(Jan. 17, 2019  12:46 PM)ks123 Wrote: @[~Mana~], please test Hasbro Anubion A2. 2018 Estonia champion win using Anubion A2.

(Jan. 17, 2019  7:15 AM)Wombat Wrote: Guys, just an important thing to keep in mind: Burst Classic is only a name, it doesn't literally mean that only Single/Dual Layer parts should be legal for use. Functionally, the intent of this format is to create a balanced metagame focused on the Single and Dual Layer parts. If newer parts like Xtreme', Eternal, and Cognite C3 can exist in that meta without upsetting its balance, then they should be legal.

(Jan. 17, 2019  1:39 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.

I'm not sure if the banning Metal God Chips would really do anything, since finding a God Chip that fits tightly was more important than the ~0.4g weight increase you get from a MGC. I know I played around with sR briefly when I was testing classic stuff and it was still bursting a lot for me, what combos have you found that you think make it OP?

(Jan. 16, 2019  10:23 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: A noted concern, and something we thought about and tried for ourselves a little. Deathscyther's Burst Resistance isn't the best anyway and, with attack being goaded on quite heavily with how we've planned this out, we think it can avoid the banlist for now! But we'll be keeping an eye on it to see how it handles itself.

I will say though; I feel like TT Deathscyther technically softbans itself due to it's lack of availability and the number of them that people have that already have ruined teeth from when they were used years ago, haha.

I don't think Deathscyther is at risk for dominating at all. It may have some of the best Stamina in the game, but also has the tradeoff of being easy to burst (much like the TT Bearing). It's a good part, for sure, but not overpowered by any means, and we've also kept Acid Anubis and Guardian Kerbeus (two Layers which perform very similarly to Deathscyther) legal to address the teeth wear issue that Deathscyther does have.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: We should allow core disks but ban 0, 00, 7, 10, and frames. Maybe ban 1' (I don't have any experience with the part to know) and maybe unban 7. The main issue with dual layer format I found is the availability of disks being low. Allowing the weaker core disks (without frames) would help make the format a lot easier to participate in without causing meta issues.

Aside from the lighter Core Disks like 11 and 13 (12 should still stay banned so we don't have to deal with the Frame restriction imo) even things like 6 are about the same weight as Heavy. Depending on what combo you're using there's like at least 8 different non-core Disks that can be feasibly used, while everyone would just use 4 and 5 for the Core Disks.

Like I said before, I'm all for unbanning 11 and 13 and even allowing them to use Frames (since their main purposes are to provide LAD or support Attack Points, the former of which isn't terribly important with such a small left spin presence and the latter of which actually helps Attack more), but I understand the reasoning behind keeping all the Core Disks banned for simplicity's sake.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

Xtreme' and Hunter' (and Jolt' too when it comes out) will no doubt see use on KO Attack setups, but they're far from the only viable Attack Drivers in the game. Things like Accel, Zephyr, Iron, and Trans still exist for Mixed Attack, and there's a plethora of Drivers that can be used for Burst Attack as well (Yielding, Weight, Orbit, Needle). Not sure where you're getting the idea that Xtreme and Hunter are banned, though, since they aren't - they're just outclassed, though still  viable in this format with lighter, more agile combos. Allowing the Dash versions of such high-friction Drivers is crucial to promoting Attack usage in this format, since self-bursting was a significant risk back when most of these Layers were first being used.

I'd be comfortable with allowing Volcanic' and Merge', but I have to say that A', Z', and probably B' too need to stay banned. gK.S.Z' is capable of OSing A2.G.R, and even when I launched V2.K.X' against it so that they would collide head on along the Tornado Ridge, V2 would fail to KO or burst gK, or even self burst while gK barely skipped any teeth. If Z' makes Tornado Stalling so OP that neither conventional Stamina nor KO Attack (its 2 main counters) can beat it, then it should be banned. I'm kind of neutral about Ds', given it can really only be used well in opposite spin, its KO Defense still sucks, and the only 2 legal left spin Layers are pretty wimpy, I don't think it would do any harm to unban it, but I don't think it would make the game any more interesting.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: As for the discussions about drivers like Eternal, stamina isn't too good in Dual Layer format, so I think stamina could use the boost. Conversely, I think it would be interesting to consider if Xtreme gives too much power to attack (which is kinda why Atomic is banned; giving too much to defense).

(For some reason) Eternal doesn't have as good of Stamina as Revolve in same spin, so it's really not much of a threat there. I've also tested Dragoon Y.Et and found that dedicated KO Attackers like V2 and X can take it out without much issue. Sure, it can outspin a good amount of right spin stuff, but I don't think it's any more worrisome than, say, Meteo L-Drago in MFB Limited.

If anything, I'd echo ~Mana~'s concerns about the Hasbro Octa as well - if Dragoon F's slopes are as tight as KJ and bladekid claim, then it's probably going to be relatively tight on Octa, which could make it really difficult to burst on top of being difficult to KO (thanks to Octa's weight) and OS... I don't really think the TT Octa is an issue though, since again the only Layers that can really abuse it are about half its weight.

(Jan. 17, 2019  10:52 PM)Clfjmpr Wrote: Question, for the God layers that ARE permitted, yes or no to God chips?

(Jan. 17, 2019  1:39 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.

(Jan. 18, 2019  12:23 AM)Shindog Wrote: I think banning all God layers just make the format so much easier to understand and get into.  New players may get into this.  Allowing a few underpowered God layers to find some use isn’t really worth complicating thing in my opinion.

(Jan. 18, 2019  12:33 AM)AirKnightMare Wrote: Wow, a lot of info to catch up on & read. Thank you all for the comments!
On the final Burst Classic - New Format (Including Change Log) Rule Overview - it does not say God chips are banned.
Is there any way someone could link to a list/photos with names of what IS allowed?
I have some very new bladers showing interest & want to be clear on each format.
Excited to attend the Classic Tournament next weekend in Virginia!

Quote:

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

Xtreme' and Hunter' (and Jolt' too when it comes out) will no doubt see use on KO Attack setups, but they're far from the only viable Attack Drivers in the game. Things like Accel, Zephyr, Iron, and Trans still exist for Mixed Attack, and there's a plethora of Drivers that can be used for Burst Attack as well (Yielding, Weight, Orbit, Needle). Not sure where you're getting the idea that Xtreme and Hunter are banned, though, since they aren't - they're just outclassed, though still  viable in this format with lighter, more agile combos. Allowing the Dash versions of such high-friction Drivers is crucial to promoting Attack usage in this format, since self-bursting was a significant risk back when most of these Layers were first being used.

I'd be comfortable with allowing Volcanic' and Merge', but I have to say that A', Z', and probably B' too need to stay banned. gK.S.Z' is capable of OSing A2.G.R, and even when I launched V2.K.X' against it so that they would collide head on along the Tornado Ridge, V2 would fail to KO or burst gK, or even self burst while gK barely skipped any teeth. If Z' makes Tornado Stalling so OP that neither conventional Stamina nor KO Attack (its 2 main counters) can beat it, then it should be banned. I'm kind of neutral about Ds', given it can really only be used well in opposite spin, its KO Defense still sucks, and the only 2 legal left spin Layers are pretty wimpy, I don't think it would do any harm to unban it, but I don't think it would make the game any more interesting.

(Jan. 18, 2019  2:04 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Accel and Iron aren't viable. They're heavily outclassed by Destroy. Zephyr and Trans are used more in balance type customs, not attack. Plus Dash drivers just add massive powercreep and price to what is a legacy format, where people who already have a decent amount of parts should be able to participate without an issue rather than having to buy expensive limited beys.

Attack was already strong in Dual Layer format. There's no reason to buff them with Dash drivers at all.

(Jan. 17, 2019  11:52 PM)The Supreme One Wrote:

(Jan. 17, 2019  1:39 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.

Agreed. To encourage the use of pre-God layers I would say that Metal God Chips shouldn't be legal. I'm also in favor of no longer allowing both Regulus layers (or simply banning God layers altogether) after hearing about some of the tests that have been conducted.

(Jan. 18, 2019  2:12 AM)The Supreme One Wrote:

(Jan. 18, 2019  2:04 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: Accel and Iron aren't viable. They're heavily outclassed by Destroy. Zephyr and Trans are used more in balance type customs, not attack. Plus Dash drivers just add massive powercreep and price to what is a legacy format, where people who already have a decent amount of parts should be able to participate without an issue rather than having to buy expensive limited beys.

Attack was already strong in Dual Layer format. There's no reason to buff them with Dash drivers at all.

That doesn't really make sense. X' and Hn' might come with limited Beyblades but they're no more expensive than plenty of Takara Tomy single and dual layers these days. Attack can still get shut down by a number of stamina set-ups - in fact I'll post a testing compilation when I have the chance later, but earlier I was having trouble getting Deathscyther D2 and Shelter Regulus to be bursted or KO'd by attackers at all.

(Jan. 17, 2019  2:09 AM)AirKingNeo Wrote: I gotta say Mana, I really liked the idea in the first place for a Dual Layer format, and I gotta hand it too you for making the idea possible.

The banlist and format are mostly what I thought it would be, though a few things surprise me (Hasbro J2 ban, kS unban) which I think are definite possibilities of things that may or may not be overpowered that I overlooked when I tried making a proof of concept. That said, there are a few things I'm concerned about.

We should allow core disks but ban 0, 00, 7, 10, and frames. Maybe ban 1' (I don't have any experience with the part to know) and maybe unban 7. The main issue with dual layer format I found is the availability of disks being low. Allowing the weaker core disks (without frames) would help make the format a lot easier to participate in without causing meta issues.

Xtreme' and Hunter' not being banned is a serious issue. It makes them the ONLY viable attack drivers and makes bursting occur extremely less. It also makes the rule inconsistent with game balance. Xtreme and Hunter are two the BEST attack drivers in the game, but somehow only their Dash counterpart is allowed? Destroy', while it would be a really good driver, wouldn't break the game entirely due to the lack of left spins (I tried Dragoon Phantom with Ds', it doesn't work.) Volcanic isn't a good driver, but it sure is one of my favorite. No reason to ban Volcanic'. Unsure about Zeta'; would need to compare its performance compared to Orbit. Similar argument for Volcanic' applies to Accel', Merge', and Blow'. A similar argument for Destroy' (but on a lesser level) applies to Zephyr'.

My opinion is that dash drivers have absolutely no place in a Classic Format. If you allow them at all, the ruling shouldn't be so inconsistent that is bans all but the very best ones.

As for the discussions about drivers like Eternal, stamina isn't too good in Dual Layer format, so I think stamina could use the boost. Conversely, I think it would be interesting to consider if Xtreme gives too much power to attack (which is kinda why Atomic is banned; giving too much to defense).

I don't care if newer layers that are weak are allowed (the topic was the dual god beys). I think it's more important to have a diversity and balanced meta than preserve the "Classic" idea, but that doesn't mean to abandon the Classic idea. I'd probably allow Bloody Longinus (no level chip) and maybe Hasbro's Turbo layers in a god layer format.

EDIT: Specifically talking about Shelter Regulus, the layer is fair and very burstable as long as you ban Dash drivers.

(Jan. 18, 2019  12:29 AM)The Supreme One Wrote:

(Jan. 18, 2019  12:23 AM)Shindog Wrote: I think banning all God layers just make the format so much easier to understand and get into.  New players may get into this.  Allowing a few underpowered God layers to find some use isn’t really worth complicating thing in my opinion.

I'm conflicted because I agree that banning all God layers simplifies things, but at the same time I worry about the ease of obtaining single and dual layers (not to mention that a few are just plain bad and there is no reason not to permit them). I wonder what the perspective of other new players is on banning all God vs allowing a few underpowered layers to be used.

(Jan. 17, 2019  1:39 AM)~Mana~ Wrote: Good question! Given that God Layers already have a sizeable weight advantage in this format, I'd say they shouldn't be able to use Metal God Chips. @[Wombat], @[The Supreme One]; thoughts?

Though I'm increasingly concerned about including God stuff altogether, especially after testing stuff tonight ready for the weekend. Shelter Regulus inparticular is perhaps a little too good for this format honestly; it's sizeable weight advantage helps it take the center over Single/Dual Layer Beys, and it can handily Burst some attackers as well. Not a good trait to have for balancing...

Shall test some more tomorrow to see if there's a decent solution, but I'm not too optimistic unfortunately.

(Jan. 18, 2019  8:37 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: @[kjrules17], any comments on D2?

(Jan. 18, 2019  8:37 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: Yeah, mine is...more resistant than I thought it'd be? But I don't have a Hasbro Orbit to test the staple D2GO and see how much of an actual issue it really is. @[kjrules17], any comments on D2?

On another note; Wolborg testing was...fun. Lemme talk you through my thought process, as I went into this optimistic given it was being hyped up.

---

Wolborg Heavy Xtreme vs Shelter Regulus Gravity Orbit
(Yes, Xtreme, not Dash. My Xtreme' is very badly worn by now, so I unboxed a brand new regular Xtreme for this test)
WB: 0
sR: 10 (10 OS)

WB Average Clicks: 0.3
sR Average Clicks: 0.9

WB Win Rate: 0%

"I thought Wolborg Xtreme was supposed to deal with it? Maybe the wrong Disk?"

---

Wolborg Quarter Xtreme vs Shelter Regulus Gravity Orbit
WB: 1 (1 Burst)
sR: 9 (9 OS)

WB Average Clicks: 0.7
sR Average Clicks: 1.6

WB Win Rate: 10%

"Better, but still not good enough. Maybe stationary?"

---

Wolborg Heavy Revolve vs Shelter Regulus Gravity Orbit
WB: 1 (1 OS)
sR: 4 (4 OS)

WB Average Clicks: 0
sR Average Clicks: 0

WB Win Rate: 20%

"Boooorrring, not continuing this. This doesn't help with the problem of Bursting like I'd hoped. Back to mobile."

---

Wolborg Heavy Destroy vs Shelter Regulus Gravity Orbit
WB: 1 (1 OS)
sR: 4 (3 OS, 1 Burst)

WB Average Clicks: 1.2
sR Average Clicks: 0.6

WB Win Rate: 20%


"This was a mistake. Let's go simpler."

---

Wolborg Heavy Destroy vs Shelter Regulus Gravity Orbit
WB: 4 (4 OS)
sR: 6 (6 OS)

WB Average Clicks: 0.2
sR Average Clicks: 0.8

WB Win Rate: 40%

"Interesting to see it better than Destroy, but still no KOs or Bursts. This needs to go."

I don't know who decided Wolborg was great for attack? But from what I can see, it really isn't, at least against sR anyway. Please look forward to a last-minute Classic ruling update tonight, haha.

(Jan. 18, 2019  9:19 PM)kjrules17 Wrote:

(Jan. 18, 2019  8:37 PM)~Mana~ Wrote: @[kjrules17], any comments on D2?

Haven't really done much testing with Doomscizor D2. I'll get to it soon though.

• Shelter Regulus & Regulus R3 are now banned from Burst Classic. (Regulus was proving to be too much of a pain to KO or Burst due to its size and weight, providing an option which upset the weight balance of this format.)
  
• Metal God Chips may no longer be used on God Layers. (You may still use other God Chips for now, though we shall be keeping an eye on this ruling over time)
  
• KOs are now worth 1 point in preliminary rounds. (1 point is a more suitable starting ground while we figure out how frequent each win condition happens. We may revert his change later on if KO needs an incentive)