Mf-L Burn Cetus/Gemios 230 EDS/SD

The point of this combo is to act like a standard 230 stamina combo against opponents where it can beat it just by outspinning, but against combos that it's screwed against trying to do that (B, TH170 stamina, mid-tall destabilizers) you launch it at a steep angle so it rides on the edge of the performance tip to move aggressively and attack with the energy ring and burn's bumps (here on refereed to as "attack mode").

Some unanswered questions i have regarding this combo:
-Should this combo just straight up use a heavy metal face to minimize recoil when in attack mode or stick with light to retain better stamina
-Would any other performance tips work with this combo? I'm mainly curious about metal ball but I do not own that, if anyone has any insight on that it would be appreciated
-Would any other energy rings work with this? i dont think scorpio would work given that the slope is more shallow than that of cetus or gemios, but perhaps theres one im unaware of that has a similarly steep slope
-dare i say, would any different fusion wheels work for this sort of technique, this is already janky as heck so i wouldnt be shocked if some normally bad fusion wheel ended up being good with it

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Pronouns are It/Its

I’d like to reccommend this combo: Phantom Cygnus F230 EWD/WD. If you want a good stamina custom that uses the 230 track, F230 is the way to go. Phantom has much more pure, raw stamina than burn does, so it is better for this purpose. (E)WD is here because it excels on stamina while still having good balance, and EWD is just better for stamina. And then Cygnus is more of an optional thing, but it is one of the best clear wheel for stamina combos, at least ones using phantom.

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i don’t know what to put here.

I’d like to reccommend this combo: Phantom Cygnus F230 EWD/WD. If you want a good stamina custom that uses the 230 track, F230 is the way to go. Phantom has much more pure, raw stamina than burn does, so it is better for this purpose. (E)WD is here because it excels on stamina while still having good balance, and EWD is just better for stamina. And then Cygnus is more of an optional thing, but it is one of the best clear wheel for stamina combos, at least ones using phantom.

this is limited so phantom is banned, and i believe even in standard duo is preferred outside tornado stallers, and f230 is mostly only good for spinsteal to my understanding (and more pressingly, is way harder to obtain than a normal 230)

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Pronouns are It/Its

I don't think this would work out how you want it to, you aren't likely to get under a shorter combo in a productive way when using a 230 combo. It's more likely that doing so will just result in a self KO, or a double KO at best. You also open yourself up to a lot of shorter combos by choosing Burn, which doesn't have the innate defense that Flame does being raised up.

With that said: No, you would not want a metal face at all, it'd be better to have consistent wins versus what a 230 stamina combo normally beats than to trade it off for a strange attempt at KOs. And again, I don't know how much your clear wheel actually matters on this combo, given that both MB and EDS are tall tips making it very unlikely that you will get under anything except a flame 230CS combo, which can also counterlaunch and accomplish the same thing with their clear wheel, just with more consistency thanks to the rubber. I don't think any fusion wheels work at all - they almost universally have the problem of not being raised like Flame is, and even Flame doesn't have a way to somehow get you under a shorter opponent.

I don't think this would work out how you want it to, you aren't likely to get under a shorter combo in a productive way when using a 230 combo. It's more likely that doing so will just result in a self KO, or a double KO at best. You also open yourself up to a lot of shorter combos by choosing Burn, which doesn't have the innate defense that Flame does being raised up.

With that said: No, you would not want a metal face at all, it'd be better to have consistent wins versus what a 230 stamina combo normally beats than to trade it off for a strange attempt at KOs. And again, I don't know how much your clear wheel actually matters on this combo, given that both MB and EDS are tall tips making it very unlikely that you will get under anything except a flame 230CS combo, which can also counterlaunch and accomplish the same thing with their clear wheel, just with more consistency thanks to the rubber. I don't think any fusion wheels work at all - they almost universally have the problem of not being raised like Flame is, and even Flame doesn't have a way to somehow get you under a shorter opponent

Im confused, the competitive custom list outright lists mf-L as an option for the stamina 230 combos this is derived from with earth and duo, which also dont have the raised properties of flame, also burn has higher raw stamina but im not sure what the net swing would be on that (i only have one 230 so i cant test earth 230 vs mf-l burn 230)

I have tested this and the kind of launch im doing definitely can get under the tall end of combos shorter than it, it can score kos against Earth aquario w145 wd (i do not own B or th170 to test this properly) but the kickback is a real issue hence why i was wanting mf-l

also i do know for a fact the energy ring definitely matters on this specific combo, it used to use aquario but then i tried out gemios (and then cetus) and it can in fact get energy ring kos even against the non-ideal training dummy, it felt like a pure gimmick with aquario but when i put on gemios it felt like it had actual potential

also 230cs can not counterlaunch by angling the launch the same way im doing with EDS it just goes flying out the stadium/into a pocket/wall, when i say angled launch i dont mean a slight angle i mean like a 45 degree angle as the low end, also you would just launch normally against flame 230cs and outspin because burn eds has more stamina than flame cs

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Pronouns are It/Its

I don't think this would work out how you want it to, you aren't likely to get under a shorter combo in a productive way when using a 230 combo. It's more likely that doing so will just result in a self KO, or a double KO at best. You also open yourself up to a lot of shorter combos by choosing Burn, which doesn't have the innate defense that Flame does being raised up.

With that said: No, you would not want a metal face at all, it'd be better to have consistent wins versus what a 230 stamina combo normally beats than to trade it off for a strange attempt at KOs. And again, I don't know how much your clear wheel actually matters on this combo, given that both MB and EDS are tall tips making it very unlikely that you will get under anything except a flame 230CS combo, which can also counterlaunch and accomplish the same thing with their clear wheel, just with more consistency thanks to the rubber. I don't think any fusion wheels work at all - they almost universally have the problem of not being raised like Flame is, and even Flame doesn't have a way to somehow get you under a shorter opponent

Im confused, the competitive custom list outright lists mf-L as an option for the stamina 230 combos this is derived from with earth and duo, which also dont have the raised properties of flame, also burn has higher raw stamina but im not sure what the net swing would be on that (i only have one 230 so i cant test earth 230 vs mf-l burn 230)

I have tested this and the kind of launch im doing definitely can get under the tall end of combos shorter than it, it can score kos against Earth aquario w145 wd (i do not own B or th170 to test this properly) but the kickback is a real issue hence why i was wanting mf-l

also i do know for a fact the energy ring definitely matters on this specific combo, it used to use aquario but then i tried out gemios (and then cetus) and it can in fact get energy ring kos even against the non-ideal training dummy, it felt like a pure gimmick with aquario but when i put on gemios it felt like it had actual potential

also 230cs can not counterlaunch by angling the launch the same way im doing with EDS it just goes flying out the stadium/into a pocket/wall, when i say angled launch i dont mean a slight angle i mean like a 45 degree angle as the low end, also you would just launch normally against flame 230cs and outspin because burn eds has more stamina than flame cs

Eh, if it works for you, that's great. My experience has mostly just been that 230 combos really want to avoid low track as much as possible, and that going for KOs height seems unreliable at best.

Im confused, the competitive custom list outright lists mf-L as an option for the stamina 230 combos this is derived from with earth and duo, which also dont have the raised properties of flame, also burn has higher raw stamina but im not sure what the net swing would be on that (i only have one 230 so i cant test earth 230 vs mf-l burn 230)

I have tested this and the kind of launch im doing definitely can get under the tall end of combos shorter than it, it can score kos against Earth aquario w145 wd (i do not own B or th170 to test this properly) but the kickback is a real issue hence why i was wanting mf-l

also i do know for a fact the energy ring definitely matters on this specific combo, it used to use aquario but then i tried out gemios (and then cetus) and it can in fact get energy ring kos even against the non-ideal training dummy, it felt like a pure gimmick with aquario but when i put on gemios it felt like it had actual potential

also 230cs can not counterlaunch by angling the launch the same way im doing with EDS it just goes flying out the stadium/into a pocket/wall, when i say angled launch i dont mean a slight angle i mean like a 45 degree angle as the low end, also you would just launch normally against flame 230cs and outspin because burn eds has more stamina than flame cs

Eh, if it works for you, that's great. My experience has mostly just been that 230 combos really want to avoid low track as much as possible, and that going for KOs height seems unreliable at best.

Im not saying it for sure is reliable enough to be viable yet, thats what im trying to figure out, i was just confused because what you said contradicted what i was able to parse looking at the competitive custom list

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Pronouns are It/Its