Would S.Pegasis 100RF a competitive combo i'm not sure since you said i might take track 100 from quetz as an competitive bey.
Competitive Metal Fight Beyblade Combos
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After fairly extensive testing with a Storm 90Rf, 100RF, and 105RF combination, 105 is completely outclassed by 90 and 100.
As I only own a Storm Pegasis I can only vouch for the following data on Storm Pegasis.
ALL of my testing has been done with another person as in, both MFB's were launched at the same time, none of that fire one, fire two stuff. Simulated as best as possible to an actual battle in an MFB Attack Stadium. For each I did 3 sets of 20 battles, which means each combo went through 60 battles, yes this means in the span of this single day I used my RF bottom 180 times (Good god the things I do for information >>). I also utilized a proper sliding shoot, which I believe the results below ought to reflect well enough.
The following are test results against the current competitive defense combo: MF Libra C145B
I don't think it's necessary to break down a lot of the matches but I'll post some notable information here regarding things. I'm using these matches as reference as well to a theory or two I have regarding the Storm MFB versus the Quetz, differences and why Quetz is looking to be more devastating 'cause it actually is.
Storm 105RF:
Wins/Losses: 5-15; 3-17; 4-16
Overall Win %: 20%
Notable Information: This is particularly why this is not a feasible track, when you see the results of the other two tracks the difference is huge. The ONLY way this combo ever got a win was from a KO and unfortunately the Point of Contact typically resulted in a detrimental recoil. As I had applied a light coat of paint to see where Storm Pegasis was hitting on Libra I noticed it was nearer to the middle and top of the combo, at points I can see Libra having it's own... mini smash adding into the impact and being heavier, receiving less from the exchange.
Storm 100RF:
Wins/Losses: 9-11; 10-10; 9-11
Overall Win %: 46.6%
Notable Information: This did better than most would think, the Point of Contact for Storm was between the Metal Wheel of Libra and the C145 track, it avoided the claws and managed full on contact. At times this also managed to cause a sort of upper attack resulting in one match (in each set interestingly enough) being a win where it caused Libra to lose it's balance and spin out. The rest were solid smash attacks. With C145 and the potential of ED145 dominating the defensive field, I think 100 should be the more prominent combo against defense types.
Storm 90RF:
Wins/Losses: 8-13; 7-13; 7-13
Overall Win %: 36.6%
Notable Information: Surprisingly worse, why? I'm not 100% sure but I think the discrepancy between the two is the Point of Contact on Storm Pegasis. Compared to Quetzalcoatl it is lower from what Brad has shown me. Regardless this combo saw C145 taking the brunt of the damage often resulting in Storm Pegasis to lose balance or run itself downward and due to its lower height, rub along the stadium floor unfavorably. This typically resulted in Storm 90RF unable to come back for that second KO chance that 100 often saw and followed through on. There however was much more of a destabilizing occurrence with this combo, something that Quetz 90RF has been said to do more often than not being this low. I think Storm is less effective at it due to its shape and lack of width, Quetz has more of a wedge shape in this regard and while it isn't exactly an upper attack, against a C145 it tends to do a similar trick; Storm did that but much less effective.
General Notes: This was an Attack vs a Defense type MFB, why I did this was to show the major differences in the tracks because against a Stamina type which it should win against, even a 105 gets around a 65-75% win ratio. Against a Defense type the Point of Contact is more obvious, and the difference in height for a smash attack is shown better. It also demonstrates that yes, while 105 can be competitive enough to knock out it's TYPE ADVANTAGE, 105 is dead weight against a defense type. For multi-purpose use 100RF is all a Storm would need, it's consistent enough, and statistically for me is the MOST consistent combination. That being said, Storm 90RF is in the higher 90%+ in terms of KO against Stamina types, there is very little room for a loss in this match up.
Based on the data I have, removing 100 from Quetz is probably reasonable, no one is going to use 100 anyways since they get 90 with Quetz in the first place and why even bother with 105 at that point. Brad did a test similar to mine for Quetz 100RF earlier in the evening (it was like... 2:30am for us >>) when I finished my tests and helped me figure out the difference between the two. That being said I believe of the two, Quetzalcoatl is the superior Smash Attack combo, however due to its difficulty to obtain and how effective of a Smash Attacker Storm Pegasis is, Storm 90/100 RF is still a viable competitive MFB.
My theory behind Quetz's superior consistency is that it only has two points of attack and a larger gap between them allowing for more predictable and full smash attacks. In video's I've observed it hitting and sending it's opponent flying instantly whereas Storm Pegasis has ground against an opponent before sending it off or even bouncing off pitifully before smashing solidly. On Storm Pegasis the three wings are much closer than a Quetzalcoatl and it's plenty obvious in pictures between the two.
As I only own a Storm Pegasis I can only vouch for the following data on Storm Pegasis.
ALL of my testing has been done with another person as in, both MFB's were launched at the same time, none of that fire one, fire two stuff. Simulated as best as possible to an actual battle in an MFB Attack Stadium. For each I did 3 sets of 20 battles, which means each combo went through 60 battles, yes this means in the span of this single day I used my RF bottom 180 times (Good god the things I do for information >>). I also utilized a proper sliding shoot, which I believe the results below ought to reflect well enough.
The following are test results against the current competitive defense combo: MF Libra C145B
I don't think it's necessary to break down a lot of the matches but I'll post some notable information here regarding things. I'm using these matches as reference as well to a theory or two I have regarding the Storm MFB versus the Quetz, differences and why Quetz is looking to be more devastating 'cause it actually is.
Storm 105RF:
Wins/Losses: 5-15; 3-17; 4-16
Overall Win %: 20%
Notable Information: This is particularly why this is not a feasible track, when you see the results of the other two tracks the difference is huge. The ONLY way this combo ever got a win was from a KO and unfortunately the Point of Contact typically resulted in a detrimental recoil. As I had applied a light coat of paint to see where Storm Pegasis was hitting on Libra I noticed it was nearer to the middle and top of the combo, at points I can see Libra having it's own... mini smash adding into the impact and being heavier, receiving less from the exchange.
Storm 100RF:
Wins/Losses: 9-11; 10-10; 9-11
Overall Win %: 46.6%
Notable Information: This did better than most would think, the Point of Contact for Storm was between the Metal Wheel of Libra and the C145 track, it avoided the claws and managed full on contact. At times this also managed to cause a sort of upper attack resulting in one match (in each set interestingly enough) being a win where it caused Libra to lose it's balance and spin out. The rest were solid smash attacks. With C145 and the potential of ED145 dominating the defensive field, I think 100 should be the more prominent combo against defense types.
Storm 90RF:
Wins/Losses: 8-13; 7-13; 7-13
Overall Win %: 36.6%
Notable Information: Surprisingly worse, why? I'm not 100% sure but I think the discrepancy between the two is the Point of Contact on Storm Pegasis. Compared to Quetzalcoatl it is lower from what Brad has shown me. Regardless this combo saw C145 taking the brunt of the damage often resulting in Storm Pegasis to lose balance or run itself downward and due to its lower height, rub along the stadium floor unfavorably. This typically resulted in Storm 90RF unable to come back for that second KO chance that 100 often saw and followed through on. There however was much more of a destabilizing occurrence with this combo, something that Quetz 90RF has been said to do more often than not being this low. I think Storm is less effective at it due to its shape and lack of width, Quetz has more of a wedge shape in this regard and while it isn't exactly an upper attack, against a C145 it tends to do a similar trick; Storm did that but much less effective.
General Notes: This was an Attack vs a Defense type MFB, why I did this was to show the major differences in the tracks because against a Stamina type which it should win against, even a 105 gets around a 65-75% win ratio. Against a Defense type the Point of Contact is more obvious, and the difference in height for a smash attack is shown better. It also demonstrates that yes, while 105 can be competitive enough to knock out it's TYPE ADVANTAGE, 105 is dead weight against a defense type. For multi-purpose use 100RF is all a Storm would need, it's consistent enough, and statistically for me is the MOST consistent combination. That being said, Storm 90RF is in the higher 90%+ in terms of KO against Stamina types, there is very little room for a loss in this match up.
Based on the data I have, removing 100 from Quetz is probably reasonable, no one is going to use 100 anyways since they get 90 with Quetz in the first place and why even bother with 105 at that point. Brad did a test similar to mine for Quetz 100RF earlier in the evening (it was like... 2:30am for us >>) when I finished my tests and helped me figure out the difference between the two. That being said I believe of the two, Quetzalcoatl is the superior Smash Attack combo, however due to its difficulty to obtain and how effective of a Smash Attacker Storm Pegasis is, Storm 90/100 RF is still a viable competitive MFB.
My theory behind Quetz's superior consistency is that it only has two points of attack and a larger gap between them allowing for more predictable and full smash attacks. In video's I've observed it hitting and sending it's opponent flying instantly whereas Storm Pegasis has ground against an opponent before sending it off or even bouncing off pitifully before smashing solidly. On Storm Pegasis the three wings are much closer than a Quetzalcoatl and it's plenty obvious in pictures between the two.
fair enough. brad, i thought you said pro bladers can win by the attack type versus anything. but i see that the tests hiro made say that all of the win rates for attack type blades are under 50%. do you get the same rate brad?
(Aug. 01, 2009 11:35 AM)Bey Brad Wrote: What are your "good" Defense combos, exactly? Is it MF Libra C145WB/B?weird.. we always said that WB is the best defence bottom. but now you equalize it with B?
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Just because the % is against you doesn't mean you can't win. There is a chance you won't win especially in your WORST match up. Similarly, that is just with that particular combo, Brad wrote the post you've mentioned with Quetz 90RF in mind, and I'm convinced more and more it has 50% or more win rate against Defense.
As far as B vs WB goes I prefer B in an attack Stadium, for me B has yielded the best results in that particular stadium so I went with it. The goal I had was to stack up against the attack type as best I could. While I could redo the test with MF Virgo C145WB I really really don't want to abuse my RF another 180 times, granted the practice was wonderful. Regardless I don't think the bottom change will affect things immensely the height difference certainly won't be enough to skewer the results horribly.
As far as B vs WB goes I prefer B in an attack Stadium, for me B has yielded the best results in that particular stadium so I went with it. The goal I had was to stack up against the attack type as best I could. While I could redo the test with MF Virgo C145WB I really really don't want to abuse my RF another 180 times, granted the practice was wonderful. Regardless I don't think the bottom change will affect things immensely the height difference certainly won't be enough to skewer the results horribly.
lol no you dont have to do all this again. i will test them myself later. thnx for your efforts! 
STAMINA
Virgo DF145/D125 D/B
Libra DF145/D125 D/B
Flame Sagittario/Cancer DF145/D125 D/B
note: shouldnt flame libra be added?
STAMINA
Virgo DF145/D125 D/B
Libra DF145/D125 D/B
Flame Sagittario/Cancer DF145/D125 D/B
note: shouldnt flame libra be added?
Why add something that isn't out yet?
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Hiro, your thirst for knowledge and enthusiasm is truly admirable. :')
(Aug. 01, 2009 12:15 PM)pegasis Wrote: fair enough. brad, i thought you said pro bladers can win by the attack type versus anything. but i see that the tests hiro made say that all of the win rates for attack type blades are under 50%. do you get the same rate brad?
weird.. we always said that WB is the best defence bottom. but now you equalize it with B?
Considering the massive disadvantage Attack-types have Vs. Defense-types, a win rate even approaching 50% against the top-tier Defense combo is good.
I gave you option of either B or WB, my point was you can't build this combo at all so you can't speak about beating "good" Defense-types.
(Aug. 01, 2009 12:24 PM)pegasis Wrote: note: shouldnt flame libra be added?
We don't even know anything about it other than it having Flame's Metal Wheel.
ya and by it having the flame wheel.. with a df145D it will be from the top stamina blades but your right lets just wait..
and i said good defence and libraD125WB is good. while libraC145WB is one of the best.
when i said good i didnt mean the top tier blades.
but your right lets just wait..and i said good defence and libraD125WB is good. while libraC145WB is one of the best.
when i said good i didnt mean the top tier blades.
(Aug. 01, 2009 8:21 PM)pegasis Wrote: ya and by it having the flame wheel.. with a df145D it will be from the top stamina blades
and i said good defence and libraD125WB is good. while libraC145WB is one of the best.
when i said good i didnt mean the top tier blades.
This topic is for COMPETITIVE, TOP-TIER combos.
i know...! whats your point?
i never said libraD125WB is from the top tier blades... i just said i can beat it easily with my pegasis105F.
lsn your right, you guys made tests and am ok with it not being with the top.
i will wait until if one day i got a toptier defence combo and could beat it with my Speg105RF in a persent close to what hiro came with.
i never said libraD125WB is from the top tier blades... i just said i can beat it easily with my pegasis105F.
lsn your right, you guys made tests and am ok with it not being with the top.
i will wait until if one day i got a toptier defence combo and could beat it with my Speg105RF in a persent close to what hiro came with.
(Aug. 01, 2009 8:37 PM)pegasis Wrote: i know...! whats your point?
i never said libraD125WB is from the top tier blades... i just said i can beat it easily with my pegasis105F.
The point is that the test results only mean something when tested against top-tier blades, not against second-rate beyblades (like your LibraD125WB).
In general I don't consider any combination incredibly horrible, a Leone can KO the top Libra combo as well. However, this thread is for the discussion of competitive MFB's which you could consider the 'tried, tested, consistent, and true' combo's out there amongst parts, the MFB/WBO Meta Game if you would. Which essentially means the combo's to look out for, these are the combo's most likely in use by competitive players and ones that generally set the bar. For the current MFB parts lists, we're nearly out of possible combination's, this means that nearly all other part combo's have been used and tested. IMO there isn't much more to explore in the field of current combo's and the only parts to really look out for right now are the new parts like the infamously unknown Q bottom, the ED145 Track, and Lightning L Drago's Metal/Clear Wheel.
'Going against the Meta Game' or 'Predicting the Meta Game' is a common strategy and one I advocate heavily, I do it with Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, and now, recently Beyblades. An example of this was my testing of track height on one of the MFB's, which subsequently lead to the near finalization of the current Attack type list. Another option would be to create a combo specifically for defeating a specific MFB on the list, that would generally require heavy testing and reasoning behind things. For instance if you were convinced your Libra D125WB was a contender against Storm 100RF or Quetz 90RF, do some convincing and thorough tests and then bring it up, bare in mind that it would have to do better on a whole than the current defense combination as well.
'Going against the Meta Game' or 'Predicting the Meta Game' is a common strategy and one I advocate heavily, I do it with Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, and now, recently Beyblades. An example of this was my testing of track height on one of the MFB's, which subsequently lead to the near finalization of the current Attack type list. Another option would be to create a combo specifically for defeating a specific MFB on the list, that would generally require heavy testing and reasoning behind things. For instance if you were convinced your Libra D125WB was a contender against Storm 100RF or Quetz 90RF, do some convincing and thorough tests and then bring it up, bare in mind that it would have to do better on a whole than the current defense combination as well.
the thing is that i dont have the parts 
and the money 
i have an idea, if i did some tests with my Speg105RF vs LibraD125WB\B and got a %.
then you can test your Speg100RF vs the same blade and get a %. after that we can compare them !?
and the money i have an idea, if i did some tests with my Speg105RF vs LibraD125WB\B and got a %.
then you can test your Speg100RF vs the same blade and get a %. after that we can compare them !?
(Aug. 02, 2009 10:45 AM)pegasis Wrote: the thing is that i dont have the parts
i have an idea, if i did some tests with my Speg105RF vs LibraD125WB\B and got a %.
then you can test your Speg100RF vs the same blade and get a %. after that we can compare them !?
But this result isn't useful to us ...
That would be fine, however this is certainly not the place for that discussion ^^;
Unless the person with S.Pegasis105RF got lucky in battle but the statistics do show that S.Pegasis100RF is better though.
well.. for the 105 combo to be on the list it doesnt have to be better than 100, we all know that 100 is better, the main reason for putting something in the list is when it can compete with the other combos pro players might use and beat them. so if it was able to beat the libra combo in the list with a high persentage it should be added. but they did their tests and i believe them, but ofcource the one cant feel 100% satesfied untill he tries it himself.
anyway, after the tests shown in the lighting L drago100RF thread, shouldnt it be added?
anyway, after the tests shown in the lighting L drago100RF thread, shouldnt it be added?
I'd still wait for some pending information from Beynval. It looks promising, but there are a few factors that need to be cleared up. For instance I'd really rather see a simulated battle environment for the testing on it, there are a lot of factors that weight in favor of any attack type if it's fired after a defense type IMO.
I want to try it myself before adding it.
100 is not exactly a difficult to obtain part, I see no reason to include 105 when 100 is better.
100 is not exactly a difficult to obtain part, I see no reason to include 105 when 100 is better.
just looking at some tops.
i havent had time to read through the 8 pages so if this has already come up i appologise: but is L Drago any good? he looks like he good do some damage tbh
i havent had time to read through the 8 pages so if this has already come up i appologise: but is L Drago any good? he looks like he good do some damage tbh
(Aug. 02, 2009 2:45 PM)axe_ninja Wrote: just looking at some tops.
i havent had time to read through the 8 pages so if this has already come up i appologise: but is L Drago any good? he looks like he good do some damage tbh
No. L Drago is not good.
You should have asked this in the Ask a Question, Get an Answer! topic...
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