World Beyblade Organization by Fighting Spirits Inc. Beyblade Discussion Beyblade Customizations Metal Fight Limited Customizations

Reasons for R2F to be banned?

Jun. 25, 2015  9:31 PM
 
I've taken into consideration of how the whole format works, but I see SOME corruption, involving how limited the range of competitive combos is.

With that said, I have an algorithm that should be used in order to decide which parts should be banned or not.

With the algorithm, i'll describe why R2F should be banned in limited play with describing each part of the new part of the algorithm.

1: LIMITATION IN IT'S OWN INTERMEDIATE RANGE
Spoiler (Click to View)
2: ABILTY TO DEFEAT PARTS OF OTHER TYPES
Spoiler (Click to View)
3: CONTINUOUS USAGE ON BEYBLADES
Spoiler (Click to View)

Now, for an experiment for you to try with this algorithm:

Spoiler (Click to View)
Jun. 25, 2015  9:35 PM
 
I would not say this is an aglorithm, and there are a lot of factors that come into play in a tournament that you cannot encounter in theory or in private practice at home. That being said, I suppose that banning RF-style Bottoms is a valid proposal, so I will move this to the Limited sub-forum of the Beyblade Customizations forum.
Jun. 25, 2015  9:35 PM
 
R2F shouldn't be banned.
Jun. 25, 2015  9:37 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  9:35 PM)UltimateOrion Wrote: R2F shouldn't be banned.

I was afraid of someone saying this, but read the steps more carefully.

I would be fine with keeping the normal rf since it is less aggressive, but r2f is seriously insane.
Jun. 25, 2015  9:47 PM
 
I will do some testing later probably.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:00 PM
 
If R2F was to be banned, I could only assume it would greatly cripple attack types. Everyone would just switch to RF, and all that would have happened is a new tip would come into power. Also, R2F cannot move defense types with tips like RB and RSF, and if it does, KO's are very rare. Even stamina types can survive R2F, and left spin combos do a fine job of it.

I don't think R2F should be banned, but if someone where to post tests that proved otherwise, then it might deserve some consideration.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:00 PM
 
If anything RF should be banned, it is much more over powered than R2F, anyway if any of the 3 rubber tips were to be banned then attack types would be even more limited to customization. Banning such a vital part of attack types would easily make something like Libra 230RS over powered in the meta game very quickly, i just do not think that any of the attack rubber tips should be banned.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:05 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:00 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: If anything RF should be banned, it is much more over powered than R2F, anyway if any of the 3 rubber tips were to be banned then attack types would be even more limited to customization. Banning such a vital part of attack types would easily make something like Libra 230RS over powered in the meta game very quickly, i just do not think that any of the attack rubber tips should be banned.

Yeah, but then libra will have serious balance problems, and any beyblade on a _230 _D combo can defeat it.


Also, isn't it destiny for an attacker to lose to a defense combo? It would INCREASE customization, because when the stmina combo that defeats libra 230 wd is proven, then attacker users will devise attack types to defeat that beyblade, and trust me, there are enough flat variations to make you sound silly if you think it limits variation in attack types to stand firm into the metagame.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:10 PM
 
If R2F was banned it would make no since not to ban all rubber attack tips. They're not ALL that different.


Say that rubber attack tips were banned, Stamina types would rule the meta. Tbh tournaments would be a lot more boring since not other traditional attacks tips match up in performance with RF/R2F/LRF.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:16 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:10 PM)DEEZ NUTS Wrote: If R2F was banned it would make no since not to ban all rubber attack tips. They're not ALL that different.


Say that rubber attack tips were banned, Stamina types would rule the meta. Tbh tournaments would be a lot more boring since not other traditional attacks tips match up in performance with RF/R2F/LRF.

No, not at all; why would all those flat variations be made if they can't even fulfill their role in the stadium? besides; put pegasis or vulcan on xf facing a limited stamina combo, and post the results, and I will rest my case.

Rubber sharp doesn't go around the stadium like it is on some drug of sort, but stays calm. great for defense, poor for stamina, it can stay.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:17 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:05 PM)Sion Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:00 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: If anything RF should be banned, it is much more over powered than R2F, anyway if any of the 3 rubber tips were to be banned then attack types would be even more limited to customization. Banning such a vital part of attack types would easily make something like Libra 230RS over powered in the meta game very quickly, i just do not think that any of the attack rubber tips should be banned.

Yeah, but then libra will have serious balance problems, and any beyblade on a _230 _D combo can defeat it.


Also, isn't it destiny for an attacker to lose to a defense combo? It would INCREASE customization, because when the stmina combo that defeats libra 230 wd is proven, then attacker users will devise attack types to defeat that beyblade, and trust me, there are enough flat variations to make you sound silly if you think it limits variation in attack types to stand firm into the metagame.
Flat tips wont cut it due to lack of friction to the stadium which will cause easy knock outs for opponent beys and lack of heavy hits for the attack bey; there are only 3... or 2 rubber tips if this one gets banned: RF and LRF, therefore not a lot of customization for attack types.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:22 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:17 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:05 PM)Sion Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:00 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: If anything RF should be banned, it is much more over powered than R2F, anyway if any of the 3 rubber tips were to be banned then attack types would be even more limited to customization. Banning such a vital part of attack types would easily make something like Libra 230RS over powered in the meta game very quickly, i just do not think that any of the attack rubber tips should be banned.

Yeah, but then libra will have serious balance problems, and any beyblade on a _230 _D combo can defeat it.


Also, isn't it destiny for an attacker to lose to a defense combo? It would INCREASE customization, because when the stmina combo that defeats libra 230 wd is proven, then attacker users will devise attack types to defeat that beyblade, and trust me, there are enough flat variations to make you sound silly if you think it limits variation in attack types to stand firm into the metagame.
Flat tips wont cut it due to lack of friction to the stadium which will cause easy knock outs for opponent beys and lack of heavy hits for the attack bey; there are only 3... or 2 rubber tips if this one gets banned: RF and LRF, therefore not a lot of customization for attack types.

Very true, however, it's more of a speed- recoil thing in attack types. it's the tradeoff; without that recoil, it literally destroys the purpose of defense types; stamina types aren't heavy to maintain stamina, so a true stamina type wouldn't be mde to protect itself from attack. heavy tankers are powerful, but a true stamina type will more often the not outspin them.

Besides, if the blader is experienced enough (i've been in the round for 3 years now) they can manage to obtain a good lethal sliding shot with good smash potential with a non rubber flat variation. I'm good at that; but it takes time to perfect, more so than rubber variations.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:28 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:22 PM)Sion Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:17 PM)1234beyblade Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:05 PM)Sion Wrote: Yeah, but then libra will have serious balance problems, and any beyblade on a _230 _D combo can defeat it.


Also, isn't it destiny for an attacker to lose to a defense combo? It would INCREASE customization, because when the stmina combo that defeats libra 230 wd is proven, then attacker users will devise attack types to defeat that beyblade, and trust me, there are enough flat variations to make you sound silly if you think it limits variation in attack types to stand firm into the metagame.
Flat tips wont cut it due to lack of friction to the stadium which will cause easy knock outs for opponent beys and lack of heavy hits for the attack bey; there are only 3... or 2 rubber tips if this one gets banned: RF and LRF, therefore not a lot of customization for attack types.

Very true, however, it's more of a speed- recoil thing in attack types. it's the tradeoff; without that recoil, it literally destroys the purpose of defense types; stamina types aren't heavy to maintain stamina, so a true stamina type wouldn't be mde to protect itself from attack. heavy tankers are powerful, but a true stamina type will more often the not outspin them.
Speed will not do you much without friction, you cannot have one or the other to have a good attack type, you need both, i cannot really explain it, but i am pretty certain my physics class thought me the right stuff and i trust it, maybe after grade 12 physics i will be able to prove it with numbers haha. But good luck with trying to prove R2F is ban worthy Smile in my opinion i doubt it will be banned (maybe a trial ban would be the furthest this goes like F230CF/GCF).

The sliding shoot with a plastic tip will never be as good as a Rubber sliding shoot since friction stops the beyblade from going crazy which allows gravity to take the mass of the beyblade to the center of the stadium which allows the attack type to be knock out beys in the middle, only logical really. (plastic tips do not give enough time for gravity to take part in the action)
Jun. 25, 2015  10:45 PM
 
I think just about everyone has the same thought here; I'll just add on. Attack is finally a competitor in the Beyblade metagame. And taking away R2F will take away the fun and uniqueness of Limited.

R2F is one of the things that make Limited such a great format and sets it apart from Standard and Zero-G. If there was a huge danger of attack, it would be more of the metal wheel's fault as apposed to the tip. Banning an attack tipis different from banning a defense tip, such as RS or RDF. Banning a defense tip prevents Attack from being used almost completely. And Defense will usually lose to stamina no matter the tip. With the ban of an attack tip, Defense gets a huge lead on an already weak type of style. Attack loses almost all ground it had against defenders and loses some edge on stamina. With Defense and stamina there's less risk so it's easier to warrant a ban on those types of tips because they function similairly. This creates an unfair balance between Attack, Defense, and Stamina.

(Jun. 25, 2015  10:22 PM)Sion Wrote: Besides, if the blader is experienced enough (i've been in the round for 3 years now) they can manage to obtain a good lethal sliding shot with good smash potential with a non rubber flat variation. I'm good at that; but it takes time to perfect, more so than rubber variations.

Attack is incredibly unpredictable. If you even to manage a good sliding shoot there's a chance it can smack into a defender and be sent away from the stadium. Whenever there is large amount of attack, there's large amounts of recoil present as well. Even the most experienced bladers cannot account for this.

(Jun. 25, 2015  10:22 PM)Sion Wrote: Very true, however, it's more of a speed- recoil thing in attack types. it's the tradeoff; without that recoil, it literally destroys the purpose of defense types...[cut]

Exactly. Attack is so uncommonly used in Standard for that exact reason.Getting rid of R2F not only gets rid of a versatile part, but it opens the way for more use of Defense creating less attack use. So eventually, Defense will become obselete and Stamina will takeover. Also without the added speed attackers had with R2F no one will use Attackers because they are just plain risky.

For those saying RF should be banned, just think about it. Though RF, can manage recoil a lot better making it a bit safer choice, that's all RF really is, safer. It can be a better option in some circumstances, it's basically a noob choice in some ways. Though TheBlackDragon posted something about RF and it's uses it's still mainly used for beginners to get a sliding shoot. I'm not saying all the time, but more of the time. R2F is used way more and to more effect. Why ban something that is used even less frequently and practically for beginner use?

You probably should've given this more thought before posting. Unhappy Not to mention there's no testing...
Jun. 25, 2015  10:56 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:16 PM)Sion Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:10 PM)DEEZ NUTS Wrote: If R2F was banned it would make no since not to ban all rubber attack tips. They're not ALL that different.


Say that rubber attack tips were banned, Stamina types would rule the meta. Tbh tournaments would be a lot more boring since not other traditional attacks tips match up in performance with RF/R2F/LRF.

No, not at all; why would all those flat variations be made if they can't even fulfill their role in the stadium? besides; put pegasis or vulcan on xf facing a limited stamina combo, and post the results, and I will rest my case.

Rubber sharp doesn't go around the stadium like it is on some drug of sort, but stays calm. great for defense, poor for stamina, it can stay.
lol you know this is a toy company we're talking about. Not every part performs like it should on the anime. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to make a flower pattern with XF, fact. The plastic attack tips have minimal friction (besides slower ones like F) so they just fly out the stadium unless you launch very carefully.


I said rubber attack tips, no?
Jun. 25, 2015  10:56 PM
 
This is a ridiculous proposal. Banning R2F makes attack weaker and more inconsistent than it was already in tournament situations. Banning R2F also hardly gives a reason why other Rubber attack tips shouldn't be banned at the same time. Banning rubber tips ruins attack. Plastic or Metal Flat tips don't do nearly the same job. Plastic doesn't grip well and I don't care what you say about "mastering" a technique but in reality no. You can practice all you want but it won't grip it good not to mention after contact it will probably go into stall. There is no reason to ban R2F as it hasn't dominated and completely shut down a meta ever. Not to mention tournament results say otherwise. Attack is really hard to use in a tournament, pressure and many other things come into play when you are playing. I have seen Rubber Flat attack lose to stamina as much as it has beaten it. Attack is already inconsistent as its primary winning option is to knock out the opposing beyblade and trying to make this inconsistent type of beyblade even less likely to win is ridiculous. Stamina would take over more than it already has. Your experiment in the OP is quite dumb, comparing a sway attack tip to one actually meant to force KO the other beyblade out of the stadium. That makes no since and serves no purpose to actually try to do that. In your first statement the reason it outclasses the majority of flat tips for regular attack is because half of them aren't meant for attack. Your second point is also not that valid. There are many tips that beat more than others. Look at RS, beats as many things as Rubber Flat tips. There are even a few more tips like this examples as well. Your third point doesn't make since either. If it is mainly used on something of its type it just means it's generally better than the other options, and to be honest if you look at your other options what would you use for a consistent attack type. I also haven't seen all this "motivation" to use it at events, stadiums have walls and it usually leads to really inconsistent battles. Not to mention your opponents launch comes into play.

In conclusion there doesn't really seem like much reason why rubber flat tips should be banned and if anything it is actually healthy for the meta as it keeps some customizations in check that would otherwise take a firm grip over the meta.

Also sorry if this post is hard to read because I didn't make spaces between a lot of lines, I'm on a phone right now so it was kinda hard to make the post look as nice as possible.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM
 
Well... this encourages bladers to try harder, and not to take it easy with a cliche combo. and for people in expert hands, you forgot to mention about them.
Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:45 PM)Echizen Wrote: For those saying RF should be banned, just think about it. Though RF, can manage recoil a lot better making it a bit safer choice, that's all RF really is, safer. It can be a better option in some circumstances, it's basically a noob choice in some ways. Though TheBlackDragon posted something about RF and it's uses it's still mainly used for beginners to get a sliding shoot. I'm not saying all the time, but more of the time. R2F is used way more and to more effect. Why ban something that is used even less frequently and practically for beginner use?

You probably should've given this more thought before posting. Unhappy
In my personal opinion it feels like R2F is made more plastic than RF which is why i thought RF should be banned over R2F, i don't know maybe it is just my R2F's that sucks. (Also i found it easier to control R2F in the beginning (from my first Galaxy Pegasus which is now a RB not R2F haha... I thought RF was always the better choice)
Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM)Sion Wrote: and for people in expert hands, you forgot to mention about them.
Take a look at my post. Wink

(Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM)1234beyblade Wrote: In my personal opinion it feels like R2F is made more plastic than RF which is why i thought RF should be banned over R2F, i don't know maybe it is just my R2F's that sucks.

Yeah that's true. I remember someone posting about that same thing. I think it has to do with the mold.
Jun. 25, 2015  11:00 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM)Sion Wrote: Well... this encourages bladers to try harder, and not to take it easy with a cliche combo. and for people in expert hands, you forgot to mention about them.




Lets just bring limited 2.0 back then...
Jun. 25, 2015  11:02 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  11:00 PM)DEEZ NUTS Wrote:
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM)Sion Wrote: Well... this encourages bladers to try harder, and not to take it easy with a cliche combo. and for people in expert hands, you forgot to mention about them.

Lets just bring limited 2.0 back then...

Yeah seriously. This kind of contradicts yourself because using an attack type is about the least cliche thing you can do, hah.
Jun. 25, 2015  11:02 PM
 
I absolutely agree with thunder dome; kinda what I've been trying to say.
Jun. 25, 2015  11:08 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:56 PM)Thunder Dome Wrote: Attack is really hard to use in a tournament, pressure and many other things come into play when you are playing. I have seen Rubber Flat attack lose to stamina as much as it has beaten it. Attack is already inconsistent as its primary winning option is to knock out the opposing beyblade and trying to make this inconsistent type of beyblade even less likely to win is ridiculous.

Yeah I totally agree with this. A tournament situation is way different than home testing. And that's something you just can't account for.

Sorry we all kind of jumped on you, Sion. Not much has just really happened in awhile and finally something debate-worthy shows up and we just go all out. Well, that's just how I feel, hah. XD
Jun. 25, 2015  11:09 PM
 
LOL Echizen XD (I felt like that too :#)
Jun. 25, 2015  11:30 PM
 
(Jun. 25, 2015  10:57 PM)Sion Wrote: Well... this encourages bladers to try harder, and not to take it easy with a cliche combo.

No, it just forces them to either make a new cliche combo with weaker parts, or move onto another cliche combo from another type.

It's just an inherent part of Beyblade that a few combinations shine above all else. The purpose of Limited is not to simply ban the strongest parts; it's to provide a broader range of viable strategies so that competitive play is less predictable and more fun.

Your proposal will handicap Attack-types considerably, thereby making Attack a less viable strategy, and consequently actually making the metagame less varied, not more. Attack is already such a risky strategy that many players are hesitant to utilize it, so there's no value in making that an even less enticing proposition.

IMO, one of the key indicators of a healthy Beyblade metagame is that players are actually willing to play with Attack-types.
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