are you talking about?
Oct. 16, 2011  10:19 AM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  9:06 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Also a 145 can defeat a 230.
145 is better of 230 for this reason .-. ?

If a 145 can defeat a 220 and a 230,wich is the difference?
The difference is that you can change three height during the match?
Useless against a 145.
The only interesting height is 170,that is something like F : D,with the difference that you can choose the bottom. But it's not so problematic.

If you put TH170 on that level because at 220 can defeat 230,also 145 must be added.
Wich are the situations are you talking about?

Basically, Galaxy, what he's saying is that, while 230 is a fantastic height, 220 is proficient in exactly the same ways, while also providing the functionality of Height Change.

The differences between them are only really evident in the shape of the track, and while that may prove key in some scenarios, it's not really enough of them to choose 230 in general.

If you walk into a Tournament with a TH170 on your Basalt, you're going to have a better chance of winning than with a 230. Height change provides a more competitive edge than a fixed height with fixed counters.
Oct. 16, 2011  12:06 PM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  10:19 AM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 16, 2011  9:06 AM)Galaxy Wrote: Also a 145 can defeat a 230.
145 is better of 230 for this reason .-. ?

If a 145 can defeat a 220 and a 230,wich is the difference?
The difference is that you can change three height during the match?
Useless against a 145.
The only interesting height is 170,that is something like F : D,with the difference that you can choose the bottom. But it's not so problematic.

If you put TH170 on that level because at 220 can defeat 230,also 145 must be added.
Wich are the situations are you talking about?

Basically, Galaxy, what he's saying is that, while 230 is a fantastic height, 220 is proficient in exactly the same ways, while also providing the functionality of Height Change.

The differences between them are only really evident in the shape of the track, and while that may prove key in some scenarios, it's not really enough of them to choose 230 in general.

If you walk into a Tournament with a TH170 on your Basalt, you're going to have a better chance of winning than with a 230. Height change provides a more competitive edge than a fixed height with fixed counters.


I don't agree,sorry :\
This versatility (that doesn't work very well as someone want to say) doesn't mean that 230's been outclassed by TH170.
I don't agree also with the final section of your discussion.
Why in a Tournament Basalt TH170 give to me high chances to win than Basalt 230?
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170 and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230.
The 220 can defeat 230? Also a 145 can do,but i've never heard that someone consider 230 worst than 145.
Oct. 16, 2011  1:59 PM
 
It doesn't matter if TH170 can beat 230 in a one way shot, or 220, or 195, or 145. The fact of the matter is that TH170 has fewer reliable counters than 230, because it is a part capable of changing its own dynamics on the fly.

No part is entirely without use. If the idea of this discussion is to say 230 is completely useless because of TH170, that is incorrect - it DOES have its uses. However, as I said before, you have a better chance of winning in a tournament situation if you are capable of readily altering the height of your track to suit your opponent, and thereby, TH170 provides an obvious benefit in that scenario.

If you have to pick one track between the two, and you pick 230, you're just being inefficient.
Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM
 
Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?
Oct. 16, 2011  2:16 PM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

That's irrelevant, though. Anything but those combos is up in the air. Tournaments aren't full of people using the best possible combo, let alone combos specifically made to counter everyone else's - that's a physical impossibility.

When it comes right down to it, if you have to select ONE track, between the two, you should ALWAYS pick the one with more options on its side.

The best decision is always the decision that affords you more options.
Oct. 16, 2011  2:39 PM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:16 PM)Hazel Wrote:
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

That's irrelevant, though. Anything but those combos is up in the air. Tournaments aren't full of people using the best possible combo, let alone combos specifically made to counter everyone else's - that's a physical impossibility.

When it comes right down to it, if you have to select ONE track, between the two, you should ALWAYS pick the one with more options on its side.

The best decision is always the decision that affords you more options.

Sorry,but i don't think that no one own a track that is a 145 or a 90\100;all of them come with common Beys. Is quite unreal,and if it's true there's no competitive game in international tournaments. :\
Not to be offensive,i'm going to ask this to understand the situation: I have to think that international tournaments are full of n00bs? :\
If no one have\use any 145,it is as i think!
And,if i've understood good what you were saying,i wasn't talking about specific combos to counter others,i was talking of generic matches. In fact,i was doing examples of generic matches.
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?
Also,i'm not discussing on what decision is the best.
What i'm trying to say is,230's been outclassed by TH170?
This question can only be answered thinking on this:
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?
Oct. 16, 2011  2:56 PM
 
You're making extremely general statements and then applying them on a broad spectrum as if they're concrete, and that's just not how technical observation works. Yes, a tournament will have people using 100/145/whatever track, but not ALL of them will be using combos that can specifically counter TH170 and 230. It's absolutely ludicrous to think that they would. Not everyone attending a tournament is a Beyblade pro, not everyone has access to the right parts, and some people don't even care about being super competitive.

My statement was intended to display that in a tournament situation, if you choose TH170, you have a higher chance of winning, because of the ability to change heights in the event that you do encounter a different height profile than usual.

In a matter of "outclassing", it's just not logical - the tracks are shaped differently. They perform differently because of this. If they were exactly the same shape and TH170 could still change heights, it WOULD outclass it, but it's not the same shape at all - so the parts are both still valuable. This is like asking if GB145 outclasses R145 because it's better at handling specific shapes - the question makes no sense.

However, as I have said twice now, a more competitively-minded Blader will always pick the track that affords them more options.

(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

This question is just useless. It serves no purpose to answer it, because it's more about the MW sitting on each track than the track itself. MF VariAres CH120RF will bring down MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170/195/220 and 230 regardless, but that's just Vari. Some other MWs might not handle the shape of TH170 very well, or might not handle the shape of 230 very well - you simply cannot ask such a general question and expect to glean any useful information from it.

TH170 does not "outclass" 230, plain and simple. However, it IS a better part for a competitive-minded player to choose, if they're intending to use a high-profile track, just for options.
Oct. 16, 2011  3:25 PM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:56 PM)Hazel Wrote: You're making extremely general statements and then applying them on a broad spectrum as if they're concrete, and that's just not how technical observation works. Yes, a tournament will have people using 100/145/whatever track, but not ALL of them will be using combos that can specifically counter TH170 and 230. It's absolutely ludicrous to think that they would. Not everyone attending a tournament is a Beyblade pro, not everyone has access to the right parts, and some people don't even care about being super competitive.

My statement was intended to display that in a tournament situation, if you choose TH170, you have a higher chance of winning, because of the ability to change heights in the event that you do encounter a different height profile than usual.

In a matter of "outclassing", it's just not logical - the tracks are shaped differently. They perform differently because of this. If they were exactly the same shape and TH170 could still change heights, it WOULD outclass it, but it's not the same shape at all - so the parts are both still valuable. This is like asking if GB145 outclasses R145 because it's better at handling specific shapes - the question makes no sense.

However, as I have said twice now, a more competitively-minded Blader will always pick the track that affords them more options.

(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

This question is just useless. It serves no purpose to answer it, because it's more about the MW sitting on each track than the track itself. MF VariAres CH120RF will bring down MF-H Basalt Kerbecs TH170/195/220 and 230 regardless, but that's just Vari. Some other MWs might not handle the shape of TH170 very well, or might not handle the shape of 230 very well - you simply cannot ask such a general question and expect to glean any useful information from it.

TH170 does not "outclass" 230, plain and simple. However, it IS a better part for a competitive-minded player to choose, if they're intending to use a high-profile track, just for options.
Good point,Hazel.
You said what i want to hear!
230 and TH170 are different,so TH170 doesen't outclass 230.
I opened this discussion because i read on Flame Byxis' article in BeyWiki that 230's been outclassed by TH170. And it's not true in my opinion,and i think also in your!
Beywiki should have more objective sentences. "230's been outclassed by TH170" is too much subjective and not true,in my opinion. They are different and two different things can't be compared,of course! At the same time both of them have similar proprieties (to be hight tracks,so the first thing that a Blader start to think is wich is the best between them). For this reason in the OP of this discussion i didn't ask to do some VS between TH170 and 230,but some VS between some tracks against TH170 and 230. So,i'm not comparing them ,i'm comparing their functions.


Also,sorry,i didn't explain well what i would say with that questions.
I would say: on that range of tracks with the same MW you'll have more or less the same results. Then,of course,specific results will depend on the launch,MW,bottom,etc.. . But there are some objective results as you can see.
That's what i was trying to say!


Returning to a point of your discussion: wich is the best choice for a tournament,it's not in discussion. But it doesen't make a track outclassed.
Because if,as you said, you play against VariAres CH120 RF that can defeat Basalt 230 CS,it will defeat also the same combo with TH170. That's what i was trying to say.

Finally,we definetely think the same think: TH170 doesn't outclass 230 Smile
Oct. 16, 2011  3:30 PM
 
Glad to see we got over the misunderstanding, then. Smile

However, I'm not entirely certain the exact specifics of 230's shape versus TH220's shape, so I cannot cite specific examples of what can bring down 230 but not 220, or vice versa, due to their shape. But, it stands to reason that since they are such radically different track designs, there would be obvious flaws and strengths in each one that the other would not posess.
Oct. 16, 2011  3:41 PM
 
Wink

So do you think that:
Flame Byxis 230WD contains very useful parts. When released, 230 silenced a great majority of previously dominant Stamina, Defense and Attack combos. While it is now outclassed by TH170, 230 is a more easily found alternative that still retains one of the most important elements of TH170; its height. Flame Byxis also comes with WD, a top-tier Stamina Bottom. Every Blader should at least own one of this Beyblade.

is not correct and it must be removed from the "Overall"?
Oct. 16, 2011  3:43 PM
 
It should be changed to something more like "While TH170 is generally preferred, 230 is a more easily found alternative that still retains one of the most important elements of TH170; its height, while also having a unique shape." in order to contain more accuracy and less ambiguous wording, in my opinion.
Oct. 16, 2011  3:52 PM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  3:43 PM)Hazel Wrote: It should be changed to something more like "While TH170 is generally preferred, 230 is a more easily found alternative that still retains one of the most important elements of TH170; its height, while also having a unique shape." in order to contain more accuracy and less ambiguous wording, in my opinion.

Exactly what i think in my language Tongue_out
Let see what others think ^^
Oct. 17, 2011  1:42 AM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

You can't just generalize like this, Galaxy. 145-height Beyblades will not always defeat 220/230-height Beyblades. And you forgot to mention that in many cases, 220 will defeat 230. And also, against an Attacker, would you rather use 230 over 170/195?

It is for reasons like this that I feel that 230 has been completely outclassed by TH170. In what situations do you feel that 230 would be the superior choice, Galaxy?
Oct. 17, 2011  7:44 PM
 
(Oct. 17, 2011  1:42 AM)Kei Wrote:
(Oct. 16, 2011  2:09 PM)Galaxy Wrote: Hazel,be concrete. I mean, can you negate this:
If you play against 85\90\100 you'll win both with TH170(195\220) and 230.
If you play against CH(120\145)\145 you'll lose both with TH170 and 230
?

You can't just generalize like this, Galaxy. 145-height Beyblades will not always defeat 220/230-height Beyblades. And you forgot to mention that in many cases, 220 will defeat 230. And also, against an Attacker, would you rather use 230 over 170/195?

It is for reasons like this that I feel that 230 has been completely outclassed by TH170. In what situations do you feel that 230 would be the superior choice, Galaxy?

I'm not generalizing,and i'm not saying that 230 is a superior choice >.>

I'm only saying that no one of them outclass the other!
If you play one between TH170\230 and your opponent 85\90 you'll win,and it won't depend on MW or others,it will depend just for the Track that will be played. So both of them are equal in this situation.

If you'll play something like Basalt 230\TH170 CS and your opponent LDD\Vari CH120(145)\R145 RF [and i've to test against Gravity BD145 RF; if Gravity wins against Basalt 230 - i've personally tested it - i really don't know why it can't win against 170\195\220,that are lower than 230..)] you'll lose.

Now,ItaMG is composed by 4 aggressive combos,2 defensive combos,1 for stamina and 1 combined.
Now,against low tracks, TH170 and 230 will win in the same way; from 2 (but i 'm really confident in Gravity using mere logic) of 4 Attack combos i have 50% of winning matches against both TH170 and 230 (i can also have the 75% of win percentage putting Gravity as winner). Fang won't win nor against TH170 and 230. Stamina doesn't have a role in this story,so i don't have to do comparision with this category.

Now,where TH170 outclass 230,or viceversa?
Then if you want to use more matches for example,free to do it,of course. But then you'll fall in a generic discussion,because there are a lot of components. All combos have autoloss or difficult specific matches; but it's not a problem that must be discussed in my opinion,because as you said,we will talk in a too much general way!


EDIT: Ok,220 will defeat 230. But is this single match a strong reason to say that 230's been outclassed by 230?
Oct. 17, 2011  8:51 PM
 
I'll just jump in and say that the reason you could have a tough time with 170/195 than with 220 or 230 is because it is very possible that for certain attack wheels that contact difference could greatly hinder it's smash attack.
Also, if you don't have TH170 why are you arguing so vigorously on something you have little to no experience with?
Oct. 17, 2011  9:05 PM
 
(Oct. 17, 2011  8:51 PM)Dan Wrote: I'll just jump in and say that the reason you could have a tough time with 170/195 than with 220 or 230 is because it is very possible that for certain attack wheels that contact difference could greatly hinder it's smash attack.
Also, if you don't have TH170 why are you arguing so vigorously on something you have little to no experience with?

I've got it ç_ç. I've got all the Bey! Both me and NikoDefenseITA (if i remember good is this his username xD),he's my friend and lives near to my home!
So we've tested by ourself with our TH170 and our 230.

Also,talking about TH170\195 we've tested that heights,and yes apparently that heights gave us some strange results.
Then we've tought that those results were made only because a problem of launch position.
I mean, if you can,please,launch your TH170-195 combo with a defensive launch,then launch your Attack combo in two ways:

A sliding launching your Bey far form the wall of the stadium.
A sliding shoot made launching your Bey closest to a wall of the attack stadium.

Try both of these launches at full power,and please give the maximum inclination to your sliding shoots; do them as if you would launch the bey in your stomach,it's quite ridicolous,but i'm serious!
Oct. 18, 2011  7:59 AM
 
Even if you don't take the height changes into consideration, TH220 outclasses 230 because it serves the same purpose as 230, but also beats 230.
Oct. 19, 2011  2:20 AM
 
(Oct. 16, 2011  1:06 AM)Kei Wrote: 220 can defeat 230, and that, in combination with it's versatility is all there really is to it. TH170 is better in almost all situations.

I find that this is true in strict mirror matches only. Different tips alone are enough to produce different results.

(Oct. 16, 2011  2:56 PM)Hazel Wrote: ...

My statement was intended to display that in a tournament situation, if you choose TH170, you have a higher chance of winning, because of the ability to change heights in the event that you do encounter a different height profile than usual.

...

However, as I have said twice now, a more competitively-minded Blader will always pick the track that affords them more options.

In general I agree with the overall versatility argument, and while competitively-minded bladers
certainly appreciate having this option, we do not always select TH170 over 230.
Oct. 19, 2011  2:24 AM
 
I am still curious to see if anyone's got anything to say about the impact of the differences in shape, which are the only thing preventing "outclassing", in my mind. TH220 and 230 are extremely different in shape, and that absolutely has to have some meaningful effect on performances, comparatively.

I am not personally aware of them, but someone here ought to be - and it's not really getting any mention in this discussion. If the two parts' shapes do have different effects, and 230's is not entirely negative in comparison, then there is no logical basis for claiming 230 is "outclassed", as outclassing is an act of placing something in a status of having absolutely no use. If the shape has ANY advantages over TH170, it is not outclassed, in my opinion.
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