If a CS has defensive, stamina or both qualities shown it will most likely not show any attack qualities at all. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

If a CS has defensive, stamina or both qualities shown it will most likely not show any attack qualities at all. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

You were plenty clear, I just disagree.

Take Basalt BD145 CS and shoot it flat into the tornado ridge - the side rubber grabs the ridge and it runs like crazy and can KO blades that float up high enough (attack). After a bit the CS comes off the ridge and starts to settle down into the center. At this point it can still take hits without being auto-KOd (defense), and when it reaches the center it spins on the plastic tip with a high likelihood of outspinning attack types (stamina).

That's an example where 1 CS exhibits all 3 attributes in a single match.

Outspinning an attack is not at all relevant to a real Stamina type, really, that is basically mandatory for a good Defense bey.. I don't think it matters whether it can do it in a single match, though. It would probably be more beneficially by using different shots for all 3 types (if there is somehow a difference in launch between Defense and Stamina), but like I said, CS cannot do that. It has to give up one of the other categories.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Well it looks like we'll just disagree on this one, as I know in my beyheart of hearts that a run-of-the-mill CS can in fact exhibit all 3 behaviors against all kinds of beys - not just attack...

If we all saw eye-to-eye, this forum wouldn't need to exist.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Would be cool to get other opinions into the mix now: None of us will change our opinion right now, so it would be useless to argue.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Would be cool to get other opinions into the mix now: None of us will change our opinion right now, so it would be useless to argue.

... Kei to the rescue! I'm sorry it took me so long to get to this, everyone. I took a look at it every so often and all I saw were long paragraphs, which was intimidating given the limited amount of time I have right now to keep up with everything else on the forum LOL.

Anyways, I've gone through all of the posts in the past few weeks and will be responding to a number of them individually here. Forgive me if I bring up points that have already been addressed somewhere else.

Bringing back ScoobyDoo's post about Balance. I have mentioned this several times in the past, and I still stand firmly by it. The meta nowadays dictates that successful combos have few attributes merged in together. It's somewhat 'primitive' to just categorize them into the 3 (+1) basic types that we're used to.

The meta has become diffused so much that pure types rarely place in the top 3 (Other than attack that is)

Defense definitely needs Stamina to win, and in some cases maybe a little counter smash. Stamina needs to be heavy enough to be taking hits defensively while outlasting the opponent. In some cases, a little stamina for attack is preferred (Metal Flat or by way of not cleaning up rubber bottoms after each launch, etc)

This is where everything becomes tricky. Because, if you think about it, Basalt BD145CS is very much so a "Balance" type. Just consider the situation that Arupaeo outlined:

If a CS has defensive, stamina or both qualities shown it will most likely not show any attack qualities at all. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

You were plenty clear, I just disagree.

Take Basalt BD145 CS and shoot it flat into the tornado ridge - the side rubber grabs the ridge and it runs like crazy and can KO blades that float up high enough (attack). After a bit the CS comes off the ridge and starts to settle down into the center. At this point it can still take hits without being auto-KOd (defense), and when it reaches the center it spins on the plastic tip with a high likelihood of outspinning attack types (stamina).

That's an example where 1 CS exhibits all 3 attributes in a single match.

How is that not Balance?

How is Hell even a factor in attack types? Even before 4D beys, Basalt was still around and Hell couldn't push it around with such amazing efficiency or near that of Lightning or Gravity which are now left in the dust by most of the recent 4D beyblades. (man, they are just rolling out on beys which just completely destroy Basalt, it is ridiculous)

Just because Hell couldn't take care of Basalt via attacks with great efficiency, it doesn't nullify its attack properties. If you notice, Hell vs Basalt matches will most likely end in KOs than Outspins. Paired with CS, it exhibits stamina / attack properties.

This is why Hell is still relevant. It's not as dominant as it once was, but I can't recall how many times I've seen Hell BD145CS come out with the win via KO against something (like Basalt) that should have outspun it. It's a very tricky Beyblade to play against, as Uwik mentioned in one of his other posts.

Whether or not it is still worthy enough of a spot on the top tier list is debatable. Part of me wants to say "No" because of how far the game as a whole has progressed, but the other part is saying "Yes" because despite all of this progression, Hell continues to stick around to some degree at our tournaments in Toronto. Can someone else shed light on what the situation is like elsewhere in the world?

I only insist so heavily upon MF G. P. BD145MF because it is probably the combo I have the most overall success with in general. It serves very unique purposes, and I'm not entirely sure it belongs anywhere but "Balance", but it is highly proficient at what it does.

It is the only "attack type" that I would utilize in a tournament situation my first time out - not just because it works well, but also because it is much more easily controlled even with a strong launch than RF variants.

I still feel there is quite a lot to be said for the placement of MF G. Perseus BD145MF in the Balance section, however. It can stand up to all top-tier Defense threats, outspin most, if not all Attackers, and deal with Stamina types as if it were a pure Attack-type.

All other GP Combos do need to go, though.

Is there tests somewhere that demonstrate MF Gravity Perseus BD145MF's proficiency?

Can it really KO/outspin Basalt BD145CS?

Of course it should outspin Attackers, but ... allow me to make a comparison. Remember MF L Drago 100WF? Well, it was competitive long before you joined, so have you read about it? The concept with MF L Drago 100WF vs. Attack types was to evade them with WF's speed, so I can understand how that strategy can work to some degree, but how does it fare in this combination?

I'd imagine it does well against the prototypical AD145WD, 230D, etc. combos, but how does it do against TH170/230CS combos.

Personally, I would argue that MF L Drago Destroy BD145MF is superior. Now, I have not tested MF Gravity Perseus BD145MF myself, but I would estimate that L Drago Destroy has just about as much Stamina as Gravity does in Left Spin, equal–likely better–Smash Attack, and better Defense (due to it's weight and inclusion of rubber on L Drago).

Death is quite good for defense, possibly not as good as Basalt, but close enough. Death as a defense is much better than Libra and Earth.

VariAres is generally preferred I guess, but Blitz is quite good too. I personally prefer VariAres due to its thickness and wide diameter, more so than its dual spin ability.

This is the impression I've been getting. I don't have one yet myself, so how does it compare thickness wise to both Libra and Earth? And how much does it weigh, exactly? Hazel mentioned that it's a few grams short of Basalt ...? That, combined with it's apparently low recoil in Defense Mode (again, according to Hazel), has me leaning heavily towards the removal of Libra/Earth and the addition of Death.

I agree. Blitz isn't "bad", per se, but I would rather use something that can spin both directions and has larger, thicker contact points, than something that is as relatively thin as Blitz is. That said, I will admit that I have not tested Blitz extensively myself, so if anyone wants to come to Blitz's defense, feel free to do so.

However, I do have something to say in regards to the Balance category. Like Dan mentioned, it should be classified more as "Hybrid" than Balance.

Beywiki Definition of Balance is :

Balance is a Beyblade type that is used to classify a Beyblade which combines attributes from the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival.

Honestly speaking I find it next to impossible to have a single bey excelling in all the fields. Even Hell BD145 CS which supposedly has all the 3 traits at most exhibit 2 of the traits prominently at any one point of time (with a calm CS, its more Defence/Survival. With Aggro CS, its more Attack/Survival). It can do the job of all 3, but it heavily depends on CS condition.

Likewise for Uwik's recommendation of
Basalt/Phantom TH170/230 CS

It could KO but its definitely more Defence/Survival oriented. It does the job of 3 but at any point of time mostly 2 traits would be prominent.

Classifying it as Hybrid like Dan mentioned would be more appropriate.

The Beywiki definition of Balance says:

a Beyblade which combines attributes from the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival.

Not, "a Beyblade which excels in the three main types: Attack, Defense, and Survival".

Balance types are a jack of all trades, master of none. Whether that means they feature two types more prominently than one of the others doesn't matter as long as all three are present in some form.

The best examples off the top of my head are the aforementioned Basalt BD145CS, Basalt TH170CS/MF, and MF Hell Kerbecs BD145CS. Here is how MF Hell Kerbecs BD145CS breaks down: MF, BD145, and CS provide Defense. Hell, BD145, and CS provide Stamina. Hell and CS provide Attack. Sure, maybe it's defensive qualities are not exactly up to par, but they are there nevertheless.

(And guys, don't get smart and say "But every Wheel has "Attack"!", or "Every Bottom has "Stamina"!". I mean that a Balance type should contain them in some sort of cohesive way. For example, Blitz Bull 230RSF would not be a Balance type. It cannot attack, defend, or outlast anything in any serious way)

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How do you all feel about RB? Maybe it's not as good as RS defensively, but along with having, at the very least, "good" defensive capabilities, it also has surprisingly high Stamina.

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Here is a rough outline of what I feel the updated list should look like:

ATTACK

• Metal Face Lightning L-Drago 90/100/CH120/BD145 RF/LRF/R2F
  
• Metal Face Blitz Unicorno 90/100/CH120 RF/R2F/LRF
  
• Metal Face VariAres CH120/R145 RF/R2F/LRF
  

DEFENSE

• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/RDF/CS/MB
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Libra BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/RDF/CS
  
• Metal Face/Metal Face-Heavy Earth Bull/Kerbecs/Aquario BD145/GB145 RS/RSF/RDF/CS
  

STAMINA

• Phantom Bull 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  
• Basalt Bull 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/85 WD/SD/D/EDS
  
• Scythe Kronos 230/TH170/BD145/AD145/100 WD/SD/D/EDS
  

BALANCE

• Metal Face Hell Kerbecs BD145CS
  
• Metal Face-Heavy Basalt Bull/Aquario TH170CS
  

Blitz added to the Attack section.

Gravity Perseus removed from the Attack section.

The Defense section has been streamlined slightly: I removed 230 and TH170 because while they may be "defensive" in some respects, they're not purely meant for that purpose. I'm questioning GB145, but I thought some of you might argue that GB145RS is superior to BD145RS.

Earth/Libra will likely be removed soon, but before that happens, I want to hear some more testimonials regarding Death's proficiency. I haven't taken a look through the entire Death Discussion thread; have a lot of tests been posted for Defense Mode?

RDF has been added to the Bottoms for the Defense section. Do you guys agree with this? I do not have Death Quetzalcoatl yet, but after seeing Arupaeo use and talk about it at THE FIFTH BEY, I feel as if it deserves to be included.

Phantom added to the Stamina section.

BD145 added to the Stamina section.

Removed Hell Kerbecs from the Stamina section. Still not sure about MF Hell Kerbecs BD145CS.

MF-H Basalt Bull/Aquario TH170CS added to the Balance section.

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Please post your suggestions!

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Kei, I've never done tests with MFGPBD145MF versus MFHBBD145CS because I only own one BD145. However, I wasn't aware LDD had any synergy on BD145MF - though there may still be something to be said for the dual-spin capability GP has against weak-launchers. Keep in mind it is not just a TS combo, but a KO-capable combo, as well. I can 80%+ MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170/220 with it and 70%-ish TH195.

The Death Quetzalcoatl 125RDF article stub Kai-V posted has the weights of Death, and its total weight is 3 grams short of Basalt. A fairly large deal of testing by reputable members has been done on Death, in Defense Mode, all showing exactly the same thing - it's a super heavy Earth.

I agree with RDF's additions to the Defense section. Nothing more to say about it.

I still believe LLD should be ripped off of the list and replaced by Beat, or just not replaced at all.

Also, Kei, BD145 belongs on Phantom and Scythe's stamina track lists - most especially Scythe's, since the only scythe combo worth using anymore is MF Scythe Aquario BD145EDS, to the best of my knowledge.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Kei, I've never done tests with MFGPBD145MF versus MFHBBD145CS because I only own one BD145. However, I wasn't aware LDD had any synergy on BD145MF - though there may still be something to be said for the dual-spin capability GP has against weak-launchers. Keep in mind it is not just a TS combo, but a KO-capable combo, as well. I can 80%+ MF-H Basalt Aquario TH170/220 with it and 70%-ish TH195.

I still believe LLD should be ripped off of the list and replaced by Beat, or just not replaced at all.

I've never been a fan of Gravity, so maybe I'm slightly biased. MF L Drago Destroy BD145MF is good, actually. As long as you don't face a Basalt BD145 variant, it stands a chance of beating anything. The dual-spin capabilities of Gravity Perseus are worth considering though, I agree. I'm curious to hear how everyone else feels.

Like Blitz, I have not tested Beat extensively (I had always been a fan of Lightning, and now VariAres, so there wasn't much reason for me to test them lol), but based on what I've been reading, isn't it more situational? Though, it probably should be added regardless.

Also, Kei, BD145 belongs on Phantom and Scythe's stamina track lists - most especially Scythe's, since the only scythe combo worth using anymore is MF Scythe Aquario BD145EDS, to the best of my knowledge.

Forgot about that. I'll add them.

Though personally, Scythe isn't worth using at all anymore haha.

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It's dependant on track height, but it on GB145(the preferred track), it can handle BD145 and TH170 very well.

Low track is almost nonexistant, and for very good reason, right now - especially in Defense. So the things that put a wrench in Beat's gears are not a problem, and it will never be widely used enough for that to change.

Absolutely definitely throw Death on for Defense, though.

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Some manner of Octopus.

Kei: On the RDF front, I would advise holding off until we get some dedicated RDF testing, or at the very least put together all of the "other" tests that happen to use RDF for a meta analysis. I like the part, but want to make sure we have due consideration before elevation to the list.

I'm not sure how quickly I will be able to produce data, but the testing I would like to see in this area is something like MF-H Earth AD145 RDF as the base combo for testing, with tip substitutions of RS, RDF, and RB for comparisons against an attacker like MF-H VariAres R145RF (to probe for potential left spin weakness shown by RS).

The reason for the base combo wheel and track selection is to remove masking variables like a very heavy wheel (Basalt) or a powerful defense track (BD145) so as to expose as much as possible the actual performance of the RDF tip compared to its defensive counterparts/competitors. In the end we want to know how the tip fares, not the combo.

On something as lightweight as Earth, though, its performance record will be skewed horribly, against VariAres, I think.

You're underestimating how easily Earth is KOed, I think?

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Some manner of Octopus.

It's OK if wheels get KOd as long as they don't get KOd 100% which would render the tests useless. So to your point then, I think Libra would be fine as a substitute, or even Death if that seems to make more sense. I just don't want to use Basalt.

Why should we keep Earth on for Defense at all?
I'd be okay with Basalt, Death and Libra being the top three.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

It's OK if wheels get KOd as long as they don't get KOd 100% which would render the tests useless. So to your point then, I think Libra would be fine as a substitute, or even Death if that seems to make more sense. I just don't want to use Basalt.

Death would be the best one to use.

Vari would be 100%ing Earth and Libra.

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Some manner of Octopus.

I think that if Gravity should go, there's no doubt that Lightning should go as well. I'd rather have Gravity and no lightning, than have Lightning and no Gravity. (Although I don't think either of them belong.)

They both are nowhere near Blitz or VariAres, and I'm pretty sure nobody will disagree with that.

This is why Hell is still relevant. It's not as dominant as it once was, ....

Whether or not it is still worthy enough of a spot on the top tier list is debatable. Part of me wants to say "No" because of how far the game as a whole has progressed, but the other part is saying "Yes" because despite all of this progression, Hell continues to stick around to some degree at our tournaments in Toronto. Can someone else shed light on what the situation is like elsewhere in the world?

I still see Hell being used in my corner of the world too, but as you can probably guess, without great success. In honesty, Basalt would be a preferred choice to replace Hell in the BD145 CS combination, which is infinitely better anyway. To my knowledge, participants who use Hell is mostly due to their limitation of beys, not because of choice.

Personally, I would argue that MF L Drago Destroy BD145MF is superior. Now, I have not tested MF Gravity Perseus BD145MF myself, but I would estimate that L Drago Destroy has just about as much Stamina as Gravity does in Left Spin, equal–likely better–Smash Attack, and better Defense (due to it's weight and inclusion of rubber on L Drago).

I fully agree.

This is the impression I've been getting. I don't have one yet myself, so how does it compare thickness wise to both Libra and Earth? And how much does it weigh, exactly? Hazel mentioned that it's a few grams short of Basalt ...? That, combined with it's apparently low recoil in Defense Mode (again, according to Hazel), has me leaning heavily towards the removal of Libra/Earth and the addition of Death.

Initially, I felt that Death is not a good metal wheel. Attack and Stamina are bad, leaving its defense to be the only category left that is desirable from Death. Which, even then, is still below par in comparison to Basalt.

Death on low track (85) vs Attacker (145):
On Attack mode, it wins most of the time, but loses to BD145 variants, since the gap gets stuck on BD145 from time to time. So I switched to Defense mode, which worked better, but overall, I still get the general impression that Basalt is still better.

Death on mid track (BD145 / GB145) vs Attacker (145):
This is when Death's balance issue started to show. On Defense mode, it's still good, winning most of its battle. I then did mirror tests of Death BD145 MB vs Basalt BD145 MB, where Basalt won 100% via OS.

Death on high track (230) vs Attacker (145)
In a way, similar to Basalt 230's results too, so again, I did mirror tests of Death 230 CS vs Basalt 230 CS, again, Basalt won 100% via OS.

Overall: It's still a very good defensive wheel, from general observance of battles, it's still better than Earth and Libra. In regards, of recoil, personally, it's hard for me to notice anyway, unless it's recoil-heavy like Hell, or recoil-less like Earth, which is neither for Death.

The only reason Death should be on the list is when you take off Libra and Earth from defense, giving options for defense other than Basalt.

How do you all feel about RB? Maybe it's not as good as RS defensively, but along with having, at the very least, "good" defensive capabilities, it also has surprisingly high Stamina.

I honestly have mixed feelings about RB. It doesn't catch the Tornado Ridge as easily as RDF/CS. It's still in a ball shape, it skips off the ridge a little too easy for my liking. Also, worth mentioning, with just a little wear on RB causes it to go berzerk speed-wise, a little contradicting to the usual defensive bottoms traits that I'm used to.

RDF has been added to the Bottoms for the Defense section. Do you guys agree with this? I do not have Death Quetzalcoatl yet, but after seeing Arupaeo use and talk about it at THE FIFTH BEY, I feel as if it deserves to be included.

It's good. It performs like a worn RS, moves a bit like RSF with a little wider reach.

Yo, I think Lightning LDrago should be taken off completely: forgetting whether we like it over Gravity Perseus or vice-versa, it shouldn't be on the list anymore.

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shout out 2 kai-v 2.

The Complete Competitive HMS Resource

Kei: On the RDF front, I would advise holding off until we get some dedicated RDF testing, or at the very least put together all of the "other" tests that happen to use RDF for a meta analysis. I like the part, but want to make sure we have due consideration before elevation to the list.

I agree. Based on first impressions, I felt it was worth bringing up, so hopefully now that I have, we can get someone to do tests ASAP!

Why should we keep Earth on for Defense at all?
I'd be okay with Basalt, Death and Libra being the top three.

If Earth goes, I would say that Libra has to go as well. Although, after reading Uwik's post, I'm wondering, which has better Stamina: Earth, Libra, or Death?

I still see Hell being used in my corner of the world too, but as you can probably guess, without great success. In honesty, Basalt would be a preferred choice to replace Hell in the BD145 CS combination, which is infinitely better anyway. To my knowledge, participants who use Hell is mostly due to their limitation of beys, not because of choice.

You're probably right.

I honestly have mixed feelings about RB. It doesn't catch the Tornado Ridge as easily as RDF/CS. It's still in a ball shape, it skips off the ridge a little too easy for my liking. Also, worth mentioning, with just a little wear on RB causes it to go berzerk speed-wise, a little contradicting to the usual defensive bottoms traits that I'm used to.

I've used one of mine quite a bit and it doesn't have a tendency to go "berzerk" by any means. It moves around more, but nothing crazy like when CS tornado stalls. I think it's a competitively viable Bottom because it provides both good Defense, and decent Stamina (better than CS sometimes!).

Yo, I think Lightning LDrago should be taken off completely: forgetting whether we like it over Gravity Perseus or vice-versa, it shouldn't be on the list anymore.

What has caused Lightning L Drago's status to fall? A few months ago when Basalt BD145CS was much more commonly seen than it is now, it was still considered the best option. Yes, better Wheels have been released, but is it bad enough to warrant it being removed from the list? Cye expressed this opinion in the Lightning thread last month:

I agree. I think Lightning has more Smash than Gravity. I also think that Lightning is better than Vari because the recoil of Vari isn't a good enough trade-off for that extra smash, at least in my opinion anyway.

And I think it's a perfectly valid stance. What do you all think?

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I don't recall Lightning L-Drago having any combos capable of very consistently bringing down Basalt BD145 combos, and even if it had any, it definitely cannot do it as reliably as Blitz or Vari. It's an inferior MW, and things on this list are usually more or less perceived to be "equal" - if we're giving off the impression Lightning is fit to stand alongside Vari and Blitz, we're lying to people. Lightning may still have a dedicated fanbase, but I don't really think it deserves it.

Death wins Stamina matches, evidently, in a similar method to Basalt, though not entirely to that extent. It's definitely got more Stamina capability than Libra - I am not sure about Earth, but Earth is entirely irrelevant now regardless, due to its pathetic weight. The simple fact is that neither Libra nor Earth can withstand even the most pathetic attack combos involving Blitz or Vari.

I love Earth, and I didn't want to see it go, but Death is literally Earth with 10 more grams packed on to it. Libra is just not worth the trouble of obtaining anymore, since it is so thoroughly outclassed.

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Some manner of Octopus.

That stance seems a bit off to me as well. As far as I'm concerned a good attack wheel should have recoil - along with the weight and speed to make use of it in KOing opposing combos. Momentum, Newton's third law and all that...

Lightning is a good attack wheel and always has been, but it has been surpassed in Both performance and popularity, and I think its time is over.

Everyone remembers that recoil is the vector that goes backwards upon a collision ? I am not certain I understand why recoil would be good to have for an Attack type, or any type for that matter.

I think he was just using a blanket statement insisting that "what has great smash will have equal or greater recoil".

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Some manner of Octopus.

Theoretically, the recoil will never be the same amount as the smash generated, it will always be less, if the attacking bey is traveling faster than the defending bey.

All beys with great smash power will generate immense recoil also. I think that it's the statement Arupaeo was trying to convey. How the recoil is absorbed or dissipated is a whole different discussion, but nonetheless, all attackers should have recoils of certain levels.

OK, but recoil is a bad consequence, so you should be talking about smash then, if whenever you have recoil you necessarily have smash.