tl;dr: this is the standard for defense in Limited, not gb145/230cs.
Excuse the ugly formatting, I have to write posts in word on my laptop and then copy the text to my mobile and post from that, so I am limited to the code I can remember manually and making adjustments is very difficult.
Q&A With Strawman:
Q: OH NO DEFENSE IS TOO WEAK WITHOUT RB, RS AND RDF MY GB145CS/230CS COMBOS AREN'T BEATING ATTACK AND I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER BECAUSE THINKING IS HARD AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT DEFENSE COMBOS WBO PLS FIX
A: idk man maybe use a defense combo that is actually good instead of just average \_(
)_/
Q: LIKE WHAT SURELY A TIP WITH PLASTIC IN THE MIDDLE AND A TRACK THAT LETS ATTACKERS GET UNDER YOU AND HIT YOU UPWARD TO REMOVE YOUR GRIP IS THE IDEAL SETUP FOR DEFENSE
A: idk maybe something not like that because that is a horrible idea, u no maybe low track defense with tips that have grip and all that
History of LTDC and why I'm doing this:
Shortly before 230 and BD145 came out, Fyuuor, I think it was, made a thread, in which the final part of the metagame moved to low tracks: Defense. I tried LTDC's back then and was extremely impressed and also concerned because my gravity attack combo could no longer wreak havoc on everything.
Somehow despite me pointing out how good these are in every single post I make in this subforum (the reign of LTDC is something I am really looking forward to in this format) people are still complaining based on GB145/230CS that defense is too weak. So, I've interrupted my holiday/stayed at the holiday house while the rest of my family goes out to test and make a thread on one of the main LTDC's, or more accurately one of the major defensive combinations of Limited. It's not even the strongest LTDC out there - sticking RF on it makes things even scarier (at the cost of some stamina) and I have little doubt Metal Fury Duo will be a beast in LTDC too.
Hopefully, this should change people's mind about defense being too weak and maybe make them stop using GB145CS as their standard for defensive power.
Part Choice:
MF-H: MF-H is used to Get Bulky.
Earth: Earth is super low recoil, which capitalises on what LTDC is all about: A low profile, low centre of gravity, low everything.
Bull: Bull is a solid defensive clear wheel thanks to its weight and in this LTDC I am also making use of its slopes to destabilise opponents slightly. Aquario, Cygnus, or Hades can be used for a likely increase in force smash resistance, Cancer can be used for marginally better stamina while maintaining some destabilising ability.
85: Lowest Track in the game, Earth has no overhang and no scraping issues, though a slight overhang could help against lightning, that's a balancing act.
RSF: RSF is the central defensive tip of Limited despite what you all seem to think. It takes hits well, doesn't move too much (but can move enough to jar flower patterns), and its stamina is pretty bad but not completely awful - it has better stamina than most of the popular defense tips in regular MFB. While it is not a huge amount better at taking hits than CS, I do find its defensive superiority is more noticeable on low tracks. RF could be used instead (though be wary of recoil with libra) if you want even more certainty against attack at the expense of decent chances of being outspun by gravity th220rf.
MF-H Earth Bull 85RSF vs ....
BB-10, One L/R for Right v Right, Two for Right v Left. No grips. Tips cleaned after each battle as RSF quickly loses grip from dirt build up.
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) R145RF
Gravity Launches Second, Sliding shot. Earth is straight shot.
BB-10.
Any launches where gravity self KO's or doesn't make contact with earth were redone - this is an absolute BEST CASE SCENARIO for gravity, and a worst case scenario for Earth.
Matchup has constant metal on metal hits, R145 is generally the best track for gravity. RF is worn but behaves like a prime RF and has average stamina for an RF, RSF is near mint, from Ray Gil booster.
Gravity Right Spin, Both Launched at Maximum Strength
Gravity: 7/20 = 35% (all KO)
Earth: 13/20 = 65% (11OS, 2KO)
Notes:
Wow th!nk 65% great counter bro: Yeah, this surprised me because it didn't fit with any of my pre-launch testing. However, I did notice a pattern in the KO's - Earth was near the tornado ridge for every single one, not having enough time for friction to slow it down.
It's also worth mentioning that 65% is more than enough to be a safe choice under tournament conditions, because the strength gravity must be launched with to achieve even 35% results in quite a few self KO's unless you're really good at launching.
Anyway, I figured out the problem, so here's the rematch:
Gravity Right Spin, Earth launched at ~90%
Basically a relaxed, normal launch, strong but not so much it moves outside the lower part of the bowl, as opposed to the craziness of gravity. This gives RSF longer to grip the stadium floor after hits, making it much harder to KO. Don't launch too weak or you will lack the rpm to not get thrown around.
Gravity: 5/20 = 25% (All KO)
Earth: 15/20 = 75% (2KO, 13OS)
Notes: All of gravity's wins were OHKO's, it charged straight at earth in a direct line to an exit. If earth got a wall save, gravity had no hope to handle it with the second or third hits and was outspun.
Gravity Left Spin, both launched at full force.
Gravity: 4/20 = 20% (3KO, 1OS)
Earth: 16/20 = 80% (5KO, 11OS)
Okay so Earth netted a number of KO's: RSF seems to move enough to have affect gravity's movement pattern and cause it to self KO after certain hits - Bull might have something to do with it too, given its slopes (I do like it on low tracks). I've never been a fan of RSF but in limited I like it a lot.
Gravity actually felt like it was doing better in Left, seemed like the KO's it got were easier to get, but apparently not.
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) TH220RF
Gravity Tornado Stalled and Right Spin (this is optimum for gravity). Launches alternated as this is stamina-based (gravity is trying to OS a combo it can't KO), Earth launches first R1
Gravity: 2/20 = 10% (2OS)
Earth: 18/20 = 90% (3KO, 15OS)
Tips: launch RSF as aggressively as you can as you want to knock gravity off balance with an early hit at high rpm. Obviously launch at full strength (which gives you a slight edge as gravity is more prone to self KO when launched full force)
General notes:
Gravity wants to avoid early contact here and if it can do so it thencomes down to launch strength.
I expected this would be closer to 50/50 or 60/40 in earth's favour. As it is, despite the massive margin by which Earth won in the results, in each match the OS's were quite narrow and as such if the gravity user can launch harder than the earth user, it would likely move closer to what I expected.
Other Heights: TH195 gives gravity a chance to force smash earth, however it presents a greater risk of destabilization and seems overall worse than 220 though I don't have time to do full tests. TH170 doesn't work well at all.
More Q&A with Strawman
BUT THINK YOU USED R145 (ALSO TH220) AND THAT IS NOT THE BEST TRACK FOR GRAVITY TO USE AGAINST EARTH
I did, and still got plenty of metal on metal contact. The reason I used R145 is because it's likely to be the most common attack track in the format and it still works well against lower opponents. Use anything lower and you won't get reliable contact with most 230 defense combos, particularly Chrome Wheel based ones like Reviser ____ 230CS - so yes Lightning 85RF will do better against this combo, but it will get wrecked by any 230/TH170 combo with the smallest amount of defensive ability or luck. There were plenty of hard hits every round in these tests, and I'm pretty handy with gravity.
BUT TH!NK RSF'S STAMINA IS BAD
Yes, yes it is. I'm not sure why you expect a defense type to have decent stamina, because the only stamina target for defense is outspinning attack. Maybe you're used to formats where defense has it way easier than the other types (eg phantom can't be used because a lot of defenders will KO it, Attack can't be used because defense walls it and it can even lose against stamina with mislaunches, Defense has to worry about getting outspun by itself and the rare MF-tipped attack combo that works. Also balance, but every type has to worry about balance.
BUT THINK GRAVITY IS ONLY ONE WHEEL WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS
Gravity is the upper limit of what attack types should be capable of in this format. Quetz might have some chance to force smash this combo but that's rare, MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RF is probably the best offensive answer to LTDC, but it does poorly against tall tracks.
BUT THINK U R BIAS
I launched gravity as best I could, but yes there could be subconscious bias though I did take every step to make sure gravity got a good flower pattern and didn't tornado stall etc. I did expect gravity to do a bit better, and I still feel that you could probably do better especially in left spin, significantly so if you got lucky with destabilisation+doubletapping, but even then, you have to remember that in a tournament situation attack WILL do a lot worse as people watch their launch strength to avoid self KO and so on.
Things to look at from here:
I would like to see Gravity on TR145, see if that can outspin earth with any reliability. I would appreciate others trying out these matchups to verify my results (just make sure you launch properly) as despite what it may seem, I am concerned about defense potentially being underpowered - but none of the arguments I have read so far have been well informed, mostly just people way too used to the defense-friendly meta of regular MFB.
I'm curious to see how this combo fares against Beat, Cosmic and Jade, (metal fury), but that is more to see if those are overpowered rather than whether or not this combo is good, as if they do better than gravity they shouldn't be legal.
Excuse the ugly formatting, I have to write posts in word on my laptop and then copy the text to my mobile and post from that, so I am limited to the code I can remember manually and making adjustments is very difficult.
Q&A With Strawman:
Q: OH NO DEFENSE IS TOO WEAK WITHOUT RB, RS AND RDF MY GB145CS/230CS COMBOS AREN'T BEATING ATTACK AND I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING BETTER BECAUSE THINKING IS HARD AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT DEFENSE COMBOS WBO PLS FIX
A: idk man maybe use a defense combo that is actually good instead of just average \_(
)_/ Q: LIKE WHAT SURELY A TIP WITH PLASTIC IN THE MIDDLE AND A TRACK THAT LETS ATTACKERS GET UNDER YOU AND HIT YOU UPWARD TO REMOVE YOUR GRIP IS THE IDEAL SETUP FOR DEFENSE
A: idk maybe something not like that because that is a horrible idea, u no maybe low track defense with tips that have grip and all that
History of LTDC and why I'm doing this:
Shortly before 230 and BD145 came out, Fyuuor, I think it was, made a thread, in which the final part of the metagame moved to low tracks: Defense. I tried LTDC's back then and was extremely impressed and also concerned because my gravity attack combo could no longer wreak havoc on everything.
Somehow despite me pointing out how good these are in every single post I make in this subforum (the reign of LTDC is something I am really looking forward to in this format) people are still complaining based on GB145/230CS that defense is too weak. So, I've interrupted my holiday/stayed at the holiday house while the rest of my family goes out to test and make a thread on one of the main LTDC's, or more accurately one of the major defensive combinations of Limited. It's not even the strongest LTDC out there - sticking RF on it makes things even scarier (at the cost of some stamina) and I have little doubt Metal Fury Duo will be a beast in LTDC too.
Hopefully, this should change people's mind about defense being too weak and maybe make them stop using GB145CS as their standard for defensive power.
Part Choice:
MF-H: MF-H is used to Get Bulky.
Earth: Earth is super low recoil, which capitalises on what LTDC is all about: A low profile, low centre of gravity, low everything.
Bull: Bull is a solid defensive clear wheel thanks to its weight and in this LTDC I am also making use of its slopes to destabilise opponents slightly. Aquario, Cygnus, or Hades can be used for a likely increase in force smash resistance, Cancer can be used for marginally better stamina while maintaining some destabilising ability.
85: Lowest Track in the game, Earth has no overhang and no scraping issues, though a slight overhang could help against lightning, that's a balancing act.
RSF: RSF is the central defensive tip of Limited despite what you all seem to think. It takes hits well, doesn't move too much (but can move enough to jar flower patterns), and its stamina is pretty bad but not completely awful - it has better stamina than most of the popular defense tips in regular MFB. While it is not a huge amount better at taking hits than CS, I do find its defensive superiority is more noticeable on low tracks. RF could be used instead (though be wary of recoil with libra) if you want even more certainty against attack at the expense of decent chances of being outspun by gravity th220rf.
HOW 2 LAUNCH IT
Unless the matchup comes down to stamina, which with earth shouldn't occur against anything trying to KO you, you shouldn't be launching Earth at the same power you would an attacker. 90% is the best approximation I can give you, basically you still want enough strength to take a hit, but you don't want to be getting too close to the tornado ridge - staying about an inch away at all times is about right. MF-H Earth Bull 85RSF vs ....
BB-10, One L/R for Right v Right, Two for Right v Left. No grips. Tips cleaned after each battle as RSF quickly loses grip from dirt build up.
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) R145RF
Gravity Launches Second, Sliding shot. Earth is straight shot.
BB-10.
Any launches where gravity self KO's or doesn't make contact with earth were redone - this is an absolute BEST CASE SCENARIO for gravity, and a worst case scenario for Earth.
Matchup has constant metal on metal hits, R145 is generally the best track for gravity. RF is worn but behaves like a prime RF and has average stamina for an RF, RSF is near mint, from Ray Gil booster.
Gravity Right Spin, Both Launched at Maximum Strength
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth: 13/20 = 65% (11OS, 2KO)
Notes:
Wow th!nk 65% great counter bro: Yeah, this surprised me because it didn't fit with any of my pre-launch testing. However, I did notice a pattern in the KO's - Earth was near the tornado ridge for every single one, not having enough time for friction to slow it down.
It's also worth mentioning that 65% is more than enough to be a safe choice under tournament conditions, because the strength gravity must be launched with to achieve even 35% results in quite a few self KO's unless you're really good at launching.
Anyway, I figured out the problem, so here's the rematch:
Gravity Right Spin, Earth launched at ~90%
Basically a relaxed, normal launch, strong but not so much it moves outside the lower part of the bowl, as opposed to the craziness of gravity. This gives RSF longer to grip the stadium floor after hits, making it much harder to KO. Don't launch too weak or you will lack the rpm to not get thrown around.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Earth: 15/20 = 75% (2KO, 13OS)
Notes: All of gravity's wins were OHKO's, it charged straight at earth in a direct line to an exit. If earth got a wall save, gravity had no hope to handle it with the second or third hits and was outspun.
Gravity Left Spin, both launched at full force.
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Gravity: 4/20 = 20% (3KO, 1OS)
Earth: 16/20 = 80% (5KO, 11OS)
Okay so Earth netted a number of KO's: RSF seems to move enough to have affect gravity's movement pattern and cause it to self KO after certain hits - Bull might have something to do with it too, given its slopes (I do like it on low tracks). I've never been a fan of RSF but in limited I like it a lot.
Gravity actually felt like it was doing better in Left, seemed like the KO's it got were easier to get, but apparently not.
MF-H Gravity Perseus (ATK, Counter) TH220RF
Gravity Tornado Stalled and Right Spin (this is optimum for gravity). Launches alternated as this is stamina-based (gravity is trying to OS a combo it can't KO), Earth launches first R1
Detailed Results (Click to View)
Gravity: 2/20 = 10% (2OS)
Earth: 18/20 = 90% (3KO, 15OS)
Tips: launch RSF as aggressively as you can as you want to knock gravity off balance with an early hit at high rpm. Obviously launch at full strength (which gives you a slight edge as gravity is more prone to self KO when launched full force)
General notes:
Gravity wants to avoid early contact here and if it can do so it thencomes down to launch strength.
I expected this would be closer to 50/50 or 60/40 in earth's favour. As it is, despite the massive margin by which Earth won in the results, in each match the OS's were quite narrow and as such if the gravity user can launch harder than the earth user, it would likely move closer to what I expected.
Other Heights: TH195 gives gravity a chance to force smash earth, however it presents a greater risk of destabilization and seems overall worse than 220 though I don't have time to do full tests. TH170 doesn't work well at all.
More Q&A with Strawman
BUT THINK YOU USED R145 (ALSO TH220) AND THAT IS NOT THE BEST TRACK FOR GRAVITY TO USE AGAINST EARTH
I did, and still got plenty of metal on metal contact. The reason I used R145 is because it's likely to be the most common attack track in the format and it still works well against lower opponents. Use anything lower and you won't get reliable contact with most 230 defense combos, particularly Chrome Wheel based ones like Reviser ____ 230CS - so yes Lightning 85RF will do better against this combo, but it will get wrecked by any 230/TH170 combo with the smallest amount of defensive ability or luck. There were plenty of hard hits every round in these tests, and I'm pretty handy with gravity.
BUT TH!NK RSF'S STAMINA IS BAD
Yes, yes it is. I'm not sure why you expect a defense type to have decent stamina, because the only stamina target for defense is outspinning attack. Maybe you're used to formats where defense has it way easier than the other types (eg phantom can't be used because a lot of defenders will KO it, Attack can't be used because defense walls it and it can even lose against stamina with mislaunches, Defense has to worry about getting outspun by itself and the rare MF-tipped attack combo that works. Also balance, but every type has to worry about balance.
BUT THINK GRAVITY IS ONLY ONE WHEEL WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS
Gravity is the upper limit of what attack types should be capable of in this format. Quetz might have some chance to force smash this combo but that's rare, MF-H Lightning L-Drago 85RF is probably the best offensive answer to LTDC, but it does poorly against tall tracks.
BUT THINK U R BIAS
I launched gravity as best I could, but yes there could be subconscious bias though I did take every step to make sure gravity got a good flower pattern and didn't tornado stall etc. I did expect gravity to do a bit better, and I still feel that you could probably do better especially in left spin, significantly so if you got lucky with destabilisation+doubletapping, but even then, you have to remember that in a tournament situation attack WILL do a lot worse as people watch their launch strength to avoid self KO and so on.
Things to look at from here:
I would like to see Gravity on TR145, see if that can outspin earth with any reliability. I would appreciate others trying out these matchups to verify my results (just make sure you launch properly) as despite what it may seem, I am concerned about defense potentially being underpowered - but none of the arguments I have read so far have been well informed, mostly just people way too used to the defense-friendly meta of regular MFB.
I'm curious to see how this combo fares against Beat, Cosmic and Jade, (metal fury), but that is more to see if those are overpowered rather than whether or not this combo is good, as if they do better than gravity they shouldn't be legal.
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