Hello

I'm proposing having an additional beypoints system for round robin finals. Previously when brought up I was told by Kei that having Round Robin Finals and Deck Format Finals in the same Beypoints system wouldn't work as they'd invalidate the rankings to a certain extent which I understand. The only realistic solution to this is to have two separate systems. I never felt there was anything wrong with Round Robin Finals. In addition to this single elimination is quite harsh and you don't get to face all the finalists which is a bit disappointing. Also I feel it's a bit draconian to essentially force people to play deck format even if they don't want to. How many people would be in support of this?

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@[Kei] Mind commenting please?

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I'm proposing having an additional beypoints system for round robin finals. Previously when brought up I was told by Kei that having Round Robin Finals and Deck Format Finals in the same Beypoints system wouldn't work as they'd invalidate the rankings to a certain extent which I understand. The only realistic solution to this is to have two separate systems. I never felt there was anything wrong with Round Robin Finals. In addition to this single elimination is quite harsh and you don't get to face all the finalists which is a bit disappointing. Also I feel it's a bit draconian to essentially force people to play deck format even if they don't want to. How many people would be in support of this?

Hey Ultra,

Thanks a lot for posting your suggestion. I understand your desire for round robin finals, but I disagree.

1. An additional BeyPoints System for a potential Round Robin Finals-based tournaments is not an option. It would fracture our player base unnecessarily, and also over-complicate things. It is more meaningful to maintain a unified, single ranking for each ranked format.

It is important to us to maintain consistency worldwide in terms of how our events are won and lost. If everyone is playing with the same rules, it becomes easier to judge the relative skill of players around the world.

2. Since introduced, Deck Format has been almost universally enjoyed by everyone. Bey Brad posted this thread initially proposing the idea and received very positive feedback, and then when we decided to move forward with running actual experimental events for months in order to iron out the details of the format and to make sure it works, was competitive, and was fun, we posted this thread. It had 145 replies and contained in depth discussion about the merits and rules we were going to use for the format. It was a chance for the public to influence the direction we took. Because the feedback we received was generally all positive–both online and in the test events we ran–we decided to move forward with the implementation of Deck Format. If we had received more justified negative feedback, we would have certainly re-considered our position. But we didn't.

I believe you are one of the only people who has expressed complete opposition to it, and unfortunately, we have to run with what we feel is best for the entire community based on our own experience and their feedback. It also seems like not many people share in your view given the lack of responses in support so far ...

3. While there is nothing necessarily "wrong" with round robin finals, there is several issues:
- It takes much longer to complete.
- Given the slightly more unpredictable nature of regular best 3/5 battles in the first stage of our events, a format like Round Robin or Swiss makes great sense there because it affords you those second chances in case you do make a mistake, get unlucky, or run into an opponent you've never battled before. Chance is a huge part of Beyblade as well, so someone shouldn't be eliminated at this stage of an event for having one of these things happen to them. It's fair.
- The issue arises however when you think about using that format in the finals. There's nothing wrong with this format, but it inherently involves less skill and knowledge than Deck Format given the fact that you have to pick one Beyblade and are stuck with it afterwards. In Deck Format, you're stuck with your Deck, but you have more agency in terms of the decisions you make and how the battle ultimately plays out. It's much more dynamic for both players. In our first stage, our regular battles are fine because they do certainly involve some skill, but it becomes more about the prediction and the unknown than Deck Format, which is predicated on knowledge and certainties to a higher degree.

4. Single Elimination is indeed harsh, but we strongly believe that a final stage which demands a greater level of skill and knowledge coupled with a higher amount of danger and pressure (given the nature of single elimination) is appropriate for the best Bladers who are attempting to win a tournament. Winning a tournament shouldn't be easy. When you make it to the finals, there should be no second chances; the best emerge as the best, and the rest unfortunately are eliminated. That's competition. But even so, with Deck Format you are afforded "second chances" given the longer nature of the battles and your ability to respond to changing circumstances.

I understand and share your desire to play everyone in a tournament too, but that just isn't how tournaments in most competitive games and sports work. Many use something like round robin for the first stage, but the finals often become single elimination because at some point ... you just have to draw the line. The tournament has to end at some point, and putting pressure on the best participants by making it single elimination is entirely appropriate at this stage.

I'd love if we could do our entire tournaments as all Deck Format (and we did try this during our experimental phase), but it just takes too long, just like round robin finals do. Round robin finals also would never contain eight participants as that would literally become the size of another first stage right player event. Our current format allows eight players the opportunity to advance to the finals.

6. Deck Format–albeit with a different ruleset–is also standard for TAKARA-TOMY events, usually their finals. There's a reason for this, and it's likely similar to our reasoning. And actually, our tournaments are already much longer than most TT events since we don't run single elimination for the first stage like they do.

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I'm proposing having an additional beypoints system for round robin finals. Previously when brought up I was told by Kei that having Round Robin Finals and Deck Format Finals in the same Beypoints system wouldn't work as they'd invalidate the rankings to a certain extent which I understand. The only realistic solution to this is to have two separate systems. I never felt there was anything wrong with Round Robin Finals. In addition to this single elimination is quite harsh and you don't get to face all the finalists which is a bit disappointing. Also I feel it's a bit draconian to essentially force people to play deck format even if they don't want to. How many people would be in support of this?

Hey Ultra,

Thanks a lot for posting your suggestion. I understand your desire for round robin finals, but I disagree.

1. An additional BeyPoints System for a potential Round Robin Finals-based tournaments is not an option. It would fracture our player base unnecessarily, and also over-complicate things. It is more meaningful to maintain a unified, single ranking for each ranked format.

It is important to us to maintain consistency worldwide in terms of how our events are won and lost. If everyone is playing with the same rules, it becomes easier to judge the relative skill of players around the world.

2. Since introduced, Deck Format has been almost universally enjoyed by everyone. Bey Brad posted this thread initially proposing the idea and received very positive feedback, and then when we decided to move forward with running actual experimental events for months in order to iron out the details of the format and to make sure it works, was competitive, and was fun, we posted this thread. It had 145 replies and contained in depth discussion about the merits and rules we were going to use for the format. It was a chance for the public to influence the direction we took. Because the feedback we received was generally all positive–both online and in the test events we ran–we decided to move forward with the implementation of Deck Format. If we had received more justified negative feedback, we would have certainly re-considered our position. But we didn't.

I believe you are one of the only people who has expressed complete opposition to it, and unfortunately, we have to run with what we feel is best for the entire community based on our own experience and their feedback. It also seems like not many people share in your view given the lack of responses in support so far ...

3. While there is nothing necessarily "wrong" with round robin finals, there is several issues:
- It takes much longer to complete.
- Given the slightly more unpredictable nature of regular best 3/5 battles in the first stage of our events, a format like Round Robin or Swiss makes great sense there because it affords you those second chances in case you do make a mistake, get unlucky, or run into an opponent you've never battled before. Chance is a huge part of Beyblade as well, so someone shouldn't be eliminated at this stage of an event for having one of these things happen to them. It's fair.
- The issue arises however when you think about using that format in the finals. There's nothing wrong with this format, but it inherently involves less skill and knowledge than Deck Format given the fact that you have to pick one Beyblade and are stuck with it afterwards. In Deck Format, you're stuck with your Deck, but you have more agency in terms of the decisions you make and how the battle ultimately plays out. It's much more dynamic for both players. In our first stage, our regular battles are fine because they do certainly involve some skill, but it becomes more about the prediction and the unknown than Deck Format, which is predicated on knowledge and certainties to a higher degree.

4. Single Elimination is indeed harsh, but we strongly believe that a final stage which demands a greater level of skill and knowledge coupled with a higher amount of danger and pressure (given the nature of single elimination) is appropriate for the best Bladers who are attempting to win a tournament. Winning a tournament shouldn't be easy. When you make it to the finals, there should be no second chances; the best emerge as the best, and the rest unfortunately are eliminated. That's competition. But even so, with Deck Format you are afforded "second chances" given the longer nature of the battles and your ability to respond to changing circumstances.

I understand and share your desire to play everyone in a tournament too, but that just isn't how tournaments in most competitive games and sports work. Many use something like round robin for the first stage, but the finals often become single elimination because at some point ... you just have to draw the line. The tournament has to end at some point, and putting pressure on the best participants by making it single elimination is entirely appropriate at this stage.

I'd love if we could do our entire tournaments as all Deck Format (and we did try this during our experimental phase), but it just takes too long, just like round robin finals do. Round robin finals also would never contain eight participants as that would literally become the size of another first stage right player event. Our current format allows eight players the opportunity to advance to the finals.

6. Deck Format–albeit with a different ruleset–is also standard for TAKARA-TOMY events, usually their finals. There's a reason for this, and it's likely similar to our reasoning. And actually, our tournaments are already much longer than most TT events since we don't run single elimination for the first stage like they do.

1) I thoroughly doubt having a separate beypoints system for Round Robin finals will "fracture the player base" or over complicate things. I don't think this is a big enough issue to fracture the player base (as I note in point 2) and I don't think it really over complicates things, and even if it does you just made several members contributors so I think you'd be able to handle it. I can however accept that it would be too expensive to make alterations to the site in order to adopt a second beypoints system. 

2) That's a fair point however not that many people really posted in the thread. There was a vocal minority but the majority are fairly indifferent or didn't seem to care enough to give feedback/they're members that hardly ever post on the site to begin with. What I will say is that people in the UK community (other than Mana and Manicben) either preferred Round Robin or were indifferent. And indifferent is not the same as positive feedback. The members in question also never post on the site so they wouldn't have provided any feedback.

I agree with all your other points. However my final point would be that even if everyone likes Deck Format more that doesn't mean you can't have a format with Round Round finals. You are choosing not to.

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